Espionage and wonders in MP

Ok so while we're trying to get the intra-team pitboss up we're a bit light on discussion and i'm bored so I figure I might as well catalyse some.

I've been thinking alot about different ways to use espionage and whether different wonders in MP will be more effective. Here's some thoughts and feel free to comment.

Just on espionage, I think that in MP we could put some thought into more interesting ways to put it to use. Rather than just city revolts and a potential tech theft. I was thinking about employing a bit of a Sitting Bull style "annoy the hell out of the opposition with espionage strategy". Now i'm not talking about poisoning all of their border cities wells. I'm talking about targeted destruction in their more important cities.

Heres my ideas:
1) Destroy buildings/ building process in their hammer poor cities.
Basically, the main function of this is to do things like find the teams GP farm (not hard since thats where all the GPs will be coming from) and destroy the library. Often these cities will be hammer poor and it'll take them a while to get their GPP back up, may well be worth the investment.

2) Poison wells etc. in cities which border two other civs to attempt to hurt relations between two teams. I think a team won't mind another team doing stuff like tech stealing as that's a legitimate strategy. But poisoning a well and then "denying" it may annoy them.

3) Target the capital and make it as unproductive as possible. If they have a bureau cap which is holding up the economy, this may be worth the investment.


As for wonders, there's been a lot of talk of the oracle-mids gambit which i'm not 100% sold on mostly due to the fact that a) its a gambit and b) it places a giant target on our heads.

But i've been thinking, what about the other wonders that might not be as strong in SP. For instance i've been thinking about the Statue of Zeus and how owning it could be a major war deterrent as well as diplomatical bargaining chip. For instance, if we owned SoZ and were in a war and the other side wanted to get out of it, the crippling WW they may be experiencing might cause us to get a nice price for peace.

But also what about other wonders? What part will the AP play? What about MOM? What about the divine right wonders? I'm looking for some discussion on those as well as any other wonders you may think of...

One problem with all the espionage stuff you're suggesting:

Other teams will know, for certain, it's us, simply by counting espionage points against them. If we've spent (say) 100 espionage on a mission, the other team will know it, and will know it's us.

my 2cents on some nice to have wonders and problems with some wonders (not in special order):

1. Pyramids - obvious - but makes you a prime target for a xv1 war, so you must secure your diplo before building it
2. GreatLighthouse - obvious on maps with enough coast - will bring diplo penalties and makes you a target, needs good diplo
3. oracle - obvious - but hard to get (oracle - pyra shot is nice here)
4. AP - grea wonder in combo with a holy city - helps to get the other civs spreading your religion and bringing in cash (and hammers)
5. great wall - if you can get a GreatSpy for first GP (and are not planning on the oracle - pyra shot) its a strong wonder. the GreatSpy is an invisible and indestrucitve scout and talking about espionage in MP - the most dangerous weapon are beeing spiritual and switching civics of your non spiritual enemy
6. swedisch tempel (the reli-switch-wonder) - beeing spiritual its a must build if you can lay hands on gold. getting pacifism + theo for free and early, is brilliant
7. zeus, panth, toa, chickenpizza - waste of hammers in most situations (assuming we are playing as ghandy and beeing spiritual and phil)

Stonehenge might be good if we whant to this: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=358604


I also like Hanging Gardens.

Ok so while we're trying to get the intra-team pitboss up we're a bit light on discussion and i'm bored so I figure I might as well catalyse some.

I've been thinking alot about different ways to use espionage and whether different wonders in MP will be more effective. Here's some thoughts and feel free to comment.

Just on espionage, I think that in MP we could put some thought into more interesting ways to put it to use. Rather than just city revolts and a potential tech theft. I was thinking about employing a bit of a Sitting Bull style "annoy the hell out of the opposition with espionage strategy". Now i'm not talking about poisoning all of their border cities wells. I'm talking about targeted destruction in their more important cities.

Heres my ideas:
1) Destroy buildings/ building process in their hammer poor cities.
Basically, the main function of this is to do things like find the teams GP farm (not hard since thats where all the GPs will be coming from) and destroy the library. Often these cities will be hammer poor and it'll take them a while to get their GPP back up, may well be worth the investment.

2) Poison wells etc. in cities which border two other civs to attempt to hurt relations between two teams. I think a team won't mind another team doing stuff like tech stealing as that's a legitimate strategy. But poisoning a well and then "denying" it may annoy them.

3) Target the capital and make it as unproductive as possible. If they have a bureau cap which is holding up the economy, this may be worth the investment.

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That's a possibility, but as v8 said this will cause diplomatic problems.

