Immortal/Deity - Can't progress, despite a ton of research

You seem to just come up with excuses, rather than try to apply what I've said. Are you going for culture or science? You might want to first learn to win science, as learning to earn science is the basis for almost all victories.

No, there is no runaway. Don't confuse, "beating me" with "runaway". A runaway civ is one that that is huge and as a result, cannot be overcome. You most certainly can overcome any civ on that map. CV runaways are different than SV runaways and the expression is kind of overly used to describe the city in the lead.

You have plenty of defense if you use it well. You are in no real danger. If you continue to preemptively attack civs you think are a threat, you ruin your diplomacy and make it harder on yourself. Get your science in order and your tech lead will translate to a strong military as well.

Your tech will not be behind if you simply fix your mistakes.

I will try to apply what you said. I thanked you for your advice on tile improvements. But nothing can alter the fact that in a lot of my games a civ becomes impossible to sell my jeans to because even if I gain the tech lead, it will find a way to stretch out again. So, at present, I experience runaways. Don't tell me I don't, please. Perhaps playing better will end this, but it's very condescending of you to tell me it doesn't happen.

Secondly, I'm not interested in science victories. Period. I understand that on the higher difficulty levels, science is key to every victory type, and I will continue to try to apply that. But I'm not gonna be building any spaceships on that game, ever.

Lastly, you say that I have enough defence if I use it well. This is simply not the case from what I HAVE EXPERIENCED. Again, maybe I'm doing something wrong, but I understand that I should shield my ranged units with pikes etc and try to hide behind cities etc, but if a civ goes 2 or 3 into honour and my units have only minimal exp from barbs, and they build like 30 units, I run into problems. Severe problems.

So, again, I thank you for your advice, and I will try to apply it and fix my mistakes. But please stop telling me that what is currently happening to me ISN'T, ok?

As for pre-emptive attacks, I don't do that. I'm sorry if that was misunderstood. I attack them when I want to win DV, and I repel them back to their cities (if I am fortunate) on peaceful victories. But they DO attack, even after I've tried diplomatic means of heading it off. I'm big into CS friendships, and that REALLY seems to annoy certain civs, as does pipping them to key wonders. And, to be honest, civs like Wu are programmed to be y covetous little so-and-sos.

I get annoyed when people tell me that it's ALWAYS possible to prevent the DoW. It's isn't. Some AI civs will DoW you regardless, SOMETIMES.

You know how sometimes the AIs do surprising things, like a civ that usually goes tradition going straight piety? Well sometimes, they just won't take peace for an answer, in my experience.

[EDIT: I will definitely make a video so people can see what I'm talking about]

What I'm trying to impress, is if you fix your growth issues, and your science issues, most that other stuff will fix itself.

Once bigger and have more science as a result, you can:
1) build faster.
2) have better military units.
3) be in position to build more tourism.
4) be able to ally more city states.
5) be less of a target from other civ's so they'll leave you alone more often.
6) be able to trade more, as civ's who don't respect your military, don't trade.
7) be able to more easily defend your cities because you have better military units.

Your biggest issues are growth and science, which snowballs into helping every aspect of your game.

consentient said:

I will try to apply what you said. I thanked you for your advice on tile improvements. But nothing can alter the fact that in a lot of my games a civ becomes impossible to sell my jeans to because even if I gain the tech lead, it will find a way to stretch out again. So, at present, I experience runaways. Don't tell me I don't, please. Perhaps playing better will end this, but it's very condescending of you to tell me it doesn't happen.

Secondly, I'm not interested in science victories. Period. I understand that on the higher difficulty levels, science is key to every victory type, and I will continue to try to apply that. But I'm not gonna be building any spaceships on that game, ever.

Lastly, you say that I have enough defence if I use it well. This is simply not the case from what I HAVE EXPERIENCED. Again, maybe I'm doing something wrong, but I understand that I should shield my ranged units with pikes etc and try to hide behind cities etc, but if a civ goes 2 or 3 into honour and my units have only minimal exp from barbs, and they build like 30 units, I run into problems. Severe problems.

So, again, I thank you for your advice, and I will try to apply it and fix my mistakes. But please stop telling me that what is currently happening to me ISN'T, ok?

As for pre-emptive attacks, I don't do that. I'm sorry if that was misunderstood. I attack them when I want to win DV, and I repel them back to their cities (if I am fortunate) on peaceful victories. But they DO attack, even after I've tried diplomatic means of heading it off. I'm big into CS friendships, and that REALLY seems to annoy certain civs, as does pipping them to key wonders. And, to be honest, civs like Wu are programmed to be y covetous little so-and-sos.

I get annoyed when people tell me that it's ALWAYS possible to prevent the DoW. It's isn't. Some AI civs will DoW you regardless, SOMETIMES.

You know how sometimes the AIs do surprising things, like a civ that usually goes tradition going straight piety? Well sometimes, they just won't take peace for an answer, in my experience.

