Guild Ideas

Heve I understood right? Is now partial affinity possible??? If so you can finally give units partial affinity to mana... That would be awesome!
But I'm not sure it is what you intended to say with that +0.1 Str....

No, it's not possible yet. We're considering adding it, as it would allow us to give Guilds a reason to horde resources without giving commerce.

Please, please, please add more to affinity.

Tags that would allow you to modify different aspects through affinity would be amazing!

I want to have a movement affinity for Air Mana, teleportation affinity for Dimensional, Ranged combat affinity, and, water strengh affinity! Please add in lots of different types of damage, please!

I want Sun to give Sun damage, not fire. Water, not Ice! Sounds great!

Ultimately it would be awesome if affinities could be used to modify any of a units stats, from movement, to offense/defense as a percentage, to base strength, to unique damage types and ranged strength. You could even have affinity for things like first strike chances, or maybe even city buffing stats

Yes it would be good if what each affinity did was not hard coded. Maybe a new xml for affinities is in order.

Interesting part here would be to open up the requirements to other things than resources


Consider a unit with the affinity for Priests in range

Grey Fox said:

Yes it would be good if what each affinity did was not hard coded. Maybe a new xml for affinities is in order.

Interesting part here would be to open up the requirements to other things than resources


Consider a unit with the affinity for Priests in range

Click to expand...

For now, I'd honestly prefer to keep it to resources; Adding tags for units in range opens it to cities, features, improvements, etc and just expands the system massively.

I'm thinking something like the CityEffect tag, for the setup; You'd have controls for Movement, Strength, Defense, Attack, Withdrawal, First Strikes, Defensive Strikes, Visibility, etc. Any tag on the unit, basically. More damage types to go with that would be feasible (DamageTypes take about two lines of DLL and a small amount of xml).

I DEFINITELY want ranged strength, as that lets me get rid of the python used for the Mechanos affinity.

Yeah I was mostly just dreaming potential - I think I have a fever so I blame it on that

Grey Fox said:

Yeah I was mostly just dreaming potential - I think I have a fever so I blame it on that

Click to expand...

I hope it is the saturday night's one

So I needed to think about this for a bit. I jotted down notes as I thought about it while I played last week. I took some time during the commercials of the hockey game today to organize and expand upon them.

I won't spoil anything about the game if you've TiVo'd it.

How you are describing guilds to me, and the context I'm placing it in, is that of one of the ruling or middle classes in the civilization. Something that has a large impact on all civic categories, like some religions do, but is a construct of mortals rather than gods. I see them very much as a parallel to religions. Different than civics, which depict more of the workings of the government and population, this is the working of organizations independent of the civilizations.

A few ideas I had about guilds in general:

• I like the idea of picking one guild as the primary guild, but if you are going to make major changes to how corporations in civ work, I don't see why having multiple co-existing guilds can be taken into account. Each guild can offer a bonus to the city it is in, and also have a cost. These can be different depending on if the guild is the primary one or not.
  
  As an example, lets say a city has two guilds, the Alchemists Alliance and the Bronzeworker's Union. Having the Alchemists as a minor guild in your city will give you +5%. If they are a minor guild the city gets +2. If the Alchemists are made primary the city instead gets +1 and you can purchase the poisoned blade promotion for a unit for 25 gold. The Bronzeworkers allow you to purchase a promotion that gives any unit type Bronze Weapons for 75 gold but costs -1 and -1 from the city in maintenance. If the Bronzeworkers are primary the city does not have any guild maintenance and can purchase the Bronze Weapons for only 25 gold.
  
  So the city will always have a science boost, whichever guild they go with. Depending on which guild is chosen as primary they can have +2 and cheap access to bronze weapons for all or +1, lose a hammer and commerce in the city but have access to both bronze weapons and poisoned blades at a higher cost each.
  
  The Bronzeworkers seem like a good guild to use early on in the game where health might not be an issue and 25 gold is great deal for the bronze weapons, especially if you do not have access to copper! Later on it might be nice to be able to purchase both promotions when money is more plentiful and the guild maintenance penalty is not nearly as severe.

• It makes sense that adjusting to a new guild would bring about a period of anarchy, one that I don't think the Spiritual trait should protect against. Switching to that guild should also not be as simple as flipping a switch. I think a ritual should be completed in a city that already has the guild. Perhaps the Organized trait prevents this anarchy. Perhaps the Industrious trait doubles the production speed of these guild rituals.

• Just as there are civs that cannot adopt religions, there should be civs that cannot adopt a primary guild. The D'Tesh and Xivan come to mind, since I don't see how guilds could exist under their rule.

• I don't like the idea of another race for a holy city. It also seems to me that guilds should be civ-independent. The guilds are, after all, choosing the civs they want to work with, not the other way around! It makes sense that the civilization that best uses a guild to have the headquarters. One way I can see doing this is having each city have a point system for each guild. Building a guild unit might grant the city X points, purchasing a promotion might grant the city Y, for every Z years the guild is primary in that city might be another point, etc. The city with the most points for that guild (more or less) should have the headquarters.
  
  As an example, lets take the Bronzecrafter's Union again. It was founded by the Khazad. Most of their units are axedwarves who are getting bronze weapons automatically, so they have not purchased very many of these weapons from the union.
  
  The Ljosolfar also have the union in their capital. The idea of bronze using hunters is very appealing, so they are buying a lot of weapons from the Union. It would make sense for the headquarters of the union to be in the Ljosolfar capital. The union deals a lot more with the elves, since the dwarves make most of their bronze weapons with non-union labor.
  
  Other factors might affect the movement of the HQ. Trade routes are good for all guilds as it lets them expand their influence and/or distribute their wares. They may be less likely to move from a city with more trade routes to one with less, or even if there already exists a trade route between the current and potential HQ. Guild HQs will quickly move away from a civ that does not use it as a primary guild if there is another civ that does. The crime rate of the city might be a factor for or against the headquarters moving there. Dead guild units might also encourage an HQ to move elsewhere. Events could increase or decrease points in cities. Guilds can be made to be very fickle.

• Conquering a city should remove most guilds from a city. When war comes and the ownership of a city changes hands it's better for the guild leaders to negotiate their new role from a safe distance. I could see why guilds focusing on skulduggery, subterfuge or legerdemain might remain. Likewise with cults represented by guilds (which in Erebus I suppose are religions where the gods are dead or just don't give anything back.) Maybe each guild has a separate chance to be removed by conquering. This number might increase or decrease depending on Civic choices and leadership Traits.

