Current (sort of) Canal System.

Ok, so currently Civ has no canals. However by placing a city strategically on an isthmus you can sail boats through it, acting like a canal. The main problem is if it is a 2 tile wide isthmus or if there is not enough space to put down your city.

Also I beleive if you are allies with a city state on an isthmus you can sail through it.
So here are my questions.

1. Can you do the above? (As in use a city state ally as a canal)
2. Could you do it if they are not your ally?
3. Could you establish a trade route that goes through the city state canal, but not a trade route with the city state itself, if you are an ally of the city state?
4. Could you do Question 3 without being an ally?

I'm making a TSL Earth map, and am currently pondering whether to put down Panama city. As for the Suez canal, there are 2 locations for a canal like city, both of which will be attractive to the AI and will fit within city placement constraints.

I've payed close attention to city placement, If the maya are in the game, they can put down a city on the isthmus (they wont have much else choice), but it was also be more attractive to the AI. Even if the Maya aren't in the game, the Aztecs would still find it an attractive location.

- Thanks.

I think you can do all of the above.

1. No
2. No
3. Not sure, never tested
4. Ditto

I left Panama as open water because of this issue on my TSL world map (the one in my sig). You can blame Firaxis for this oversight... As in most cases.

Greizer85 said:

1. No
2. No
3. Not sure, never tested
4. Ditto

I left Panama as open water because of this issue on my TSL world map (the one in my sig). You can blame Firaxis for this oversight... As in most cases.

Click to expand...

I was sure that you could. I've at least been able to go through a city with Open Borders, and I think that you can do the same with city-states, as long as you go right through them in one turn (i.e. your unit isn't in the city).

I'm 95% sure it's impossible... But it's easy to check in any case. Just make an isthmus with the Ingame Editor mod and try to sail through the CS.

If a city is your ally, or you have open borders with them, then you can pass through their canal cities. Furthermore, yes, trade routes can pass through canal cities. My first game of BNW was with Portugal on the default Earth map, and I started right between the Tigris–Euphrates, and my second city was the Suez canal, I've had my ally's navy pass through the city, and their trade routes, and my trade routes.

1. Yes, it is actually possible; however, you can't end the ship's turn in the city-state itself. I'm also pretty sure embarked Civilian Units won't be able to go through the CS if there's a Worker in the city.
2. Yes, same as above. Also, the CS will (of course) get mad if you end the ship's turn in its territory.
3. Yes; trade routes can go through CSes or other Civ's cities no matter what your relations are with that CS or Civ. However, if you declare war on the CS or on an allied Civ the trade route will end up getting pillaged.
4. Yes.

So, I'd advise placing Panama City in such a location that it can serve as the Panama Canal.

You don't even need friends or open borders with the city to send trade routes through it - I've had a unfriendly Russia settle a city on a tile that was bordered by two seas, and all my trade routes went straight through it. You do need open borders to pass through with military units if it's another civ, though, obviously.

cpm4001 said:

1. Yes, it is actually possible; however, you can't end the ship's turn in the city-state itself. I'm also pretty sure embarked Civilian Units won't be able to go through the CS if there's a Worker in the city.

Click to expand...

Actually, I'm pretty sure this is NOT possible. In my current game on Earth, Vancouver is in the approximate location of Panama City. I am allies with Vancouver, but I can't sail through Vancouver from the Atlantic to the Pacific; I have to take a route all the way past the southern tip of South America.

I do think trade routes can pass through "canal" city states though, regardless of your allied status.

Interesting. I tested this and it is as follows:

1. You may pass through the city of a rival civ provided you have open borders.
2. You may *not* pass through a CS with regular units under any circumstances (whether allied or not).
3. Trade goes through city states just fine (even if not allied).
4. Trade through a rival civ's city I didn't test, but I'd assume it works unless you are at war with them.

It all seems fairly counter-intuitive: your trade ships may pass through a City State, but your peaceful exploring Caravels may not! And ofc your actual, red-blooded rivals will *not* try to prevent your passage... I didn't test whether it's possible to pass through a city while you're at war with the civ in question; the mental image is fairly hilarious. 'Just keep 'em cannons-a-blazin', lads; I can see the water on the other side!'

Greizer85 said:

2. You may *not* pass through a CS with regular units under any circumstances (whether allied or not).

Click to expand...

Wow, that's odd...I could've sworn this was possible in the past: in a game I was playing before the Fall Patch, I seem to remember being able to send units through a nearby city-state. Anyone else remember being able to do this?

I can also confirm that with BNW+G&K you cannot enter a CS city under any circumstances, naval or otherwise. With other civs you may, with open borders. Trade routes can always pass through cities and territory regardless of open borders.

radster_X said:

1. Can you do the above? (As in use a city state ally as a canal)
2. Could you do it if they are not your ally?
3. Could you establish a trade route that goes through the city state canal, but not a trade route with the city state itself, if you are an ally of the city state?
4. Could you do Question 3 without being an ally?

Click to expand...

