testing warmonger penalty NO DECAY

apocalypse105 · Dec 5, 2013

A lot of people thinx the warmonger penalty isn't broken I decided to test the warmonger penalty out on a small north america map(DLC map)

i played as america and atacked my neighbour pacal in the renaissance with cannons and capture his capital and a other city

my opponents are : shoshone , iroquois , polynesia , aztecs , mayan's(pacal)

After I captured the cities and made peace(pacal is still allive)
polynesia and iroquois denounce me who both have a DOF friendship with me.

I am know in the atomic era and they still hate me for warmonger so it doesn't decays over time 't :rolleyes:

Know I see shoshone taking cities of montezuma one by one iroquois and polynesia don't care not a single denoucnement at shoshone

this warmonger penalty doesn't make any sence :mad:

TheMarshmallowBear · Dec 5, 2013

People are not thinking this logically through

You are one leader who annhilated another nation.. would you trust that nation again? I wouldn't.

It makes total sense.

They've added two additional layers in BNW and Fall patch regarding the Warmonger penalty that balances it out.

the first layer is the basic war and conquering
the second layer is individual's nation's tolerance towards warmongering
and the third and final layer is how much conquering you've done.

Magma_Dragoon · Dec 5, 2013

Small map means larger warmongering penalty

phillipwyllie · Dec 5, 2013

Heed the tool-tip text when you hover your mouse over the target city. If you want to participate in early warmongering do it before you meet anyone else.

otaman1 · Dec 5, 2013

Well, there's a tooltip that tells you if capturing that city would give you a minor or major warmongering penalty. Dunno if there's anything in between.

Polisurgist · Dec 5, 2013

What speed were you playing at, and/or how many turns elapsed between the last warmonger hit you took and when you checked to see if it decayed? The decay period is long, and checking eras isn't the best way to determine whether it's reduced or gone.

And are you playing with any mods? I wouldn't entirely rule out there being a bug here, and while most of the posts here are fine advice for avoiding the warmonger penalty to begin with, they don't necessarily touch on the specific matter of decay.

Aristos · Dec 5, 2013

Settled.

Decay is constant, per turn, and modifiable in the XML files. But it is there.

Code:

/// Updates how much of a threat each player is to run amok and break everything
void CvDiplomacyAI::DoUpdateWarmongerThreats()
{
	ThreatTypes eThreatType;

	int iThreatValue;

	int iNumPlayersKilled;
	int iNumPlayersEver = GC.getGame().countCivPlayersEverAlive();
	int iPlayersKilledPercent;
	int iWarmongerMod;

	PlayerTypes eLoopPlayer;
	for(int iPlayerLoop = 0; iPlayerLoop < MAX_MAJOR_CIVS; iPlayerLoop++)
	{
		eLoopPlayer = (PlayerTypes) iPlayerLoop;

		if(IsPlayerValid(eLoopPlayer))
		{
			eThreatType = THREAT_NONE;
			iThreatValue = GetOtherPlayerWarmongerScore(eLoopPlayer);

			// Now do the final assessment
			if(iThreatValue >= /*200*/ GC.getWARMONGER_THREAT_CRITICAL_THRESHOLD())
				eThreatType = THREAT_CRITICAL;
			else if(iThreatValue >= /*100*/ GC.getWARMONGER_THREAT_SEVERE_THRESHOLD())
				eThreatType = THREAT_SEVERE;
			else if(iThreatValue >= /*50*/ GC.getWARMONGER_THREAT_MAJOR_THRESHOLD())
				eThreatType = THREAT_MAJOR;
			else if(iThreatValue >= /*20*/ GC.getWARMONGER_THREAT_MINOR_THRESHOLD())
				eThreatType = THREAT_MINOR;