• Guilds should only be spread either deliberately by the city owner or through events. This, plus the "conquer clause" above will mean that the only way to get some guilds in your civ is to build them yourself with a great person. They should be very hard to remove. Again, I like the ritual idea, so a city must spend hammers (and suffer some anarchy) in order to change it's own guilds. Some guilds focusing on trade, truth, or freedom might not even be able to build this ritual.

• It will be hard to resist the urge to have parallel religions and guilds. Still, I see the Council of Esus and the Ordo Machinarium possibly having both. One representing the spiritual aspect of the religion, the other the practical.
  
  Care needs to be taken to ensure picking a guild given a specific religion or civ isn't a no brainer. Master upgrades for mounted units are great for the Hippus, but if they go this route with their guild they might be missing out on the benefits of the Guild of the Nine.

It already looks like you are leaning towards making this another category of civics, but looking over how I felt guilds should behave it seems to be best fit with another grouping of religions than civics.

The example guilds I used above are merely thought experiments. They are pretty crude and aren't meant to expand upon the guilds themselves so much as what I see their role is and how they would work. Here's a quick stab at the new Stonefire Guild:

Stonefire Guild

• Requires: Construction, Smelting
• Spread by: Great Engineer (consumed), Stonefire Apprentice (consumed, 25), Stonefire Blacksmith (consumed)
• Minor benefits:
  • +10% production of Forge
  • +20% production of Lighthouse, Monument, Wall, Well if access to marble
  • -1 -5%
  • +1 each if access to copper or iron
  • Can train: 100 Stonefire Apprentice
  • Can build guild ritual: Stonefire Dominance
  • Removes rusted promotion from units in the city
• Primary benefits:
  • +20% production of Forge
  • +40% production of Lighthouse Monument, Wall, Well if access to marble
  • -10% production if the Guild of Hammers is present in the city
  • -10%
  • +5% each if access to copper or iron
  • +5% each if access to gold or marble
  • Can train: 40 Stonefire Apprentice
  • Can train: 80 Stonefire Blacksmith (melee 0/2, can use bronze and iron weapons, can cast remove rust 10)
  • Can train: 160 Stonefire Master (melee 0/3, can use bronze, iron and mithril weapons, can cast remove rust 10, repair 20, wall of stone 40)
  • Can build: 400 Master Smith
  • Can build: 600 Master Siegesmith
  • Can build: 600 Master Shipwright
  • Can build guild ritual: Stonefire Unchallenged
  • Removes rusted promotion from units in the city
  • Siege and Naval units heal an additional 5% per turn

Milaga said:

So I needed to think about this for a bit. I jotted down notes as I thought about it while I played last week. I took some time during the commercials of the hockey game today to organize and expand upon them.

I won't spoil anything about the game if you've TiVo'd it.

How you are describing guilds to me, and the context I'm placing it in, is that of one of the ruling or middle classes in the civilization. Something that has a large impact on all civic categories, like some religions do, but is a construct of mortals rather than gods. I see them very much as a parallel to religions. Different than civics, which depict more of the workings of the government and population, this is the working of organizations independent of the civilizations.

Click to expand...

That is pretty much exactly how I see it, yes.

Milaga said:

A few ideas I had about guilds in general:

• I like the idea of picking one guild as the primary guild, but if you are going to make major changes to how corporations in civ work, I don't see why having multiple co-existing guilds can be taken into account. Each guild can offer a bonus to the city it is in, and also have a cost. These can be different depending on if the guild is the primary one or not.
  
  As an example, lets say a city has two guilds, the Alchemists Alliance and the Bronzeworker's Union. Having the Alchemists as a minor guild in your city will give you +5%. If they are a minor guild the city gets +2. If the Alchemists are made primary the city instead gets +1 and you can purchase the poisoned blade promotion for a unit for 25 gold. The Bronzeworkers allow you to purchase a promotion that gives any unit type Bronze Weapons for 75 gold but costs -1 and -1 from the city in maintenance. If the Bronzeworkers are primary the city does not have any guild maintenance and can purchase the Bronze Weapons for only 25 gold.
  
  So the city will always have a science boost, whichever guild they go with. Depending on which guild is chosen as primary they can have +2 and cheap access to bronze weapons for all or +1, lose a hammer and commerce in the city but have access to both bronze weapons and poisoned blades at a higher cost each.
  
  The Bronzeworkers seem like a good guild to use early on in the game where health might not be an issue and 25 gold is great deal for the bronze weapons, especially if you do not have access to copper! Later on it might be nice to be able to purchase both promotions when money is more plentiful and the guild maintenance penalty is not nearly as severe.

Click to expand...

Not sure if you misunderstood something here.... You won't have just one primary guild. You'll have several 'Active' guilds, and possibly some 'inactive' guilds... In this case, it is far more like Civics than Religion, in that you'd have multiple categories and be able to select one from the category.

Having minor effects (but higher costs) from an inactive guild could work. My main concern is that you should not be able to utilize two competing guilds in two different cities, as that encourages micromanagement and is just 'gamey' to me. If you support one guild out of a competing set, the others do not deal with you easily.

Milaga said:

• It makes sense that adjusting to a new guild would bring about a period of anarchy, one that I don't think the Spiritual trait should protect against. Switching to that guild should also not be as simple as flipping a switch. I think a ritual should be completed in a city that already has the guild. Perhaps the Organized trait prevents this anarchy. Perhaps the Industrious trait doubles the production speed of these guild rituals.

Click to expand...

I agree about Spiritual, and Organized preventing the anarchy could be interesting.

I'm not sure on the Ritual idea; It's a civ-wide mechanic, so requiring one city to complete the ritual is a bit odd. I could easily see requiring a 'Pledge' in the form of a high gold cost, though.

Milaga said:

• Just as there are civs that cannot adopt religions, there should be civs that cannot adopt a primary guild. The D'Tesh and Xivan come to mind, since I don't see how guilds could exist under their rule.

Click to expand...

Agreed, at least for the D'tesh, Frozen, Infernals. Will have to think on the rest.

Milaga said:

• I don't like the idea of another race for a holy city. It also seems to me that guilds should be civ-independent. The guilds are, after all, choosing the civs they want to work with, not the other way around! It makes sense that the civilization that best uses a guild to have the headquarters. One way I can see doing this is having each city have a point system for each guild. Building a guild unit might grant the city X points, purchasing a promotion might grant the city Y, for every Z years the guild is primary in that city might be another point, etc. The city with the most points for that guild (more or less) should have the headquarters.
  
  As an example, lets take the Bronzecrafter's Union again. It was founded by the Khazad. Most of their units are axedwarves who are getting bronze weapons automatically, so they have not purchased very many of these weapons from the union.
  
  The Ljosolfar also have the union in their capital. The idea of bronze using hunters is very appealing, so they are buying a lot of weapons from the Union. It would make sense for the headquarters of the union to be in the Ljosolfar capital. The union deals a lot more with the elves, since the dwarves make most of their bronze weapons with non-union labor.
  