Typically in multiplayer, people "respect" their opponents and put enough EP on them just to see their demographics. Of course, as the game progresses and alliances solidify, then you definitely want to put all your EP on someone (and make sure your allies put their EP on different people). My only concern with poisoning wells, etc. is that it will use up points that are hard to earn.

Also, if a team is generating great people, most likely they'll either be in caste system (where getting rid of the library doesn't do much) or slavery (easily whip the libary back).

As for wonders, there's been a lot of talk of the oracle-mids gambit which i'm not 100% sold on mostly due to the fact that a) its a gambit and b) it places a giant target on our heads.

But i've been thinking, what about the other wonders that might not be as strong in SP. For instance i've been thinking about the Statue of Zeus and how owning it could be a major war deterrent as well as diplomatical bargaining chip. For instance, if we owned SoZ and were in a war and the other side wanted to get out of it, the crippling WW they may be experiencing might cause us to get a nice price for peace.

But also what about other wonders? What part will the AP play? What about MOM? What about the divine right wonders? I'm looking for some discussion on those as well as any other wonders you may think of...

Click to expand...

I wouldn't target the Divine Right wonders unless we were really desperate. The Mausoleum of Maussolos is much more desirable. If we beelined to Calendar (probably not a good idea since Currency, Code of Laws, and Civil Service are usually more important) then we could probably get it if we had marble. We'll need an allies' help to get Calendar quickly.

SoZ is interesting ... I imagine that WW might not hurt as much in a single player game since the AI likes to build lots of obsolete units, but it could work.

SoZ I would think is terrible in Human Player. Especially on monarch it would be totally useless. I see it's uses in Always War Deity maps, where you are still fighting in 1800 AD.

But this is something much different. I'm also not sure if Snaaty meant Parthenon when he said panth. I would think Parthenon is quite worth it if we could build (or capture) it.

Anyhow, if the Mids thing works, it is most likely we can get a very large tech-lead. This is one major reason why I think no-tech-brokering would help snowball us to the top throughout the whole game. We get all first trades with everyone else, and they can't even trade our supplies to anyone else.

I think you're overestimating the power of the 'mids. Particularly in multiplayer, where we have opponents who will competently manage their cities and optimize their empire.

And with tech trading on, the game is going to be more about diplomacy anyway than pure teching power.

Wonders in MP games are too much of a risk. Those hammers ought to be spent on "core" improvements and military. If you really want wonders, wait until forges and run an an engineer or three.

However, the Great Wall can be an early game changer, especially if the owner is imperialistic. Imp + GW = tons and tons of GGs while fighting defensively. If peaceful expansion is preferred to war, no barbs in your territory means more hammers towards settlers/workers/core city improvements and less to military (which can backfire bigtime). Lastly, the guaranteed great spy is great as an invisible, indestructible scout. And, if we want, we can target a rival civ, expend the Great Spy, and send in tons of spies/military.

The GW is also cheap and can usually be chopped up rather fast. This is important because we don't want to have to switch production to military 'cause we got caught with our pants down (when we could have been making military for starters!)

Last point, it's best to get maybe 2, usually one wonder yourself and attempt to conquer the rest. Exception, as mentioned above, are engineered wonders, which rock hardcore.

Imp + GW = tons and tons of GGs while fighting defensively.

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I fail to ever see this happening. Our opponents would have to be ******ed to do us such favours. Often it comes down to one big stack of catapults, facing another stack of catapults, and no one can afford to make the first move because they will get crushed first.

That is, unless someone exploits the double-move issue.

If we have stone early in BFC as Ghandi I think that GW is pretty much a given because of how quick we will be able to complete it and continue on another path from there.

But what good does the GW do? No barbs? It's Monarch, they're hardly going to be coming in droves unless it's an enormous map.

v8_mark said:

But what good does the GW do? No barbs? It's Monarch, they're hardly going to be coming in droves unless it's an enormous map.

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you get a greatspy superearly (ghandy is phil, so its 4 points a turn... ...you get the gspy 25 turns after you build the wall)

a greatspy is an immortal scout that can even pop huts underneath barbs, map out the entire continent without being seen an so on... ...after you have done that, you simply infiltrate your "best friend" and dont have to worry about research any more, cause 2.000spypoints are like 10.000beakers... ...and you have full insight in all cities (cause you have mapped them out before, research, builds, everything)

good espionage (=lots of spypoints) in the hands of a human oponent is a REALLY dangerous weapon, if used right (thats most likely why some want it partly banned here)

^Yes, that is a very solid use of the Great Spy. The only problem is, though, that the other team will definitely know you spy-bombed them. And typically when you spy-bomb someone, they instantly become enemy. That's why you need to secure an ally beforehand.