GOTM23 Succession Game [civ3]

Sounds good to me

Of course there is a risk with this, if the AI thinks its civ is stronger than you then you have to pay them for the peace deal, or you have to declare war on them. No going back, so once you have decided to do it and find that they want something for peace renegotiation you have to accept it or you have to declare war. Generally if the military advisor says we are strong compared to them then I do it.

Smackster

Peace renegotiation was discussed a bit during Moonsinger's excellent trading training exercise a while back.

You can pretty well eliminate the risk by ensuring that you only renegotiate with weaker civs. The key to this is to carefully check your relative power value vs. the civ you are thinking of renegotiating with, using the Power histogram. Size matters!

Right now we could renegotiate peace profitably and confidently with any civ, as we have the highest power rating. Rome comes closest, but we are also safely higher than them. I marked off the edge of a piece of paper against the bottom of the histogram to compare them. If there's ever any doubt then you can still go for it, as in the worst case you'll only lose a little on the deal.

Here the log of my eleven turns (missed an update of my turns count in the log).

Turn 0 - 570 BC

Some MM of cities including rush Basra's temple (expand to keep Carthage at bay) and switch to warriors * we need bodies for the coming barb rush * and switch Diriyah to settler * its crowding other cities and has little shield potential - use as worker farm *. Use a Tax Collector in Madinah (its not growing anyway without aquaduct) as well as Diriyah (we don't need extra science).

Switch Alexamanis tan & Kufah to Spearman (barracks only useful in cities with good shield production or potential like Jeddah).

Drop science to zero (we will trade the next two techs when we are ready for Middle Ages). Note later up Lux rate to activate WLKD and counteract corruption.

Follow Smackster's advice and renegotiate MA's with Carthage (25g), Spain (12g) & France (24g).

EOT

Turn 1 - 550 BC

Madinah : Worker - worker (MM for 1 turn at no growth).
Kufah : spearman - spearman
Basra : Temple - warrior

Zulu complete Oracle in Zimbabwe
Barb rising near Dhahran - too soon (Rome has reached Middle Ages) !

Trade : Egypt Monarchy for Construction, Rome Monarchy for Currency & Persia Construction for WM + 20g. Research Engineering @ 40 turns (& trade for other which AI usually favours)

Move swords from Sogut > E
Found Akaba in south. Move sword S from Basra and replace with sword from Madinah.
Move workers from Madinah & near Makkah (completed mining) north to mine olives near Jeddah & road to new northern city.
N Settler > E > NE > N, follow with sword from Damascus.
Move warriors from Jeddah & Kufah to Makkah for upgrade to sword
Shuffle swords / spearmen south through cities of Riyadh / Alexmanistan / Dhahran to release 2 swords from Dharhan > S towards bards
Aghhh moved sword off mountain by mistake.
Move swords near Sogut SE & road with worker. Move 2nd worker > SE (gap to be filled by city as earlier recommended ).
Move S scout > N > NW to avoid barb & Otto warrior.

EOT

Sword kills 9 barbs before his glorious death.
Indians want WM trade (done).
Trade Construction to Spain for 80g + WM

Turn 2 - 530 BC

Madinah : worker > N > E > E - horseman
Diriyah : settler > E > SE > E - settler
Settler & sword >N from Kufah (spot Otto warrior to NE) sword from Damascus > NE > E > NE to Kufah
Sword > S towards Akaba, sword > NW to defend Basra
Continue swords towards Iznik & scout located archer.
S scout keeps out of way.

EOT

Diplo : Trade Construction to India for WM + 20g
Makkah : settler > E - settler

Turn 3 - 510 BC

Move troops to cover barb rising & towards Iznik. Kill Otto warrior NW of Iznik (Rome has galley).
Settler > N to hill (city location), Sword > N, sword from Kufah > NE to find / kill Otto warrior.
S scout sees barbs from coastal camp but runs into original barbs (will they attack Otto cities ?)