  Other factors might affect the movement of the HQ. Trade routes are good for all guilds as it lets them expand their influence and/or distribute their wares. They may be less likely to move from a city with more trade routes to one with less, or even if there already exists a trade route between the current and potential HQ. Guild HQs will quickly move away from a civ that does not use it as a primary guild if there is another civ that does. The crime rate of the city might be a factor for or against the headquarters moving there. Dead guild units might also encourage an HQ to move elsewhere. Events could increase or decrease points in cities. Guilds can be made to be very fickle.

Click to expand...

I know I haven't gone into detail about the Headquarters, but yes, this is pretty much what I have in mind. First one to found gets it, but if it spreads elsewhere, and they support it more, it will move. Just like the old Ratcatcher's Guild.

Milaga said:

• Conquering a city should remove most guilds from a city. When war comes and the ownership of a city changes hands it's better for the guild leaders to negotiate their new role from a safe distance. I could see why guilds focusing on skulduggery, subterfuge or legerdemain might remain. Likewise with cults represented by guilds (which in Erebus I suppose are religions where the gods are dead or just don't give anything back.) Maybe each guild has a separate chance to be removed by conquering. This number might increase or decrease depending on Civic choices and leadership Traits.

Click to expand...

Agreed.

Milaga said:

• Guilds should only be spread either deliberately by the city owner or through events. This, plus the "conquer clause" above will mean that the only way to get some guilds in your civ is to build them yourself with a great person. They should be very hard to remove. Again, I like the ritual idea, so a city must spend hammers (and suffer some anarchy) in order to change it's own guilds. Some guilds focusing on trade, truth, or freedom might not even be able to build this ritual.

Click to expand...

I think a low spread rate could work here, but it would be VERY low; Could easily just use events.

Milaga said:

• It will be hard to resist the urge to have parallel religions and guilds. Still, I see the Council of Esus and the Ordo Machinarium possibly having both. One representing the spiritual aspect of the religion, the other the practical.

Click to expand...

Well, Machinarum is gone as of next patch. Unless I make it a cult, but I'm not sure about that; Bringing the RifE Mechanos more in line with those in Orbis. CoE is the only religion I see as having a Guild counterpart.

• Milaga said:

  Care needs to be taken to ensure picking a guild given a specific religion or civ isn't a no brainer. Master upgrades for mounted units are great for the Hippus, but if they go this route with their guild they might be missing out on the benefits of the Guild of the Nine.

  Click to expand...

I agree completely. There should be interesting choices here, not no-brainers.

Milaga said:

It already looks like you are leaning towards making this another category of civics, but looking over how I felt guilds should behave it seems to be best fit with another grouping of religions than civics.

Click to expand...

How do you mean, another category of civics? The only similarity there, really, is the way in which they become active/inactive, as there are multiple categories (Though it would simplify things to have fewer guilds, and only one Active at a time, ala Religions). Otherwise, I think they are far more like religions; Their effects are broader, the choices are more distinct.

Milaga said:

The example guilds I used above are merely thought experiments. They are pretty crude and aren't meant to expand upon the guilds themselves so much as what I see their role is and how they would work. Here's a quick stab at the new Stonefire Guild:


Stonefire Guild

• Requires: Construction, Smelting
• Spread by: Great Engineer (consumed), Stonefire Apprentice (consumed, 25), Stonefire Blacksmith (consumed)
• Minor benefits:
  • +10% production of Forge
  • +20% production of Lighthouse, Monument, Wall, Well if access to marble
  • -1 -5%
  • +1 each if access to copper or iron
  • Can train: 100 Stonefire Apprentice
  • Can build guild ritual: Stonefire Dominance
  • Removes rusted promotion from units in the city
• Primary benefits:
  • +20% production of Forge
  • +40% production of Lighthouse Monument, Wall, Well if access to marble
  • -10% production if the Guild of Hammers is present in the city
  • -10%
  • +5% each if access to copper or iron
  • +5% each if access to gold or marble
  • Can train: 40 Stonefire Apprentice
  • Can train: 80 Stonefire Blacksmith (melee 0/2, can use bronze and iron weapons, can cast remove rust 10)
  • Can train: 160 Stonefire Master (melee 0/3, can use bronze, iron and mithril weapons, can cast remove rust 10, repair 20, wall of stone 40)
  • Can build: 400 Master Smith
  • Can build: 600 Master Siegesmith
  • Can build: 600 Master Shipwright
  • Can build guild ritual: Stonefire Unchallenged
  • Removes rusted promotion from units in the city
  • Siege and Naval units heal an additional 5% per turn

Click to expand...

I like the basic ideas here... Will have a more indepth response later, when I'm done with this paper.

Valkrionn said:

Not sure if you misunderstood something here.... You won't have just one primary guild. You'll have several 'Active' guilds, and possibly some 'inactive' guilds... In this case, it is far more like Civics than Religion, in that you'd have multiple categories and be able to select one from the category.

Having minor effects (but higher costs) from an inactive guild could work. My main concern is that you should not be able to utilize two competing guilds in two different cities, as that encourages micromanagement and is just 'gamey' to me. If you support one guild out of a competing set, the others do not deal with you easily.

...

How do you mean, another category of civics?

Click to expand...

I did misunderstand. For some reason when I read about classes I thought you could not have two from the same class, but could have multiple guilds. I see now you mean that only one from a class can be active at a given time.

This certainly brings about a whole different dimension to things. My thinking about this case has been very uptight.

Yes, it might get very complicated if you have multiple active (and passive) guilds all giving effects. So there active guilds are guilds that the civilization is dealing with at the moment. The passive guilds really wouldn't have much of an impact on the city they are in. Again, there could always be exceptions, the effects would be small and usually include an unpleasant element. Cult of the Dragon might offer +1 but +1 if passive.

Valkrionn said:

I agree about Spiritual, and Organized preventing the anarchy could be interesting.

I'm not sure on the Ritual idea; It's a civ-wide mechanic, so requiring one city to complete the ritual is a bit odd. I could easily see requiring a 'Pledge' in the form of a high gold cost, though.

Click to expand...

Both anarchy and the method of switching guilds really could depend on the classes of guilds chosen. If there is a Economic class, paying gold seems appropriate to switch. The drawback might be that all trade route yields are halved for a few turns as the traders adjust to the new way things are done. An Engineering class might require a building built, or maybe nothing at all, and their anarchy might be a civ-wide reduction in commerce or hammers representing new guild ramping up to their new tasks. If there is a "Cult" class, it literally would be like throwing a switch and declaring an "official" cult. With the standard turn of anarchy and perhaps a chance for a bloodbath. Cities that have multiple cults might not handle this type of guild transition very well and see additional turns of anarchy.

