SGOTM 15 - Unusual Suspects

Busy the last couple of days. Taking a look at now.

EDIT:
Agree mostly with kcd plan.

Thinking on VJ, maybe let the fight come to us instead of pushing Axe north. Barbs should spawn in between us and Hammy and hinder him if he choses to DoW. With walls (if we get attacked) and hopefully some religion spread and an archer or two, it should be safe until we get the Cats. Then we can go medieval on Hammy after Toku. In the mean time work on XP for our axes C1+Shock and C1+Cover. Foliage is rapidly disappearing the woodsman promotion benefits will be short-lived. VJ should also get the river tiles cottaged. We could use a bit more gpt.

Are we planning to Shrine with the Gpro in 7-turns or did I miss the discussion there?

Not a whole lot more to add.

Green from me - good luck kcd.

kcd_swede said:

Hej... I'm hoping the lack of discussion or green lights is due to server being annoying again. So I'm waiting for the moment.

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All the comments since your revisions have been positive, with just a few suggestions you are free to use as you see fit. You have a green from the team to proceed.

SteelHorse said:

Are we planning to Shrine with the Gpro in 7-turns or did I miss the discussion there?

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I think you missed the discussion. Actually, I don't think there was much discussion. kcd plans to settle him and nobody objected. iirc

hmmn, Hindu shrine is nice - less immediate gold but more culture (if we go culture) and spreads relgiion (if we had open borders). Settling or Shrining is fine with me. No Christian shrine.

green from me

kcd, we eagerly await a report!

OK... I see you are online. I am planning to play in about a half hour from now. I'll check again here before I start if there are any last minute advices.

1t from math.
Pillage stack in toku land ready to wipe one mine... Toku is willing to trade peace for peace now. I suggest we pillage that mine and take peace there. There is a sizable force from babylon consisting of 2axe, 2 bowmen, 1sword and 1 spear in Nippur, and 2axe and a sword over a worker on the next tile, plus one lone sword.

Best strategy is probably to retreat and build more units, and send more units north... after their long march south they won't like it, but not to worry... we'll just wip more.

Turn 85, 750 BC: Gandhi's Axeman 7 (Bollywood) (5.00) vs Barbarian's Axeman (4.33)
Turn 85, 750 BC: Combat Odds: 70.8%
Turn 85, 750 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 85, 750 BC: (Fortify: +5%)
Turn 85, 750 BC: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 85, 750 BC: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 85, 750 BC: (Combat: +50%)
Turn 85, 750 BC: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 85, 750 BC: Gandhi's Axeman 7 (Bollywood) is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 85, 750 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 20 (71/100HP)
Turn 85, 750 BC: Gandhi's Axeman 7 (Bollywood) is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 85, 750 BC: Gandhi's Axeman 7 (Bollywood) is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 85, 750 BC: Gandhi's Axeman 7 (Bollywood) is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 85, 750 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 20 (51/100HP)
Turn 85, 750 BC: Gandhi's Axeman 7 (Bollywood) is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 85, 750 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 20 (31/100HP)
Turn 85, 750 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 20 (11/100HP)
Turn 85, 750 BC: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 85, 750 BC: Gandhi's Axeman 7 (Bollywood) has defeated Barbarian's Axeman!
Turn 85, 750 BC: You have captured Vijayanagara!!!
Turn 85, 750 BC: The Temple of Solomon has been built in a far away land!

Turn 86, 725 BC: Gandhi's Axeman 3 (Bollywood) (5.50) vs Barbarian's Warrior (1.14)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 86, 725 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 86, 725 BC: (Combat: -75%)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Gandhi's Axeman 3 (Bollywood) is hit for 10 (90/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 39 (61/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 39 (22/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Gandhi's Axeman 3 (Bollywood) is hit for 10 (80/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 39 (0/100HP)
Turn 86, 725 BC: Gandhi's Axeman 3 (Bollywood) has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
Turn 86, 725 BC: You have trained a Archer in Drona. Work has now begun on a Christian Temple.
Turn 86, 725 BC: You have trained a Axeman in Delhi. Work has now begun on a Hindu Temple.