EOT

Ottomans seek peace - not yet.

Barbs kill S scout.
Najran : warrior > SE - warrior

Turn 4 - 490 BC

Diplo : Trade Rome WM + 30g for worker (limit his development, increase ours) send to Basra to road south.

Gather troops round Iznik. Send swords S after barbs & continue shuffling troop around.
Found Mosul - spearman (in North) Sword > to defend
Sword > SE after Otto warrior heading for Bagdad + sword > NE > NE from Riyadh.

EOT

Otto warrior attacks sword & dies.
Otto archer kills sword near Iznik

Turn 5 - 470 BC

Diplo: Trade France Currency for WM + 20g
Found Samarra on flood plain W of Sogut (defended by spearman)
Rush barracks in Jeddah & warrior in Sogut.
Attack & kill archer. Attack on Iznik loses sword
Sword reaches Akaba

EOT

Sogut : warrior - warrior
Madinah: horseman > E > E > SE > E - horseman
Diriyah : worker > E > SE - worker
Jeddah ; barracks - horsemen

Turn 6 - 450 BC

Diplo :

Lose sword, kill 1 spearman attacking Iznik. Its being a tough nut .
Move sword near Bagdad towards Bursa
Start mining Olives around Jeddah.
Build road south of Nairan

EOT

Zulu sue for peace -reject for now as they have little to offer.
Ottomans sue for peace - reject for now as they offer little.
Rome demands WM + 50g - ignore so they declare war and advance on workers. Intend to kill off their warriors with our swords and quickly sue for peace if possible.

Makkah: settler - settler
Damascus: sword - sword Bagdad: Spearman - horseman

Turn 7 - 430 BC

sword nr Bagdad > NE, warrior > S > SW > SW (to Riyadh for upgrade)
move troops east.

2 swords kill roman warriors (reg. promoted to vet.)
worker irrigates plain N of Dhahran, settler > S towards horses
Q where have the barbs gone ?
sword in Samarra > SE > SE covering worker. Move 2nd worker (completes road) > W for protection of sword.

EOT

Weak sword killed near Sogut
Ryihad : spearman - swordsman
Najran : warrior > S > E > E - sword, Basra: warrior > N - warrior


Turn 8 - 410 BC

Diplo: trade France Monarchy for WM + 20g

Switch Sogut to spearman & rush (roman warriors to N).
Move troop towards Sogut.
Move sword & settler (s of Dhahran) S (single barb), workers continue road

EOT

Barb killed by sword
Romans approach Sogut but Sogut : Spearman - spearman
Madinah: horseman - sword
Diriyah: worker > E > S - worker

Turn 9 - 390 BC

Trade WM to Egypt for WM + 7g, India for 6g, Spain for 6g, France for 4g

1st settler S with Sword, 2nd Settler towards Sogut. Sword towards Iznik, Elite sword nr Iznik kills Roman warrior.
Keep moving troops towards the east

EOT

Turn 10 - 370 BC

Trade India WM for 6 g (keep them poor)

Roman Archer killed attacking Sogut, Spear becomes Vet.
Romans crossing mountains from heartland.
Barb horseman in South.
Palace improved
Cover worker in jungle with spear from Kufah, cover Kufah from Damascus.
Warrior reaches Madinah for upgrade.
Worker irrigates FP by Samarra.
Fortify sword by Bursa until 2nd arrives.
Fortify sword with S settler, join with 2nd sword, move sword S from Dhahran
Close troop up to Iznik.

EOT

Makkah: settler - settler (you may wish to change)
Alexmanistan: Spearman - sword
Kufah: Spearman - sword
Akaba: warrior (fort) - warrior

Turn 11 - 350 BC

Move 2 words nr Iznik onto mountain & spearman to hill. Horseman retreats.
Switch Sogut to sword & rush
Barb horseman killed attacking 2 sword & settler who move SW, workers move s to continue road with sword
2 workers near Bagdad > NE joint worker to road/ mine plain
sword near Bursa kills barb horse.