You could even have different civ traits have different impacts on the different guild transition methods and anarchys, but it's probably not necessary. And I don't think the financial trait needs any other benefits.

Valkrionn said:

Agreed, at least for the D'tesh, Frozen, Infernals. Will have to think on the rest.

Click to expand...

This might be a very gray area. Some civs, like D'tesh and the Infernals, would not tolerate any guilds whatsoever, and it would even be impossible to spread them to their cities. Others might have some classes they couldn't have an active guild in. The Grigori, for instance, wouldn't be able to have a active Cult guild.

Valkrionn said:

I know I haven't gone into detail about the Headquarters, but yes, this is pretty much what I have in mind. First one to found gets it, but if it spreads elsewhere, and they support it more, it will move. Just like the old Ratcatcher's Guild.

Click to expand...

I think I've got some good ideas for the Ratcatcher's guild. But more on that later.

Valkrionn said:

Well, Machinarum is gone as of next patch. Unless I make it a cult, but I'm not sure about that; Bringing the RifE Mechanos more in line with those in Orbis. CoE is the only religion I see as having a Guild counterpart.

Click to expand...

The Council of Esus and the Cult of Esus. I like that. Maybe because I have always found the Council of Esus the most powerful religion in the game. It might be nice to split up some of their benefits, but I have a feeling you new benefits in store.

I also liked the Ordo Machinarium, but then again I used to be big into old-school Warhammer 40k, so anything that has a machine-spirit is okay in my book. I've had some other ideas for the Mechanos, but I'll take that to the Orbis board.

Hmm, it really seems like there needs to be a Cult class of Guilds. The White Hand could even be downgraded to a cult (which it it should be). It cripples those who adopt it, but this might allow it to be used offensively, spreading it to other towns, which cool their lands and make it easier for the cold-lovers to invade. Here's some thoughts about how this class could work:

• Cults cannot be activated if there is a state religion. If a state religion is adopted while a cult religion is active there will be an additional turn of anarchy followed by any repercussions of inactivating the cult.
• With a few exceptions, cults can only be removed from cities by other cults. High Priests of the Order should have a High Inquisition ability that will remove all cults from a city. Civs that cannot adopt active cults should have a unit available that can remove cults from cities. Cults should be very difficult to get rid of. Adopting a cult, starting an inquisition, then reverting to your previous religion should not be a practical option.
• Unlike other guilds or religions, cults cannot be spread deliberately if they are not active.
• Units produced in cities with a cult have a chance of having an invisible promotion for their cult. Active cults are much more highly weighted than passive cults. This promotion in most cases will have no other benefit other than allowing that unit to transmit their cult to others. Units may only have one cult promotion.
• Cult guilds can spread passively without events, but in a different manner than standard religions:
  • Cities that have trade routes with a city with a cult have a small chance of acquiring the cult guild. This reflects the passive trading of goods and culture that happens in friendly cities.
  • Any time a unit with a cult promotion spends a turn stationary it has a very small chance to give a random unit their cult promotion.
  • Any time a unit with a cult promotion causes war weariness for another civilization there is a very small chance that civilization might gain the cult in one of their cities. This represents the population adopting the civ out of fear.

Maybe tomorrow I'll come up with a few roughs for Cult of the Dragon, Cult of the White Hand, and Cult of Kylorin, as they seem like obvious choices lorewise. It will be hard not to make Kylorin a nobrainer for Amurites, but given the cost of their preferred tech tree and nice tech penalty is both balancing and makes sense lorewise.

Valkrionn said:

I like the basic ideas here... Will have a more indepth response later, when I'm done with this paper.

Click to expand...

Don't think too much on my Stonefires, work on your paper! That's just what I came up with after reading my own post. And I had some key points wrong anyway. I can do better, so I withdraw my suggestion.

Milaga said:

I did misunderstand. For some reason when I read about classes I thought you could not have two from the same class, but could have multiple guilds. I see now you mean that only one from a class can be active at a given time.

This certainly brings about a whole different dimension to things. My thinking about this case has been very uptight.

Yes, it might get very complicated if you have multiple active (and passive) guilds all giving effects. So there active guilds are guilds that the civilization is dealing with at the moment. The passive guilds really wouldn't have much of an impact on the city they are in. Again, there could always be exceptions, the effects would be small and usually include an unpleasant element. Cult of the Dragon might offer +1 but +1 if passive.

Click to expand...

Right. I'm thinking between 3-5 GuildClasses at most, all with at least 2 members and up to 4 or 5 (Engineering/Economy will have a couple each, most likely).

Milaga said:

Both anarchy and the method of switching guilds really could depend on the classes of guilds chosen. If there is a Economic class, paying gold seems appropriate to switch. The drawback might be that all trade route yields are halved for a few turns as the traders adjust to the new way things are done. An Engineering class might require a building built, or maybe nothing at all, and their anarchy might be a civ-wide reduction in commerce or hammers representing new guild ramping up to their new tasks. If there is a "Cult" class, it literally would be like throwing a switch and declaring an "official" cult. With the standard turn of anarchy and perhaps a chance for a bloodbath. Cities that have multiple cults might not handle this type of guild transition very well and see additional turns of anarchy.

You could even have different civ traits have different impacts on the different guild transition methods and anarchys, but it's probably not necessary. And I don't think the financial trait needs any other benefits.

Click to expand...

The problem with that is it adds a lot of code to the GuildClasses; As of now they'll be just a description and a type, like the CivicOptionTypes. I'd rather have just one standard cost, and keep it simple.

Milaga said:

This might be a very gray area. Some civs, like D'tesh and the Infernals, would not tolerate any guilds whatsoever, and it would even be impossible to spread them to their cities. Others might have some classes they couldn't have an active guild in. The Grigori, for instance, wouldn't be able to have a active Cult guild.

Click to expand...

Right, but a partial block like that will be able to be done via python (would just have to add a python call there).

Milaga said:

The Council of Esus and the Cult of Esus. I like that. Maybe because I have always found the Council of Esus the most powerful religion in the game. It might be nice to split up some of their benefits, but I have a feeling you new benefits in store.

I also liked the Ordo Machinarium, but then again I used to be big into old-school Warhammer 40k, so anything that has a machine-spirit is okay in my book. I've had some other ideas for the Mechanos, but I'll take that to the Orbis board.

Hmm, it really seems like there needs to be a Cult class of Guilds. The White Hand could even be downgraded to a cult (which it it should be). It cripples those who adopt it, but this might allow it to be used offensively, spreading it to other towns, which cool their lands and make it easier for the cold-lovers to invade. Here's some thoughts about how this class could work:

Click to expand...