Turn 87, 700 BC: Euclid (Great Scientist) has been born in Bollywood (Gandhi)!
Turn 87, 700 BC: You have constructed a Hindu Temple in Delhi. Work has now begun on a Fast Worker.



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Also, we met Shakagawa t89 in the north. The south mountains are connected to Japan, btw.

Good time for a pause to reconsider what to do next... I think we really don't want to do any fighting until catapults, now.

BTW... we got a GSci who built an academy.

Coward! All that big talk about taking Osaka! Oh. 9 units defending it. Never mind. Good thing Japan will take peace now. It would have been nice to have explored that nook N of Vijay--is that where Shaka came from? And why fortify on the hill by the wheat instead of in the forest across the river? For now, I'd move the hill axe10 S of Hammy's sword so it can defend across the river. Maybe if we get a chance move it into a forest across the river; maybe also move up the axe in Vijay.

Drona's borders will pop in 10 turns--probably doesn't matter since we ain't going to flip Osaka with ~10 units in it. Before taking peace, pillage the mine and road we're on, and move the Wood2 axe SW and pillage that road. While Bolly is finishing the settler it can work the corn instead of a mine--we get 1 more commerce that way. Bolly needs more happiness to work more good tiles at some point--but if we need to whip units for Vijay then that's moot for now. Whoever plays next, cancel all worker actions first thing--we may want to move things around. Don't chop any forests outside cultural borders unless we're desperate; and it would be nice to save them for cats if we can. The Vijay worker should stop the cottage, road the wheat (which allows it to get to the forest tile without wasting a move), then chop the forest. (In traversing the forest tile it gets treated like crossing a river for some reason, so it soaks up 2 pts of movement.) We could try gifting some resources to Toku's that aren't actual war enemies. (Hah, no point in getting Alphabet any time soon--one Toku already has it but won't trade with us because we're Worst Enemy.)

What was Japan researching? It doesn't show now even though we have enough espi points to see--must have just finished something. The tile SE of Delhi needs only 1 more turn to finish the cottage. At the current research rate we'll have Construction in about 14 turns. Kyoto is on a hill surrounded by mountains N and S and rivers on both sides--gonna be fun to attack that.

Boy, I'd love to know if the Toku's are being as mean to other teams as to us.

Who's up?

Xcalibrator said:

What was Japan researching? It doesn't show now even though we have enough espi points to see--must have just finished something.

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Question: can we see research via espionage before we have Alphabet?

Deckhand said:

Question: can we see research via espionage before we have Alphabet?

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Yes. Remember, we saw he was researching HBR.

Edit: All bulbing paths lead through CoL. Until we get Alphabet, that's what a Great Sci will bulb. After we have that, the next good (not highly wasteful) opportunity will be after we get CoL, when we can bulb Philosophy (and found Taoism). If we get a Prophet, we can bulb CoL (I'd rather tech by hand) and then Civil Service.

If we get peace with Japan right away, our units will likely be teleported to inconvenient places far from our borders and without roads. Might as well pillage an extra turn (moving southwesterly) and perhaps sneak a peak at Kyoto before getting peace--in terms of time to get back to Delhi Drona it should be no worse than getting peace now, and maybe even faster, and there aren't any enemy units that can threaten us. We should start sending units from Drona to Vijay right away, though. The units currently in Japan will arrive far too late and should just garrison Drona. The FW by Vijay should cancel the cottage, finish the wheat road, and if it's safe then build another road NW of the wheat so our units can retreat faster and gain another 5% of fortification (or, optimistically, get our units up to the front faster). And if there's a road there, the enemy may stop to pillage it, buying us a little more time.

If Shaka came from the unexplored gap N of Vijay, we should think about building a scout to send up there when it's safe. We can also send an axe from Drona to kill Hammy's scout in our south.

So... Japan looks like a tough nut to crack. What are your thoughts on what to do next, kcd (and everyone)? Do we continue to Construction, flog our cities to build cats, and attack somebody? Or should we build lots of settlers to fill our land (and the western island, though we'd need Sailing) and get the magic 9 cities for a Culture win? With Math, we can chop them out pretty quickly, and then chop some more to get them on their feet. Or we could start building the AP, although my hyperactive "waste sensor" says it would be more efficient to wait until we had Civil Service/Bureau. If we're not committed to war ASAP, then we should switch to CoL so we can bulb CS (with a Prophet) or Philo (Scientist); only 6 turns to the next GP in Bolly. I think that quick growth, either via capturing cities or founding new cities, is the way to go. Which should it be? Is there a way to combine them--found fast-growing new cities as sources for more military units?