EOT oops Taken one turn too many - didn't keep track of turns

Not the progress of conquest I hoped for although barbs gave little trouble (& no promotions). Rome has attacked us but we are killing them off quite easily - let them come onto our ground and continue to kill them (less to defend later).

Kept turning out swords and a few horses which are moving toward Sogut area. Settler (with 2 sword as escort) has nearly reached site for city by horses / spices (still to cross river + eliminate barb camp) with further sword + horse on way.

Couple of swords near Bursa can take that out.

Generating warriors in Basra & Akaba who can be cycled back for upgrade on road connected (3 workers on the job) - rushed warrior in Basra to get another started before road complete.

Settler sitting in Samarra waiting for sword escort. Can build city near Iznik or on S coast (by fish / goats) to block peninsula.

Jeddah now has 3 olives mined for shield production - use to build swords / horse ?

OnDiplomatic front next player can make peace with Zulu or Ottomans but little to gain. Minor trades of WM & older techs kept some money coming in before for next phase of techs from Ais complete. Pursued less popular engineering at 40 turn pace.

More of the same I think.

File too big so uploaded Zipped file here >
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23_350 BC-SAV.zip

and map view here >
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/350_BC map.jpg

File too big so uploaded Zipped file here >
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23_350 BC-SAV.zip

and map view here >
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/350_BC map.jpg

oops should have given it full pre-fix

Corrections
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23_350_BC-SAV.zip
and
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/350_BC_map.jpg

upload doesn't like spaces.

Thanks. I've got it. I'm off to bed right now - heavy day tomorrow. I'll play my ten on Monday evening UK time, so with luck, if he's available, Smackster can pick it up later the same day in Boston.

AlanH (playing on Monday)
Smackster (on deck)
Karasu
Alweth
MacBaldrick

@MacBaldrick: Sounds like you were enjoying yourself. The eleven turns brings us to a nice round number for now . I'll try to pick it up and follow in your warlike footsteps.

URLs never have spaces in them - those were underscores. It's safest to view the uploads5 direcory listing and right (or control) click the link to your file in case it gets renamed by the server, then you can copy it to the clipboard and paste it into your post. For the other team members, the save is at:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/SG23_350_BC-SAV1.zip

and I've re-shot the map and scaled it to fit the forum page:

I had a look at the map, to take the heat of us from Rome, consider declaring peace with Otto for an alliance with them against Rome. From the look of the Roman archers there is a good chance they'll divide their attacks. If the Romans take Izmik then we can take it back.

Yes.
I was thinking exactly the same thing as Smackster. Try to take Iznik first, of course, then offer peace to the Ottomans and ally with them against Rome (you can check some other nation as well, of course... )
All those cities will be ours anyway.

I haven't checked the save, but I would consider sending as many swordsmen as possible towards Rome to make sure they don't connect the Irons. Let's also try fishing for leaders, as we haven't started prebuilding for anything yet.

We should also stop building Swordsmen and start on Horsemen as soon as possible.

We seem to be making good progress overall, but I am growing a bit concerned over the FP. It would be ideal to have two productive cores and some horsemen already when we hit our Golden Age...

If you look at the map, you'll see about 5-6 Romans right next to Iznik, so if we declare peace right now and move our troops away then they might attack Iznik. As we have been attacking it I assume it might be weak, MacBaldrick do you remember how many defenders you killed. This will give us time to gather our forces.

Note I see an undefended Otto city to the north, I assume barbs got to that one, whatever happens lets take that first.

Smackster

I only killed one spear in Iznik (should have waited to build up forces but equally don't want defence to be re-inforced).

Agee with Smackster sit back on mountains and let Romans take Iznik if they can with only archers (provided we can get Ottomans to ally against Rome).

Once new horse city is secure can move 2 swords to take out small cities on coast if Ottoman's don't play ball.