Honestly, in this case the RELIGION would be the Cult, and the guild would be the organizational side of things. It'll be in the Crime class, as well as (most likely) a Corsair guild.

I'm not going to downgrade the Hand, either; With some tweaks to how Hell spreads, a return to the AoI will be a valid choice. Which was most of my intention in adding it, something I think it's pedia shows quite well.

I do agree about cults as a whole, though; Intolerant civs (Cualli, Scions, few others) would have Cults. Lesser religions, can spread them to conquered cities or even allies. In the case of the Scions, the Emperor's Cult would give a small amount of culture, and grant access to the Scion religious buildings/units if followed. If a foreign civ follows it, they get a diplo bonus with the scions (can add a tag like 'NativeCult', if someone follows it you get a boost) but have various bad effects as well... Units can 'defect' to the Scions, creepers/HL begin appearing, etc.

Milaga said:

• Cults cannot be activated if there is a state religion. If a state religion is adopted while a cult religion is active there will be an additional turn of anarchy followed by any repercussions of inactivating the cult.
• With a few exceptions, cults can only be removed from cities by other cults. High Priests of the Order should have a High Inquisition ability that will remove all cults from a city. Civs that cannot adopt active cults should have a unit available that can remove cults from cities. Cults should be very difficult to get rid of. Adopting a cult, starting an inquisition, then reverting to your previous religion should not be a practical option.
• Unlike other guilds or religions, cults cannot be spread deliberately if they are not active.
• Units produced in cities with a cult have a chance of having an invisible promotion for their cult. Active cults are much more highly weighted than passive cults. This promotion in most cases will have no other benefit other than allowing that unit to transmit their cult to others. Units may only have one cult promotion.
• Cult guilds can spread passively without events, but in a different manner than standard religions:
  • Cities that have trade routes with a city with a cult have a small chance of acquiring the cult guild. This reflects the passive trading of goods and culture that happens in friendly cities.
  • Any time a unit with a cult promotion spends a turn stationary it has a very small chance to give a random unit their cult promotion.
  • Any time a unit with a cult promotion causes war weariness for another civilization there is a very small chance that civilization might gain the cult in one of their cities. This represents the population adopting the civ out of fear.

Maybe tomorrow I'll come up with a few roughs for Cult of the Dragon, Cult of the White Hand, and Cult of Kylorin, as they seem like obvious choices lorewise. It will be hard not to make Kylorin a nobrainer for Amurites, but given the cost of their preferred tech tree and nice tech penalty is both balancing and makes sense lorewise.

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• Agreed about the state religion.
• I'm planning a guild-inquisition, but it could be set to ignore Cults easily.
• Agreed. Don't want someone spreading CotD to cripple enemies without experiencing it's effects themselves.
• Possible, will need it in some cases at least (like the Cult of the Emperor)
• As of now, they'd only spread actively or via event. To do otherwise would either add code to the Classes (which I can do, if I make a full file; If I make a basicinfos file, I can not add code) or would require changing the base spread code and thereby preventing us from using it for other guilds.
• Not sure about this one either.

Some of the cults I plan (as of now):
Cult of the Dragon
Cult of the Emperor
Cult of Machines
Cult of Agruonn

Valkrionn said:

Right. I'm thinking between 3-5 GuildClasses at most, all with at least 2 members and up to 4 or 5 (Engineering/Economy will have a couple each, most likely).

Click to expand...

I had a few crazy thoughts this morning over coffee.

The first was that classes could correlate to classes of civics. Government, hmm, maybe that would be Crime. Labor would be Engineering, Economy is Financial, Cultural Values made me think that a Social class of guilds might be the fifth class, and instead of council membership there would be the cults.

The second crazy thought that immediately followed was if the Overcouncil and Undercouncil could somehow manifest as guilds.

Just early morning synapses firing wildly. So then I thought a bit about what a social class could have.

• The Masquerade, which brings culture and gold to a city the more resources available that actors can use as props. Faster production of theaters.
• The Caliguli, providing entertainment to the masses regardless of the costs. Faster production of Hippodrome. Perhaps the only guild that allows you to build public baths. Additional happiness and unhealthiness from some buildings. Healing rate decreased in cities with the Caliguli, as soldiers tend to spend longer on R&R nursing their wounds.
• The Archivists, dedicated to preserving and rediscovering lost culture. Overall science penalty but science bonuses to Libraries, Inns and Taverns can quickly turn this into a positive. Faster production of monuments. Allows units that can explore enemy territory and are invisible if the owner of the land has also adopted the Archivists.

Perhaps the happiness bonus for the culture slider could be halved unless one of the Social guilds is activated since they are better at channeling the focus on culture.

Valkrionn said:

The problem with that is it adds a lot of code to the GuildClasses; As of now they'll be just a description and a type, like the CivicOptionTypes. I'd rather have just one standard cost, and keep it simple.

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I don't know anything about how things could be or are being implemented. I'm just thinking about how the game could behave. And thinking about it again, it sounds overly complicated for the user. All civics are changed the same way, all religions likewise. It should be no different for guilds. I just never like the arbitrary 1 turn anarchy, no changes for 10 turn, limitation on changing civics. I figured the penalties could be a little more creative and allow civs, if their traits were right and their economy was focused that way, to switch from wartime to peacetime and back again very rapidly.

Perhaps only one guild activation can be made per turn, anarchy ensuing. Organized would still have the one guild per turn limit, but no anarchy. Spiritual has no effect.

Valkrionn said:

Honestly, in this case the RELIGION would be the Cult, and the guild would be the organizational side of things. It'll be in the Crime class, as well as (most likely) a Corsair guild.

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I'm a bit confused, but I think we're thinking the same thing. The Cult of Esus is the Religion and the Council is a Crime class guild.

Valkrionn said:

I'm not going to downgrade the Hand, either; With some tweaks to how Hell spreads, a return to the AoI will be a valid choice. Which was most of my intention in adding it, something I think it's pedia shows quite well.

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I still have a hard time believing that some civilizations who were almost wiped out in the Age of Ice would welcome returning to those times, no matter how un-fun hell is. The Bannor are probably the most likely to, since they've already been to hell and never had to endure a New England winter, let alone a whole AGE of New England winters.

In the games I've had, following the White hand was a sure way to end a civilization. Two games ago the Illians got the White Hand ridiculously early, and it spread to their neighbors the Bannor. When I finally met Sabathiel on turn 200 he was ruling one city with a population of one. Maybe that's fixed in the upcoming version.

I suppose giving civs the freedom to make choices that are out of flavor is in the FfH spirit. Maybe I'll warm up to the idea, if you pardon the pun.

