Brainstorming Thread - One-Trick-Pony Techs

Arakhor · Sep 28, 2014

Do replaced buildings pop back if power fails? I don't think a telegraph office reappears if your telephone network goes down, for instance.

The firts option for Meeting of the Minds sounds fairest to me.

Definitely go for Cybernetics over Bionics. The former sounds more sci-fi than the latter.

I agree with Rezca. Longevity seems a natural fit for Regenerative Medicine.

<Nexus> · Sep 28, 2014

Afforess said:
The third trait is possible, but my concern is not with the technical aspect, but the balancing aspect. Being able to pick a trait in game, part way through the game, that seems highly exploitable. There are certain trait combinations that don't exist because they are too powerful (see: Industrious trait), and this would suddenly allow players to pick those traits. I am worried the entire balance of traits, which is designed to be useful over the course of an entire game, would be suddenly thrown off. Certain traits like Nomad would be pointless to adopt at Humanism. Others, like Deceiver or Industrious might be too powerful.

Vokarya said:
True about the early-game/late-game. I'd completely forgotten about Nomad. I was thinking Creative is also much more powerful in the early game.

An honest question:
Which is more unbalancing? Give every civ an extra power or give an extra-powerful GP to the first to research, thus making it a rich-getting-richer tech?

(I hope I can put my thoughts clearly down).
I really think that a "third trait tech" is something that could shake up things a bit, something that may encourage players to keep playing for, because it is such a unique event in the game that not had happened yet. (And for the same reason a "fourth trait tech" could fit into the transhuman era too.)
I wouldn't worry about imbalance, since every civ would get a new trait and it could (should) be set up for the AI to pick one randomly from the stronger traits or even to pick the best combo (after all there is always a complain about AI not strong enough). Of course the human player could choose any (even nomad).

Couldn't we at least give it a try and see if it is really that unbalancing?

Arakhor · Sep 28, 2014

I agree with that analysis. That's why I suggested the 'improved traits' idea, instead of the Renaissance Man idea (which I think is still conceptually interesting).

Rezca · Sep 28, 2014

What Sogroon said about 'Is it really that unbalancing if everyone can do it?' is vaguely reminiscent of the arguments people who supported Halo 4's "Personal Ordinances" and other additions always pulled up, but it never made them any less unbalanced just because everyone had access to them. (With that in mind, the Titans from Age of Mythology also comes to mind. Everyone could get them sure, but they changed the game so vastly and IMO often not in a good way.)

If there were some 'minor' Traits that could be picked from, like secondary ones that weren't as powerful and sophisticated as the default ones. Well, most of the default ones (*cough Protective

)

Honestly, if there were going to be a third trait thing, I'd want it done from the beginning of the game. Even then, I never liked that in C2C and RI so I don't see myself liking it in AND either - and it adds yet another variable for balancing eras into the game too. As unbalanced as the later eras are as it is, I don't know how good of an idea that'd be (Of course, it might not have much an impact at all, who knows)

45°38'N-13°47'E · Sep 28, 2014

I think a third trait would unbalance things, especially if starting from a certain point and not from beginning. I think I'm mostly against it

<Nexus> · Sep 28, 2014

I still don't see why it would be unbalancing, but...
The majority don't like it :sad:

About "Renaissance man"
Could we call it instead "Great Polyhistor"? It isn't so era specific, so this new GP could be used in any era. No, no. I don't want the whole GP system to rebuild again :lol:

But I could imagine a few buildings GP points to switch to this one (only a few to keep it very rare). Events could also make use of it or what other ideas we may have in the future.

Randomness · Sep 28, 2014

Vokarya said:
Virtual Democracy: This would be a civic available at Mesh Networks. I'm not really sure what type it would fall under, but it would represent direct citizen voting through electronic means. The effect would be a civic with high upkeep and sensitive to shock (high war weariness, unhappiness from taxes) but very stable, generate lots of culture and (maybe) science, and its greatest strength would be a civic building that allows every city to count as a Palace (if this breaks maintenance completely, then it doesn't have to happen) -- this would be called the Voting Uplink. The reason for this is to make sure that a Wonder like Independence Hall doesn't break this civic completely; you would need a Computer Network as a prerequisite for the Voting Uplink.

Instead of a new civic, why don't you just add the Voting Uplink to the Republic civic. Republic seems to do what you want already and adding a building that removes its biggest malus would be pretty powerful, but would not cause any problems with things like Independence Hall.

EDIT: Also, it might be interesting to give a "Renaissance man" to every civ once they discover Humanism instead of just the first to reach it.

Vokarya · Sep 28, 2014

Randomness said:
Instead of a new civic, why don't you just add the Voting Uplink to the Republic civic. Republic seems to do what you want already and adding a building that removes its biggest malus would be pretty powerful, but would not cause any problems with things like Independence Hall.

I don't want to do that. I want to keep Republic where it is for small, early civilizations and have Virtual Democracy/Voting Uplink be compatible with the Democracy and Federation civics.

Randomness said:
EDIT: Also, it might be interesting to give a "Renaissance man" to every civ once they discover Humanism instead of just the first to reach it.

That's not a bad idea. The only immediate barrier would probably be coming up with a ton of unique names so that we don't run out in games with lots of civilizations. I know I generally run out of Great General names well before the Industrial Era (revolts spawn Great General units which eat up the names available). Does anyone else think that getting one RM for free upon entering the Renaissance would be broken? Conceptually, we can do this with a Python effect.