I propose that I continue to play to construction... this was simply a pause as per the PPP in the event we got DOW'd.

Its a good point to discuss, anyhow,because maybe REX and culture prep is better than punative war. But I doubt it... Toku hasn't lost units, so he just wants to buy time to make more, seeing as we can apply more force to the battlefield than he can at the moment.

Normally, his willingness to give peace for peace is an indication that our war is having success. If not for the Babylon DOW I'd never take this peace offer myself. But the DOW changes things. If we lose units, Toku could stop being willing to give peace. So I'd like to take peace this turn (or next turn at latest) since we need to defend the north now.

Yes, I think Shakagawa came through the gap in the north. I'm also looking at the Glance page and seeing that we are in big trouble if the AP gets Bhudist. We are also in big trouble if the UN gets built by anyone, eventually.

Don't recall seeing what Toku was teching... maybe it shows in one of the screenshots? If important, I can open an autosave from before to see what was showing.

Osaka is pretty well defended. It isn't worth a lot of units to take, either. So peace is the way, after a little pillaging and scouting as suggested.

Good point on the micro.

Most of our forests can be chopped in 1 turn now. We'll have math next turn, but should use forests either for AP or for catapults imo. We should continue building units at a pretty good pace... we will need them. They will all DOW us eventually, otherwise.

... to be continued...

The axe was moved to the forest hill earlier and still has all its movement for this turn. The axe on the other hill, likewise. I thought the second hill was better to kill barbs which bypass the axe on the forest hill... the forest across the river gives better defense but would have to attack across the river if a barb tried to sneak by. But all that is meaningless now that barbs (except for galleys in time) are a non-factor for us.

I don't like being on the hill when at war because it is too difficult to support him there. It would be advantageous to have culture defenses in VJ, so that maybe we should go into OR for five turns or longer when we are ready to mass-produce hindu missionaries.

I am thinking we should not get too carried away with military stuff at the moment, and we should divert to a more culture-compatible tech than construction as XCal suggests. We can defend without cats, and there is no point pressing a military conquest if we are committing to culture. So perhaps CoL is better option... and use GPro for CS-bulb or a GSci for Philo (only if Taoism still available). Build AP starting yesterday.

Toku isn't a tech threat generally, so we should have no problem staying advanced enough to defend a culture VC... but it will be a bit slower than normal culture VC due to the need for maintaining tech lead and keeping a substantial deterrent.

I also am afraid we are neglecting exploration at our peril. We won't know whether culture is a competitive choice until we see more. Even a slow Cav/treb domination will beat a fast culture vc in most circumstances. Another workboat to explore the north... and a stack for foray into babylonia is called for.

So we pause because we have to decide before starting the next tech whether we are served better by making sure the neighbors are hammered to insignificance or if we can live with the ones we have - the ones behind them aren't going to be any nicer. So... Constr or CoL? OR or Theo? Counter-attack with cats or defend at least until Maces?

the first question for culture VC: Where will we build a GArtistFarm?

Sorry I've been AWOL for the past week. It was just absolutely crazy at my job last week and I ended up putting in a lot of extra hours, and my wife was in a car accident this weekend (she was not hurt), so I haven't had much Civ time.

I should have time to look over things and post thoughts later tonight.

Trystero said:

Sorry I've been AWOL for the past week. It was just absolutely crazy at my job last week and I ended up putting in a lot of extra hours, and my wife was in a car accident this weekend (she was not hurt), so I haven't had much Civ time.

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Sheez! Puts my troubles with a squirrel in the attic in perspective. Glad your wife is OK, but sorry about the car. If you're up to it, your thoughts would be very welcome, Trys.