Valkrionn said:

I do agree about cults as a whole, though; Intolerant civs (Cualli, Scions, few others) would have Cults. Lesser religions, can spread them to conquered cities or even allies. In the case of the Scions, the Emperor's Cult would give a small amount of culture, and grant access to the Scion religious buildings/units if followed. If a foreign civ follows it, they get a diplo bonus with the scions (can add a tag like 'NativeCult', if someone follows it you get a boost) but have various bad effects as well... Units can 'defect' to the Scions, creepers/HL begin appearing, etc.

Click to expand...

I like this a lot. This really does fix the problem with all those agnostic civs who weren't really agnostic, just would never follow the standard religions. This really just leaves the Grigori as true agnostics, the rest are just cult worshippers.

Valkrionn said:

Some of the cults I plan (as of now):
Cult of the Dragon
Cult of the Emperor
Cult of Machines
Cult of Agruonn

Click to expand...

I can see all these cults behaving the same way as you described for the Cult of the Emperor. Does it make sense that some civs start with the appropriate cult in their first city? They would have the HQ, which could have benefits that blank out the penalties for having a cult in the city. In fact, that might be the only way to found these cults, outside of events, so games without the Scions might not have a Cult of the Emperor.

Cult of the Dragon is kind of the odd one here, since both Kuriotates and Sheiam lay claim to it. I don't really know enough about it to suggest how to deal with this one.

The Mazatl are also left out. I don't really see the worship of their gods as being very relevant to the civ or worthy of inclusion as a cult. Perhaps they might also lay claim to the Cult of the Dragon.

Milaga said:

I had a few crazy thoughts this morning over coffee.

The first was that classes could correlate to classes of civics. Government, hmm, maybe that would be Crime. Labor would be Engineering, Economy is Financial, Cultural Values made me think that a Social class of guilds might be the fifth class, and instead of council membership there would be the cults.

Click to expand...

That's too much correlation, IMO. The basic jobs may be similar, but it shouldn't be tied together like that. Guilds will be far more about jobs than social values... Engineering, Enchanting, Construction (likely to be merged with Engineering), Banking, Food Production, Crime. Not saying those will be the classes, just that those are the type of things that will be classes.

Milaga said:

The second crazy thought that immediately followed was if the Overcouncil and Undercouncil could somehow manifest as guilds.

Click to expand...

I could see doing that, but it's really no different than a civic and is ultimately simpler to stick to the current implementation.

Milaga said:

Just early morning synapses firing wildly. So then I thought a bit about what a social class could have.

• The Masquerade, which brings culture and gold to a city the more resources available that actors can use as props. Faster production of theaters.
• The Caliguli, providing entertainment to the masses regardless of the costs. Faster production of Hippodrome. Perhaps the only guild that allows you to build public baths. Additional happiness and unhealthiness from some buildings. Healing rate decreased in cities with the Caliguli, as soldiers tend to spend longer on R&R nursing their wounds.
• The Archivists, dedicated to preserving and rediscovering lost culture. Overall science penalty but science bonuses to Libraries, Inns and Taverns can quickly turn this into a positive. Faster production of monuments. Allows units that can explore enemy territory and are invisible if the owner of the land has also adopted the Archivists.

Perhaps the happiness bonus for the culture slider could be halved unless one of the Social guilds is activated since they are better at channeling the focus on culture.

Click to expand...

I do like these basic ideas, though. Archivists could make a good arcane guild, actually, if you give them a unit on that path (Say, an Archivist who is able to learn spells from defeated units.)

Milaga said:

I don't know anything about how things could be or are being implemented. I'm just thinking about how the game could behave. And thinking about it again, it sounds overly complicated for the user. All civics are changed the same way, all religions likewise. It should be no different for guilds. I just never like the arbitrary 1 turn anarchy, no changes for 10 turn, limitation on changing civics. I figured the penalties could be a little more creative and allow civs, if their traits were right and their economy was focused that way, to switch from wartime to peacetime and back again very rapidly.

Perhaps only one guild activation can be made per turn, anarchy ensuing. Organized would still have the one guild per turn limit, but no anarchy. Spiritual has no effect.

Click to expand...

I agree, a different cost could be good here. Should be kept simple, though; Honestly, I'm in favor of a gold cost. The more 'developed' the old guild is vs the new determines the cost... Could be next to nothing, could be insanely expensive. To go with it, it should be difficult (if not impossible) to spread a guild without it being Active.

Milaga said:

I'm a bit confused, but I think we're thinking the same thing. The Cult of Esus is the Religion and the Council is a Crime class guild.

Click to expand...

Yeah.

Milaga said:

I still have a hard time believing that some civilizations who were almost wiped out in the Age of Ice would welcome returning to those times, no matter how un-fun hell is. The Bannor are probably the most likely to, since they've already been to hell and never had to endure a New England winter, let alone a whole AGE of New England winters.

In the games I've had, following the White hand was a sure way to end a civilization. Two games ago the Illians got the White Hand ridiculously early, and it spread to their neighbors the Bannor. When I finally met Sabathiel on turn 200 he was ruling one city with a population of one. Maybe that's fixed in the upcoming version.

I suppose giving civs the freedom to make choices that are out of flavor is in the FfH spirit. Maybe I'll warm up to the idea, if you pardon the pun.

Click to expand...

I think the main issues atm are that Glacial terrain takes too long to develop, and is too strong for the Illians. 30 turns of snow terrain hurts badly.

Milaga said:

I like this a lot. This really does fix the problem with all those agnostic civs who weren't really agnostic, just would never follow the standard religions. This really just leaves the Grigori as true agnostics, the rest are just cult worshippers.

Click to expand...

I've had the idea for Cult guilds since I was working on Malakim+. Looong time now.

Milaga said:

I can see all these cults behaving the same way as you described for the Cult of the Emperor. Does it make sense that some civs start with the appropriate cult in their first city? They would have the HQ, which could have benefits that blank out the penalties for having a cult in the city. In fact, that might be the only way to found these cults, outside of events, so games without the Scions might not have a Cult of the Emperor.

Cult of the Dragon is kind of the odd one here, since both Kuriotates and Sheiam lay claim to it. I don't really know enough about it to suggest how to deal with this one.

The Mazatl are also left out. I don't really see the worship of their gods as being very relevant to the civ or worthy of inclusion as a cult. Perhaps they might also lay claim to the Cult of the Dragon.

Click to expand...

Any cult which is specific to a civ should generally be founded automatically in the capital, but NOT spread for free (start with it, like the Balseraphs and Masquerade, but it doesn't spread to all new cities, unlike the Balseraphs and Masquerade). With CotD, it should probably be founded via event, by either Kuriotates, Sheaim, or Mazatl (who will certainly have a flavor for it).