			// Also test % of players killed (in case we're on a map with very few players or something)
			iNumPlayersKilled = GetOtherPlayerNumMinorsConquered(eLoopPlayer) + GetOtherPlayerNumMajorsConquered(eLoopPlayer);
			if(iNumPlayersKilled > 0)
			{
				iPlayersKilledPercent = iNumPlayersKilled * 100 / iNumPlayersEver;

				iWarmongerMod = GetWarmongerHate() - /*5*/ GC.getDEFAULT_FLAVOR_VALUE();	// Calculate difference from default
				iWarmongerMod *= /*10*/ GC.getWARMONGER_THREAT_PERSONALITY_MOD();	// This will range from -50 to 50 (%)
				iPlayersKilledPercent += (iPlayersKilledPercent * iWarmongerMod / 100);

				if(iPlayersKilledPercent >= /*40*/ GC.getWARMONGER_THREAT_CRITICAL_PERCENT_THRESHOLD())
					eThreatType = THREAT_CRITICAL;
				if(iPlayersKilledPercent >= /*25*/ GC.getWARMONGER_THREAT_SEVERE_PERCENT_THRESHOLD())
					eThreatType = THREAT_SEVERE;
			}

			// Set the Threat
			SetWarmongerThreat(eLoopPlayer, eThreatType);

			// decay score
			ChangeOtherPlayerWarmongerAmount(eLoopPlayer, /*-5*/GC.getWARMONGER_THREAT_PER_TURN_DECAY());
		}
	}
}

CvDiplomacyAI.cpp: line 7080

LoudZoo · Dec 5, 2013

A neophyte's question, is there any discernable difference in the warmongering penalty if you simply raze the cities? Or is "capturing a city" a catch all phrase that covers razing, puppeting and annexing?

jddods · Dec 5, 2013

LoudZoo said:
A neophyte's question, is there any discernable difference in the warmongering penalty if you simply raze the cities? Or is "capturing a city" a catch all phrase that covers razing, puppeting and annexing?

it's all the same for the penalty

Talcove · Dec 5, 2013

Warmonger hate does decay, but while people hate you for being a warmonger, they will start to hate you for other things as well. The trick is to make friendly with the people who dislike you, so that the extra hate doesn't pile up like crazy.

Aristos · Dec 5, 2013

talcove said:
warmonger hate does decay, but while people hate you for being a warmonger, they will start to hate you for other things as well. The trick is to make friendly with the people who dislike you, so that the extra hate doesn't pile up like crazy.

e-x-a-c-t-l-y.

goremand · Dec 5, 2013

TheKingOfBigOz said:
People are not thinking this logically through

You are one leader who annhilated another nation.. would you trust that nation again? I wouldn't.

It makes total sense.

I keep hearing different justifications... does the AI hate warmongering because war is evil? Or because they are afraid of being eliminated by warmongerers? Or because successful warmongering is indicative of a skilled player?

apocalypse105 · Dec 5, 2013

TheKingOfBigOz said:
People are not thinking this logically through

You are one leader who annhilated another nation.. would you trust that nation again? I wouldn't.

It makes total sense.

They've added two additional layers in BNW and Fall patch regarding the Warmonger penalty that balances it out.

the first layer is the basic war and conquering
the second layer is individual's nation's tolerance towards warmongering
and the third and final layer is how much conquering you've done.

I didn't kill him off just capture 2 cities and made peache and know the world goes beserck

Magma_Dragoon · Dec 5, 2013

Two cities is a much larger fraction of the total number of cities on a small map with only six players than a standard map with eight. It also depends on what the other AI's relation are with you and your victim, if they love you and hate him, they won't care that you took him down a few pegs.

apocalypse105 · Dec 5, 2013

Magma_Dragoon said:
Two cities is a much larger fraction of the total number of cities on a small map with only six players than a standard map with eight. It also depends on what the other AI's relation are with you and your victim, if they love you and hate him, they won't care that you took him down a few pegs.

Just a question does the penalty of capturing a city relate on how many cities the other player has?