Here's a not very coherent collection of thoughts; maybe somebody can make a plan from it. kcd asked about a GP farm--Both Vijay and Drona have lots of food available, but Bombay would be left with very little food and Drona has a lot of hills/mines that can be used to build infrastructure for a GP farm so I'd go with Drona. It's too early to start farming GA's, though, and it's possible Japan might have a better site.

We need to found a city NE of the deer--Bolly will complete its settler in 2 turns. But... Drona could also build a settler very quickly with overflow from its about-to-be-finished temple and a Math-powered chop. If we were to settle a second city I'd go for 1E of the bananas. It would have 3F from the unimproved bananas and could share Bolly's corn, and it has the marble, some hills, and a forest in the initial 3x3 that could be chopped. It wouldn't be as immediately useful as the deer city, though, and would be a net drain on our finances for awhile. Drona could instead build a FW--we still have only 4. Delhi has started on one and can complete it in 5 turns; I think we desperately need it, particularly with another city or two on the way. Plus we need more cottages because we have no foreign trade routes. Did I mention that? (Ah, yes, in the future--see below.)

We have a lot of forests pre-chopped but it looks like there's not much immediate need for them. I think we need to build more cottages around Delhi (which is working an unimproved river tile that only needs 1 more turn to finish a cottage, and which will grow onto another tile soon) and Bolly. Research is very slow with no foreign trade routes--we need more commerce. We'll have Math next turn and (breakeven is 33 bpt @33% but we have some gold reserves) we can get CoL (60/546 beakers already done) in about 11 T and Construction in 15 (also 546 beakers but only a 1.2x prereq bonus instead of 1.4x for CoL). Alphabet (468 beakers) would take 10 turns. Why mention Alphabet? Because we need it in order to bulb Philosophy (for which CoL is a prereq) with a Great Sci--we're due another GP in 6 turns and the odds are 75/25% Sci/Prophet. I'd personally prefer a Prophet because we could bulb Civil Service (after we get CoL), which is more immediately useful and we don't have to divert to Alphabet to make the Great Sci useful. The odds are against a Prophet but we could build a temple in Bolly after the settler, run one priest, and maybe take off one of the scientists and put him on a (to be built) cottage. I'd cancel FW4's chop and start a cottage--maybe even cancel FW1 on the deer camp to help out.

From the above you can tell I'm favoring CoL over Construction, but maybe we really do need to get those cats ASAP. That's an awful lot of units in Osaka--9 there now and 2 or 3 more nearby that will probably garrison when we get peace. We really need to get a look at Kyoto to see what he has in there. If everything is in Osaka then we can go for it, but if he also has a major stack in Kyoto I think we need to wait for... awhile.

Yes, we're weak on exploration (which is why I wanted a Vijay unit to explore the possible gap N of there while we had a chance). But do we really want to risk a fishing boat to go north? I'd be worried even with a galley. But we can't afford the beakers for Sailing so I guess go for it. Maybe in Bombay?

Speaking of Bombay, once Vijay grows to size 2 (next turn) it should take the deer from Bombay. Bombay has no granary so it takes twice as long to grow as Vijay (which will have a granary as soon as the FW finishes that chop--make sure it goes to Vijay!) and it has weaker tiles to grow onto. Let Vijay grow grow grow. It should put 2 hammers toward walls this turn so they can be 1-whipped in an emergency--then go back to the granary. The FW up there should abort the cottage, finish the wheat road (and maybe extend it), chop the forest for the granary, and then work on the cottage again if Hammy doesn't have a stack parked on top of it. It looks like we will have time to get units from Drona up there before things get ugly.

Grow Drona and work more mines (and a cottage if we can find a worker with time). The FW to the SW should move NE to the forest inside our borders and chop it (once we have Math) toward a settler or FW (mentioned above). It's not necessary to road the deer camp when it's done--it would be faster to finish the partial road to the east (which will connect our new deer city).

We now have 4 worst enemies. Not sure how long before the other two decide to join in the melee. I think we need to commit to military now. Can we wait until Maces? Hmmm - 5 techs after math, how quick can we do this in. Cats 1 - tech after Math.