NOTE: When we defeat Rome they may try to slip a settler away on their Galley. Once we have coastal cities a few ships could be useful for jumping past mountainous terrain or taking out key resources deep in enemy territory but near coast.

I have an etiquite question for succession games. When I load the latest .sav (when its not my turn) what are the limits to how much I can look at. Now I assume that hitting end turn is obviously not allowed, and generally anything that is a one time hit, like spending cash for anything. But is it legal to bring up the diplomacy screen to see what is on offer, I mean you don't have to take the deal just see what is there.

For example I did this with Otto, and I know what they offer, I didn't take it I just looked at what the advisor said. I wont tell you but wanted to know how far you can push these things in an SG.

Smackster

I don't know of any formal etiquete but since anything you learn cannot be used for 40 turns (assuming you do not post any info or comments based on info) I think you should be free to do what you want.

As this is a learning experience I think you should be free to try different (short term) tactics to get a feel what what might have happened - the better to inform your own choices is future games. Take the current situation - assuming AlanH gets Ottomans to go to war with Rome & peace with us - what would have happened if we left thing and took on Rome alone for 5 or 6 turns ?

My view is that we should not click end turn on the current save, or do anything final with any negotiations. But it is ok to play with the diplomacy screen to see what they offer, without accepting the offer.

So I can bring up the dip screen with Otto, offer peace, and offer alliance with Rome, and all their cash. Without accepting it, I know what they will do.

I knew what they'd offer without doing that, as you usually get a lot from somebody when you take their capital.

Originally posted by smackster
My view is that we should not click end turn on the current save, or do anything final with any negotiations. But it is ok to play with the diplomacy screen to see what they offer, without accepting the offer.

So I can bring up the dip screen with Otto, offer peace, and offer alliance with Rome, and all their cash. Without accepting it, I know what they will do.

I knew what they'd offer without doing that, as you usually get a lot from somebody when you take their capital.

Click to expand...

I agree. It would be very difficult for a player to join in discussions about options it they already know the future outcome of some player decisions.

The key question is: "Can I do this wthout making an irreversible change to the game state?". You can do anything that's reversible, like looking at screens and trying out diplo options (your trade advisor tells you what's acceptable and what's not, so no irreversible commitment is needed to discover the possible deals). Hitting "Next Turn" is not reversible wthout reloading. Attacking a city and discovering the outcome is not reversible.

OK, so I'm pleased to announce that Otto are willing to offer peace for an alliance against Rome.

I also agree you must not do anything to the playing timeline.

My comments refered to exploring post-dated saves 'off-line' to see what might have happened (and where any knowledge gained is not applicable to the current succession game.

AlanH - I think Rome's military is about to bleed to death at the gates of Iznik before our gathering swords/horse deliver the knockout blow. With an alliance we should build that city on the coast to split the Otto empire in two and provide a base for operations against Rome.

Yes I think its good to go back and look at key decisions that were made to see what effect the alternative would have had. Although you shouldn't play too many turns, certainly less than we are up to and stop if anything is getting close to spoiling things.

So far in this game, I can think of two keys decisions,
1) Giving in to the Roman demands and seeing how quickly we can take the Otto cities we had planned. Not saying it was wrong just a decision that could have gone the other way, I would not have given them the money.
2) The decision we are about to make to ally with Otto against Rome. The problem being that if Rome does not take Iznik then we are stuck with Iznik in the way for at least 20 more turns.

I'm sure Alan has already played this now, but we clearly need a ROP with Otto. Oh and that is available in the peace if we need it.

Smackster

P.S. Still waiting for that save

Bad news, I'm afraid Smackster. I had a very long day today, fighting several very obstinate Windows systems for supremacy, and I'm not ready to do battle with the AI tonight. I hate Windows!

So I plan to hit it fresh in the morning. Sorry to disappoint, but I think I'd make some stupid mistakes if I took it on now. I'll probably make some different ones tomorrow, but at least I'll have done my best