Depends on CS disposition. Friendly CS I can pass through their cities with ships using them as a canal when Friends or higher. So in this case it'd be yes to all the above.

Hostile/Irrational CS I cannot... So they'd be no to the all the above.

Neutral I'm unsure of... some games it seems they act like Friendly others like Hostile.

However, I know for a fact I can pass through Friendly ones - my current game has a Friendly Religious CS (Lhasa) at the southern point of my continent and since I've been friends or better with them and had border permission, my ships have been sailing through their city rather and going around the jut of land that sticks out past them.

Barghaest said:

Depends on CS disposition. Friendly CS I can pass through their cities with ships using them as a canal when Friends or higher. So in this case it'd be yes to all the above.

Hostile/Irrational CS I cannot... So they'd be no to the all the above.

Neutral I'm unsure of... some games it seems they act like Friendly others like Hostile.

However, I know for a fact I can pass through Friendly ones - my current game has a Friendly Religious CS (Lhasa) at the southern point of my continent and since I've been friends or better with them and had border permission, my ships have been sailing through their city rather and going around the jut of land that sticks out past them.

Click to expand...

Hmm not sure what's up here. I tested and this is impossible, regardless of CS disposition. It could be that you have a mod installed that changes this; or that using the Ingame Editor mod to make the isthmus has some unforeseen side effect. However I doubt this, as you can sail just fine through a regular civ's cities using editor-made waterways.

cpm4001 said:

Wow, that's odd...I could've sworn this was possible in the past: in a game I was playing before the Fall Patch, I seem to remember being able to send units through a nearby city-state. Anyone else remember being able to do this?

Click to expand...

Pretty sure that I've done this as well.

Greizer85 said:

Hmm not sure what's up here. I tested and this is impossible, regardless of CS disposition. It could be that you have a mod installed that changes this; or that using the Ingame Editor mod to make the isthmus has some unforeseen side effect. However I doubt this, as you can sail just fine through a regular civ's cities using editor-made waterways.

Click to expand...

Odd... because I'm not technically using a mod right now (did alter some core .xml to adjust game speed but nothing to do with CS/AI scripting) and I can sail through Friendly CS right now with my ships; however, embarked units cannot - and have never - been able to do this, they must disembark to pass through any city.

Another interesting note... my cargo ships can path even through Hostile CS, because I turned on Trade Route overlay and see the arrows going straight through some coastal CS that are hostile in disposition (even though my ships have to go around them).

Now I keep auto-updates turned off because they interfere with my direct .xml editing, so it's possible it was recently affected by a patch I haven't done yet.

Absolutely positively 100% in pre-fall patch game couple months ago I had naval battle where I sailed my fleet through an allied CS on 1-tile isthmus. Numerous times, and that shortcut helped significantly in my war.

Don't know if allied status mattered, don't know if it's changed since, but absolutely positive as that game was very memorable simply because it was one of the very, very few where the AI didnt act like a total clueless jackass and played a decent naval game.

AI still lost but it was enjoyable and memorable as one of my few games where AI naval strategy wasnt just lemmings into water. I vividly recall sailing units through my CS ally helping significantly cut travel time. Perhaps something patched that since.

Zero mods, other than once for the achievement long ago, I've never installed or used a mod.

Greizer85 said:

4. Trade through a rival civ's city I didn't test, but I'd assume it works unless you are at war with them.

Click to expand...

I actually saw a cargo ship belonging to a civ I was at war with passing through my city. The trade route was in place before the war started, but it remained in place rather than disappearing/being forced to go around even after the declaration of war. Not sure what would happen if you created the route during the war though.

As for sailing through CS cities yourself, military naval units can do it, but embarked units & great admirals (and work boats?) can not. Just like passing through occupied tiles/cities with a worker/great person on foot.

I think this settles it: regardless of how it's been before, in the current version of BNW traversing through City States on isthmuses is not possible. (Note that I only used the IGE to give myself the gold for allying and the Destroyer; I built the map in World Builder beforehand and made zero alterations in-game to avoid any possible adverse effects. Ife is a Friendly City State, so that issue is settled here also.)

[Again Imgur breaks the links to my pics... *sigh* Just click on this instead. ]

As to why they would have changed this... Beats me, but if they did then imo they went in the wrong direction. There is absolutely NO reason for this inconvenience to exist in the game... Imo it should be a benefit of allying to have the right to sail through City States - would give you one more reason to keep that crucial CS, even if it had little benefit otherwise.

Greizer85 said:

regardless of how it's been before, in the current version of BNW traversing through City States on isthmuses is not possible.

As to why they would have changed this... Beats me, but if they did then imo they went in the wrong direction. There is absolutely NO reason for this inconvenience to exist in the game... Imo it should be a benefit of allying to have the right to sail through City States - would give you one more reason to keep that crucial CS, even if it had little benefit otherwise.

Click to expand...

This change really sucks.

Playing a game right now where I'm locked in an enclosed ocean. With the only exit being a City State.

I played, knowing that I'd eventually be able to pass my navel units through the allied City State. Until the time came to actually do it.

Wtf...

What a waste of time that game was.