I would make peace with Toku. Maybe he backs off on more units. We can fast track to Cats. Get a good 8-10 out and have Toku then. In the mean time hunker down in Vijay. Build a big defense there. Walls, archers, moats, cats, dogs, kitchen sink, etc. Hope he comes at us. Hit is stack with a couple of Cats then a stack of Axes.

Need to keep the AI from meeting one another and trading. Even with no brokering Hatty has taken a good lead. Would be good to steal some techs from Toku, but that requires a spy and that requires Alpha. I assume that we can not sue for peace and tech without one of us having Alpha. Ugh.

Would really like the AP before one of the Toku* AI get it and starts global jihad. Any chance someone flips to another religion and builds it?

EDIT: If it looks like we can beat some techs out of Toku, perhaps Alpha after Constr. OTH - If the HBR is a forerunner of WE's we've got a real problem.

Looks like we have a pretty important decision to make here on the tech path. I don't really have a good idea on how this game is going to play out, so its hard to decide which course is better.

There is definitely going to be a Bhudist love-fest, and a lot of hate directed our way no matter what we do. That means no trade routes to speak of (though settling on the island helps a litte), and no tech trading partners. It also means that the AI will be trading up techs like crazy once they reach alphabet (even with no tech brokering). We are geographically limited at least as much as the AI we know about are. I think we have trouble just winning this game if we do not make ourselves twice as big as the standard AI (by eliminating one of the troublemakers in the process).

On the bright side, we can take peace and re-declare war as much as we want because they hate us anyhow...

Filling out our available land should be done without delay, but that hurts the near-term tech rate in favor of faster tech later. If we go CoL -> CS, thats a long time before we can fight back effectively. If they get cats before we do its a BIG problem.

Since I think getting the remaining good sites settled quickly is a good idea, I'd feel a lot more comfortable with catapults than with courthouses. Our cottages will eventually give us an edge. But if we think that holding off both neighbors simultaneously without LB's or maces or cats or xbows is possible, then it probably leads to a faster finish to go CoL than Constr.

If we go constr, the only way to make that pay off (imo) is to take down one of the neighbors. Complete and total kill (maybe in successive war/peace deals where we extort tech).

So I am leaning towards Constr -> Alpha. Once we have alpha we can build Research and get to anything we need in a pinch. The risk I see with CoL first is that we find out soon that we need something else more, and end up switching anyhow. Better just to get all the beakers where we are most likely to need them soonest.

Another thing... if we get a GPro we can hold him until CoL if we want. If we don't get a GPro, we have a more useful GSci. We will get at least one more before Philo can be bulbed (assuming construction first), so a GSci settled in Bolly would speed up everything a lot (roughly a 25% increase in our sustainable beaker rate, cutting tech times by the same).

BTW: exploring all the gaps should be no problem once we have alpha and can build spies. Before then, the closed borders will prevent land exploration.

I would propose using the woody axe to move 2 spaces (SW -> SE) and see what's there. Pillage the mine with the others, and take peace with Toku. Defend against Hammaergawa and get peace there before Toku DoW's us again, at which point we have cats and wipe him out.

Being twice as big as everyone else gives us enough advantage to be able to choose our VC and cruise to victory. Forget about founding Taoism... its better if an AI does that. Bulbing Edu is better. By the time we have Liberalism/Nationalism and can start the real culture push, we'll have 3 religions for a long time already. That will do, considering the amount of military presence we will need all game long.

We keep talking about the AP but haven't started doing anything about it. Our biggest threat there is the founder of Islam, who could well change religion before building AP, thus eliminating our worry. But having it Hindu would be a big plus. I think AP is our #1 wonder to shoot for. We shouldn't wait any longer. The worst that happens is we get cash and up our tech rate. Start building it in Drona, and finish it before construction when we start building cats.

BTW: the temple in Drona was 2-pop whipped (timed for growth to one unhappy face) and the overflow was intended for military purposes. But now that we can get peace on fair terms with Toku, I'd suggest using it for the AP assuming we have Hindu there (I forget... I don't think we do, actually). If not, then for a settler or another worker as XCal proposed. The fastest way to get AP would be to chop some.

Note, do not settle on a forest without cutting the forest first.

Not sure about the prio for road on the wheat, and with war up there I would definitly not try extending it.