Speaking of the Mazatl; They worship Kilmorph and Oghma, under different names. I'm honestly planning to just make them able to adopt religions, but lose access to their unique temples if they do. They'll also lose access to their wyverns, and Coatlann. Yes, they get new wyverns (thinking a limit of 6, buildable after the worldspell is completed) using the current Coatlann art, and Coatlann himself will get this:



I think it fits the feel perfectly, given the name and general mesoamerican feel. Was converted from the drakes (imported from Kohan2 by Deliverator, and in the next version) by Psychic_Llamas.

Here's a summary of my basic ideas, in a hopefully easy to read format... Copied from a post in the team forum.

• Guilds provide a new layer of uniqueness
  • New UU's [actual UU's, not new units but replacements (civ UU/UB's have priority)] and UB's, Equipment promotions, etc. I think 4-5 units and 2-3 buildings (one of which provides Equipment) is a good amount to work with. That does not include the basic 'corporation' unit, unless it serves a purpose beyond spreading the guild.
  • Contrary to my earliest thoughts, I don't think it should be "One guild gives units/buildings, other gives equipment". Instead, you should have some of each, but have different functions.For Engineering guilds, you could have the following:
    1. Weapon Guild - Specialized in attack units, buildings granting increased military production, weapon promotions.
    2. Defense Guild - Specialized in better archers, walls, armors.
  • Obviously, just basic ideas but you get the point.
  • The Guild is not part of the civ (with one exception, will get to it below), and is a separate entity from your government. To show this, we do a few things:
    • Headquarters can move.
      • An inactive guild is likely to move it's headquarters to a civ which is following it.
      • An active, but underutilized guild is likely to move it's headquarters to a civ using it's units/buildings/promotions more.
      • A guild is less likely to move from a large city with many traderoutes, even if underutilized.
    • Buildings will generally be better than what they replace, but have a new cost (gold cost, generally) representing the Guild taking it's cut.
    • Units cost higher maintenance. Again, Guild taking it's cut.
    • Equipment costs gold to purchase.
• GuildClasses
  • Similar to civics; Multiple guilds in a category, only one may be active and providing benefits. All guilds within a category are considered to be 'competing', which is expressed via event chains.
  • "Pledging support" for a guild does not cause anarchy, and does not have a delay. Instead, there is a gold cost, based on several factors.
    • How ingrained the old guild is (Raises cost)
    • How widespread the new guild is (lowers cost)
    • Organized trait (lowers cost)
  • 'Inactive' (unsupported, either term works) guilds either provide minor benefits and increased costs (+2 , but +1 , for example), or nothing. I'd prefer the first, second works too.
  • I think this is a better method for limiting guilds than JUST competition, and makes our lives easier (Balancing different guilds to work together without being OP is hard to do, when you want them to have substantial effects)
• Cults
  • Using GuildClasses, we can have Cults, representing the religions of certain agnostic civs. To cite an example from the public thread:
    • In the case of the Scions, the Emperor's Cult would give a small amount of culture, and grant access to the Scion religious buildings/units if followed. If a foreign civ follows it, they get a diplo bonus with the scions (can add a tag like 'NativeCult', if someone follows it you get a boost) but have various bad effects as well... Units can 'defect' to the Scions, creepers/HL begin appearing, etc.
  • Following a Religion makes you unable to follow a Cult.
  • Basically, we can do alot here to represent the Intolerant civ religions, without making a full religion (which is far more work, harder to balance, and pointless)
  • Civ-specific cults would be founded automatically in the capital, but not spread for free; Multi-civ cults (Cult of the Dragon) would be founded via event.

Valkrionn said:

I agree, a different cost could be good here. Should be kept simple, though; Honestly, I'm in favor of a gold cost. The more 'developed' the old guild is vs the new determines the cost... Could be next to nothing, could be insanely expensive.

Click to expand...

The problem with using gold, or building a ritual with hammers, is that it makes civs that are richer (or good producers) more flexible and quicker to adjust and improve their guilds. It doesn't make sense that civ with a thriving economy should be able to adopt an advanced Cult sooner than a poorer civ.

Valkrionn said:

To go with it, it should be difficult (if not impossible) to spread a guild without it being Active.

Click to expand...

Yeah, it's simple and sensible that it should not be possible to deliberately spread inactive guilds.

Valkrionn said:

Any cult which is specific to a civ should generally be founded automatically in the capital, but NOT spread for free (start with it, like the Balseraphs and Masquerade, but it doesn't spread to all new cities, unlike the Balseraphs and Masquerade). With CotD, it should probably be founded via event, by either Kuriotates, Sheaim, or Mazatl (who will certainly have a flavor for it).

Click to expand...

Makes sense, but requiring CotD to be founded by an event was one thing I never liked. The first civ to build a dragon could found it. If it's not founded by one of the three with flavor for it the HQ would move to whoever gets it first. This means the Kuriotates, Sheaim and Mazatl might want station a lot of units in barbarian lands to pay homage to the mighty Acheron, hopefully out of breath range.

Valkrionn said:

Speaking of the Mazatl; They worship Kilmorph and Oghma, under different names.

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I had completely forgotten that! But I don't understand, are they worshipping literally the same gods or do they have different "gods" that just represent the same aspects? Have Kilmorph and Oghma ever interacted with them? Given blessings to priests? Have they just given them different names or did they forget their true ones during the Age of Ice?

Valkrionn said:

Yes, they get new wyverns (thinking a limit of 6, buildable after the worldspell is completed) using the current Coatlann art, and Coatlann himself will get this:

Click to expand...

Whoah! That's purty!

Valkrionn said:

I think it fits the feel perfectly, given the name and general mesoamerican feel. Was converted from the drakes (imported from Kohan2 by Deliverator, and in the next version) by Psychic_Llamas.

Click to expand...

Nice. Both lizardman races are due for a touch up. They always seemed to be the most neglected civs in FF. I think even the Kahdi saw more attention. I always had trouble playing them because I'd get far into the game and then all the sudden I'd be like "Why is my Ranger a Native American with a Puma?" and it would literally ruin the game for me. I don't even know if they have all their units done, and many of the ones they have aren't really up to the same standard as the other civs.

EDIT: Oops, you posted while I was eating brekky. I'm still unsure about using money for changing guilds, but I'm starting to come around to the idea. Other than that I approve of everything you've mentioned, not that you need my approval.

Milaga said:

The problem with using gold, or building a ritual with hammers, is that it makes civs that are richer (or good producers) more flexible and quicker to adjust and improve their guilds. It doesn't make sense that civ with a thriving economy should be able to adopt an advanced Cult sooner than a poorer civ.