Vokarya · Sep 28, 2014

Rezca said:
Longevity as a project could require both Regenerative Medicine and Smart Drugs?
I might not know the specifics, but Anti-Aging Medicine and Regenerative Medicine both seem like... Well, like they'd accomplish the same thing. So I don't think AAM would be needed.

Projects only allow you to set one prerequisite tech; otherwise, I would have set both Space Stations and Megacorporations for Zurich-Orbital. As it is, there is a workaround in the form of requiring International Space Station before anyone can build Z-O, but that can be broken by rushing Megacorporations and waiting for someone else to build ISS before you build Z-O.

Regenerative Medicine is probably the better fit for Longevity; the only reason I would like Smart Drugs is because SD is sitting at 1.5 on the trick scale (the Research Hospital as 1 and the +2 gold from Pharmacy as 0.5). Regenerative Medicine is only a 2.0 as well, so buttressing it a little wouldn't hurt.

MechatronicJazz · Sep 28, 2014

I like the idea of a Renaissance man as a sort of wild card GP at humanism.

<Nexus> · Sep 29, 2014

Vokarya said:
That's not a bad idea. The only immediate barrier would probably be coming up with a ton of unique names so that we don't run out in games with lots of civilizations. I know I generally run out of Great General names well before the Industrial Era (revolts spawn Great General units which eat up the names available). Does anyone else think that getting one RM for free upon entering the Renaissance would be broken? Conceptually, we can do this with a Python effect.

Yes, get one for everyone

List of great polymaths

Examples of renaissance man

The 2 lists may be (almost) the same and many exist already in an other category but it is good for a start imo. I guess a few names could be switched to RM from others like Leonardo.

Great Generals: I experienced the same. IMO we should get more names for them too.
Top 100 Military Leaders of the 20th Century. 100-51
Top 100 Military Leaders of the 20th Century. 50-21
Top 100 Military Leaders of the 20th Century: 20-1

Arakhor · Sep 29, 2014

Perhaps a more historical list might be more of interest? Adding a huge bunch of 20th Century leaders is just pandering to recentism.

<Nexus> · Sep 29, 2014

Arakhor said:
Perhaps a more historical list might be more of interest? Adding a huge bunch of 20th Century leaders is just pandering to recentism.

That's what I found in about 5 minutes

Otherwise (1) the greatest pre20th century leaders are already in the game and (2) in the 20th century wars were more frequent than in the previous eras => more military leaders in the 20th century. But we can also have a look at these lists:
Ancient Greek generals
List of Roman generals

Arakhor · Sep 29, 2014

Vokarya, Regenerative Medicine is by far the better choice for Longevity than Smart Drugs, in my opinion.

Rezca · Sep 29, 2014

Or we could just not have GG's be spawned with revolts. Most of the time I see them being attached to Battering Rams anyway :rolleyes:

Vokarya · Sep 30, 2014

Rezca said:
Or we could just not have GG's be spawned with revolts. Most of the time I see them being attached to Battering Rams anyway

I don't know where that's covered in the code. I like the idea of GG's but wish they wouldn't chew up so many names.

Rezca · Sep 30, 2014

Vokarya said:
I don't know where that's covered in the code. I like the idea of GG's but wish they wouldn't chew up so many names.

Only real problem I have with it is the Great Battering Ram thing I mentioned. Sometimes it seems like they rapidly spawn tons of GG's for free, othertimes it seems like they only get a few. To be honest I don't pay much attention to exactly how often I see them granted the warlords, but I always roll my eyes when I see them walking around with two or three battering rams each with a general attached to them :lol:

Vokarya · Sep 30, 2014

So the last Transhuman tech that I didn't really touch on is Cybernetics. It's currently sitting with only the Cyborg unit. I wonder what we can do with this.

The most obvious things to me seem to be an upgraded Spy unit or a heavy infantry unit - I think the Cyborg is supposed to be the disposable light infantry of the Transhuman Era. The other thing I can think of is a cybernetic-enhancement facility like the current Bioenhancement Center, but I think that kind of upgrade would be automatically built into new units.

gay_Aleks · Sep 30, 2014

Maybe a promotion? Is it possible to move some existing Transhuman promotion related to cyborgs from a tech with sufficient tricks?

<Nexus> · Oct 1, 2014

Vokarya said:
So the last Transhuman tech that I didn't really touch on is Cybernetics. It's currently sitting with only the Cyborg unit. I wonder what we can do with this.

The most obvious things to me seem to be an upgraded Spy unit or a heavy infantry unit - I think the Cyborg is supposed to be the disposable light infantry of the Transhuman Era. The other thing I can think of is a cybernetic-enhancement facility like the current Bioenhancement Center, but I think that kind of upgrade would be automatically built into new units.

Upgraded spy? We have the Nanite spy already. Do we need an other one?
Having a light and a heavy cyborg unit? I dunno. Doesn't sound too good imo.
A few promotions could fit, but how much difference does it make in that era?

Cybernetics reminds me MoO2. There the cybernetic races consumed half unit of food and a half unit of production (instead of the regular 1 food). Maybe we could have a building that converts a small % of :hammers:

into

? Though I guess it is not possible with the current xml stuff.

An other possibility is to add :hammers:

bonus to factories and manufacturing plants buildings and the industry improvement.

Brainstorming Thread - One-Trick-Pony Techs

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