The gap north wasn't explored because healthy units were sent towards south and only the healing units were left. After healing and moving to present locations, war was declared and game uploaded. So the gap exploration was not possible unless we risked a lone unit to do it, which wasn't worth it IMO.

Anyhow, the past is done. Looking to the future. I think we all agree that 2 settlers and at least 2 more workers need to be built. Should build them where happy cap needs to stall grow, rather than where they build fastest, though. Units and AP and missionaries in other places have higher prio.

Speaking of which, until we get cats we have enough 5xp units... I think OR should be switched to as soon as we start thinking "it would be nice to queue a hindu missionary here". Can wait until we have an unassigned queue then (some time around 1250AD?)

XCal... on the micro. I agree with most of your suggestions. Except I wouldn't chop any forest to completion unless its to build a catapult. OK, maybe 1 for the AP. Not for settlers. We don't need them that fast and we aren't ready to grow in some places.

I vote for Construction -> Alphabet, build the Apostolic Palace NOW, settle as many sites as possible, kill Tokugawa (he is closer than Hamuragawa and appears to have better land) and focus on a culture victory condition.

ChrisShaffer said:

I vote for Construction -> Alphabet, build the Apostolic Palace NOW, settle as many sites as possible, kill Tokugawa (he is closer than Hamuragawa and appears to have better land) and focus on a culture victory condition.

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Sounds good to me.

I'm also feeling like Toku will not go directly into war mode (red fist) for some time. During that time he will likely redistribute his existing units so that Osaka is less of a threat. That makes the ideal situation for using Osaka as a killing zone with CR-cats. Then when he exhausts his resupply of troops, we finish him off. But in any case, we want to leave at least 4 units down there in Drona. And we'd like to end the war in the north first, too. Maybe he suicides his stack. One can always hope.

Keep enough defensives in VJ to wait out Babytoku. I doubt anything happens much up there if we have enough axes. I think we'll lose the wheat, though.

Walls in VJ might be good, at least the 2 hammers to whip them in emergency is wise. Sooner we get hindu there the better defense we'll have, too.

As for planning, I'll be gone next week so if we can get a consensus on the plan from here before then I can p-p-play it, otherwise I can hand off. Or if our captain thinks I've done enough and wants to put someone else in for the next turns, that's also fine with me.

Excellent discussion! OK, I'm back on the war wagon--Construction next. There are a lot of details that need to go into the PPP, though, otherwise they'll be missed. I like the AP in Drona idea, but it doesn't have Hinduism, so we need a missionary for there. While we're in OR we can prebuild some axes and archers as SH suggested, then finish them when we're back in Theoc. Do we want to spread Hinduism to our new cities for the border popping and OrgRel benefits? But then they can't catch other religions. The deer site will have a full BFC even without a border pop so I'd say leave it alone. Bananas will have enough tiles to keep it busy for quite awhile so I'd say don't spread it there either. Since Drona doesn't have Hinduism yet (and we don't have another good tile to work if we grow) I'd put its overflow toward a settler; then work on the AP once we get another hill mined and have Hinduism. BTW, even with OrgRel it's going to take Drona quite awhile to build the AP; at an eventual 20 hpt (pop 7 working 5 mines plus sheep and corn, with 25% OrgRel bonus) that's 23 turns, though a chop or two will help a little and we could perhaps try directing some whipping overflow.

Delhi can finish its FW, but kcd says (and I agree) we could use another--I think Bolly will have to build it (plus a missionary and another temple to raise its happy cap).

Unless you're worried about Toku/Japan changing his mind about peace, I'd take one more turn of pillaging and movement. We can take out an extra mine and two roads with little if any delay in getting our units back to Drona.

Xpost with kcd: I wouldn't spread Hinduism to Vijay. Walls are cheaper than a missionary, stronger (50% defense vs 20% or 40%), and immediate, and we can decide at the last minute whether or not to spend the hammers. And it leaves one more city to catch another religion. So everyone agrees with the need for more cottages? I'm fine with kcd continuing, although I think we'll at least need a pause midway through Construction. I'm sure one of the Toku's will provide a good reason to stop anyway. Remember that we shouldn't rely on the red fists to indicate WHEOOHRN.