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The thing is, my idea is relative; Prices will be cheap early on, when you can't afford it (guilds aren't entrenched yet), but the more you build the guild up, the harder your economy will be hit when you switch. Could be a simple gold cost, could add some kind of other effect, but I think whatever the cost is it should represent the effect that removing the guild had on your economy.

Milaga said:

Yeah, it's simple and sensible that it should not be possible to deliberately spread inactive guilds.

Click to expand...

Yeah, think I'll go with that.

Milaga said:

Makes sense, but requiring CotD to be founded by an event was one thing I never liked. The first civ to build a dragon could found it. If it's not founded by one of the three with flavor for it the HQ would move to whoever gets it first. This means the Kuriotates, Sheaim and Mazatl might want station a lot of units in barbarian lands to pay homage to the mighty Acheron, hopefully out of breath range.

Click to expand...

That is honestly the type of event I meant. It wouldn't be founded by the Barbs, but if someone captures Acheron, and the guild isn't active, it's founded in his city. Or if one of the other civs builds their dragon, it's founded in that city. Not a random event, but a triggered one.

Milaga said:

I had completely forgotten that! But I don't understand, are they worshipping literally the same gods or do they have different "gods" that just represent the same aspects? Have Kilmorph and Oghma ever interacted with them? Given blessings to priests? Have they just given them different names or did they forget their true ones during the Age of Ice?

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As far as I am aware, Kalshekk and Omorr are simply different names for Kilmorph and Oghma. And the priests of both gods DO have divine abilities, so I think they give their blessings.

Milaga said:

Whoah! That's purty!

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I've asked him if he can extend the feathers down the side, kind of merge the two themes rather than suddenly move from feathers to scales, but I'll use it as is if he doesn't.

Milaga said:

Nice. Both lizardman races are due for a touch up. They always seemed to be the most neglected civs in FF. I think even the Kahdi saw more attention. I always had trouble playing them because I'd get far into the game and then all the sudden I'd be like "Why is my Ranger a Native American with a Puma?" and it would literally ruin the game for me. I don't even know if they have all their units done, and many of the ones they have aren't really up to the same standard as the other civs.

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I have plans for the Cualli, but it will likely wait for the version after this one; Big mechanic.

Milaga's numbers are way off. With a copper and the Mines of Gal'dur you'd be giving your whole empire 20% Tax 20% hammers. No freaking way


If I were to suggest anything regarding modded guilds based on the many many many rife games I've played in multiplayer lately they would be..

No production, no Tax income from guilds, EVER. this means Stonefire. The other guilds contribute income in Coin and that is at least filtered through the research/culture sliders. In fact, every source of static Coin other than specialists being converted to Coin instead ot Tax would be extremely healthy for the game. It would make building Sea-to-Sea mega empires a little harder than just building Markets/Gambling Houses.


On the turn side, increase the Taxes to Production conversion ratio for rushing production with cash so those civics can compete better with Scholarship. Scholarship is ridiculously good because of the unlimited Sages who are ALL made into SUPER SAGES by the +1 beaker to all specialists that comes with that civic. Combine that with the great library or/and Sidar bonuses and why would you run anything else. You wont, everything else gives hundreds of beakers less.

Not an exagerration, I had a capitol producing over a thousand beakers with this. Insane. Should never underrate how effective +1 beaker or +1 tax to all specialists is, it's the same thing that destroys all balance in Rise of Mankind.

Cuteunit said:

Milaga's numbers are way off. With a copper and the Mines of Gal'dur you'd be giving your whole empire 20% Tax 20% hammers. No freaking way


If I were to suggest anything regarding modded guilds based on the many many many rife games I've played in multiplayer lately they would be..

No production, no Tax income from guilds, EVER. this means Stonefire. The other guilds contribute income in Coin and that is at least filtered through the research/culture sliders. In fact, every source of static Coin other than specialists being converted to Coin instead ot Tax would be extremely healthy for the game. It would make building Sea-to-Sea mega empires a little harder than just building Markets/Gambling Houses.


On the turn side, increase the Taxes to Production conversion ratio for rushing production with cash so those civics can compete better with Scholarship. Scholarship is ridiculously good because of the unlimited Sages who are ALL made into SUPER SAGES by the +1 beaker to all specialists that comes with that civic. Combine that with the great library or/and Sidar bonuses and why would you run anything else. You wont, everything else gives hundreds of beakers less.

Not an exaggeration, I had a capitol producing over a thousand beakers with this. Insane. Should never underrate how effective +1 beaker or +1 tax to all specialists is, it's the same thing that destroys all balance in Rise of Mankind.

Click to expand...

I'd like to clarify something here: These buildings are REPLACEMENTS. Not additions.

Say the forge is 15% (can't remember what it actually is off the top of my head)... Could have a guild offer a unique forge with 20% . Very nice, but you cannot build both. No getting 35%

I have no intention of granting any bonuses for free. But extra bonuses on buildings can and will happen, if we use the system. And it's either we do, or we remove guilds; Debating just that in the team forum.

Cuteunit said:

Milaga's numbers are way off. With a copper and the Mines of Gal'dur you'd be giving your whole empire 20% Tax 20% hammers. No freaking way

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Originally it was more clear, but I had too many images in the post so I needed to combine a few of the descriptions. What I meant was 5% bonus IF the guild has access to copper and a 5% bonus if the guild has access to iron. It doesn't matter how much iron, so long as they have it. The most the bonus could be would be 10%.

I don't even know why I'm defending it. I don't like it either.

Cuteunit said:

No production, no Tax income from guilds, EVER. this means Stonefire. The other guilds contribute income in Coin and that is at least filtered through the research/culture sliders. In fact, every source of static Coin other than specialists being converted to Coin instead ot Tax would be extremely healthy for the game. It would make building Sea-to-Sea mega empires a little harder than just building Markets/Gambling Houses.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure I understand. You would rather have commerce benefits than gold benefits because gold benefits make things too easy? Commerce is much more powerful because each unit of commerce can be used for culture, research or gold. A unit of gold can only be used for that, it's not going to help you rush a tech or culture bomb a neighbor.

Cuteunit said:

On the turn side, increase the Taxes to Production conversion ratio for rushing production with cash so those civics can compete better with Scholarship. Scholarship is ridiculously good because of the unlimited Sages who are ALL made into SUPER SAGES by the +1 beaker to all specialists that comes with that civic. Combine that with the great library or/and Sidar bonuses and why would you run anything else. You wont, everything else gives hundreds of beakers less.

Click to expand...

And if you happen to have the hall of kings those super sages also produce 2 culture each. Not everyone can play the Sidar, nor can everyone have the Great Library.