So lets say the maya had 3 cities and i capture 2 i get a huge penalty( which happened )

if the maya had 5 cities i captured 2 it would be less? Because they had more cities

jddods · Dec 5, 2013

goremand said:
I keep hearing different justifications... does the AI hate warmongering because war is evil? Or because they are afraid of being eliminated by warmongerers? Or because successful warmongering is indicative of a skilled player?

it's just part of the game mechanics.

phillipwyllie · Dec 6, 2013

otaman1 said:
Well, there's a tooltip that tells you if capturing that city would give you a minor or major warmongering penalty. Dunno if there's anything in between.

The tool-tip text doesn't reflect the names given to whats in the sdk source code(see Aristos's post), nor the path notes. We have 'minor', 'major', 'severe', and 'critical' threats. I've only seen 'minor', 'major', and 'extreme' used in the tool-tip. Dunno what 'extreme' refers to, I suspect that means 'critical'.

Moriarte · Dec 6, 2013

It does bother me too. Once you capture few cities, well, there is no way back, except in extreme circumstances a civ might offer you DoF if they're about to get completely destroyed by someone else. But it only bothers me from the perspective of immersion. It just annoys me when everyone is coming to me every turn to throw insults, even though "afraid" should be a more appropriate reaction in this particular instance. I am world leader in science and army, dammit! And you come to me with insults? That's not realistic..

On the other hand it makes the game more difficult than before as you have to be careful with diplo and set up your economy in such way that you will be self sufficient once the war campaign is in full throttle. And I'm all up for that. If firaxis can't be bothered to improve AI, so be it, let's make it more challenging somewhere else. I find deity games after patch incredibly complex and interesting because of this new change.

If i was responsible in balancing this thing i would propose this: no warmongering hate from conquest from natural warmonger civs. (Mongolia, Huns, etc.) Keep the rest as it is.

True_Candyman · Dec 6, 2013

Moriarte said:
It does bother me too. Once you capture few cities, well, there is no way back, except in extreme circumstances a civ might offer you DoF if they're about to get completely destroyed by someone else. But it only bothers me from the perspective of immersion. It just annoys me when everyone is coming to me every turn to throw insults, even though "afraid" should be a more appropriate reaction in this particular instance. I am world leader in science and army, dammit! And you come to me with insults? That's not realistic..

On the other hand it makes the game more difficult than before as you have to be careful with diplo and set up your economy in such way that you will be self sufficient once the war campaign is in full throttle. And I'm all up for that. If firaxis can't be bothered to improve AI, so be it, let's make it more challenging somewhere else. I find deity games after patch incredibly complex and interesting because of this new change.

If i was responsible in balancing this thing i would propose this: no warmongering hate from conquest from natural warmonger civs. (Mongolia, Huns, etc.) Keep the rest as it is.

On the realism front, is everyone afraid of America right now or are they throwing insults?

I think warmonger hate is a fine thing. If you're trying to be diplomatic, you need to actually be diplomatic!!! You can't solve problems in civ (or in life kids

) by beating someone into submission. Everyone knows it's happened and they aren't going to trust or respect you.

Ravellion · Dec 6, 2013

Yeah, the decay is really slow, and a major warmonger penalty will last the entire game. Once you conquer a civ, you'd better be willing to kill everyone.

I played a scrambled large North America map recently. I was stuck in the frozen tundra and only had room for one more city before bordering the Celts. Obviously I had to kill the Celts sooner or later, so I chose sooner. He was dead turn 95, I took both his cities, razed one. Greece and the Inca were still angry with me in turn 330 because of the warmonger penalty (not denouncing because of chain denouncing: the warmonger penalty tooltip still showed up in bright red for the both of them).

Thankfully, there were civs in the Mexico region that I hadn't met yet at the time, so I had some friends. Playing continents type maps probably really helps; that way you can kill someone who is on your doorstep and later on still meet some potential friends.

testing warmonger penalty NO DECAY

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