[EDIT: I will definitely make a video so people can see what I'm talking about]

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Yeah, make a video please. That will end the pointless arguments. No need for commentary - just record the screen. this way we can just tell you where exactly you are doing wrong so you can draw some conclusions and fix it

See I personally never build Pikes, Spearmen, Warriors or other of that nonsense when I play peaceful games. All you need are Archers/CB/XB so you can repel all kind of attacks. If the CS gift you a Spearmen or Pikemen - fine, I will take it and either explore with it or put it at the borders, but the city defence must be archers exclusively.

And you need roads, so you can retreat wounded units and bring fresh replacements.

Also, if you settle cities on hill and behind a river and go tradition (oligarchy) and build a wall - 3-4 ranged units can remove many times bigger armies.

Thanks Dragon but how do you stop the ranged units getting Mandelaku'd into shreds without pikes to use ZOC?

And using 3-4 CBs per city or overall?

With only a handful of units, in MY games, I would lose every city I build when the AI decides to go for it.

[EDIT: Yes, I will make a video as soon as I find an app that works on Mac. I've tried Screenflow and Voila, both gave me errors.]

consentient said:

With only a handful of units, in MY games, I would lose every city I build when the AI decides to go for it.

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The base AI isn't very good.

Damaging a unit usually results in the AI fortifying it until healed, even if they're fortifying it under withering ranged fire right outside your (0 health) city.

Actually, there's a threshold in the XML files below which the tactical AI won't attack (I'm not 100% sure if it's based on the unit's health or combat odds). If anything, the default is too high for the level of tactical awareness we as players want of the AI, but it's way too low for the AI to use it's advantages effectively.

So you're saying that in your games damaging units causes them to fortify and heal, every time?

I hardly ever see that in my game. Quite the opposite. A typical initial assault would consist of 3 pikes, 2 CBs and 3 horses and they would all just slog on even after the CBs are dead and they stand no chance of getting my health down.

Often, just as I start to think I'm gonna repel them though, they hit Chivalry and out come 4 knights/mandelaku/whatever from nowhere and smash my ranged units remaining health out of them.

consentient said:

Thanks Dragon but how do you stop the ranged units getting Mandelaku'd into shreds without pikes to use ZOC?

And using 3-4 CBs per city or overall?

With only a handful of units, in MY games, I would lose every city I build when the AI decides to go for it.

[EDIT: Yes, I will make a video as soon as I find an app that works on Mac. I've tried Screenflow and Voila, both gave me errors.]

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Well, every game is different mate. Its not that easy to say what will happen on each map, but if you do the diplo game right, you should not get any wars after turn 100.
You gotta just be friendly with the more aggressive AI - that means mostly to not piss em off, pay em to attack other ppls, not make friends with AI they hate, propose things they like on the WC, make em WC host, trade with them, send em caravans etc.

As far as mac software goes - I am on PC, but I think Quicktime can record screen. You tried that?

As a general rule, to prevent defensive fortification and unit upgrade heals and pillaging, you want to knock out 1 unit at a time. Do not weaken units and move on. Finish them off before moving on. In many cases the best strat is to ignore their ranged units if they only have a few melee units. Killing their melee units prevent them from taking the city, as ranged units cannot. If you cannot take out the melee units before they'd be able to take your city, then focus on their ranged units and let their melee units weaken themselves on your city and finish them off when you can.

There are lots of ways to gain an advantage. And try to station your ranged units on hills so they can fire over rugged terrain.

consentient said:

Secondly, I'm not interested in science victories. Period. I understand that on the higher difficulty levels, science is key to every victory type, and I will continue to try to apply that. But I'm not gonna be building any spaceships on that game, ever.

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Please explain this more. You admit to struggling with victories in general at Immortal, and that CV is harder than SV. So why not master SV before going on to CV?

beetle said:

Please explain this more. You admit to struggling with victories in general at Immortal, and that CV is harder than SV. So why not master SV before going on to CV?

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SV is the most boring thing in the game, there is basicly no difference how you approach it on King and on deity - you only follow same pattern over and over again, while having not too many interactions with the oponents. So at one point, the most normal thing is to stop doing SV at all. SV in emperor and immortal is not much diffrent anyway.

Its a bit harder on deity, but still - everything is more or less same. Make cities, beeline NC, Beeline education, beeline Machinery, beeline ST, bulb Oxford for Radio, get Industrialisation - here you have some free order of techs - beeline plastics - beeline radar - beeline sattelites - advanced balistics - bottom tree - top tree.

well, its funny until you work out how to do it properly in time. After that not that much ... Don't know his reasoning tho Maybe its something different, who knows

Understandable, after a bit, but OP asserts he can’t progress, despite a ton of research, so I would think going back to basics would be a first step.

Going back to the basics and preparing for a victory I'm not interested in, are two different things.

I appreciate all the advice and am preparing to make a LP video on Immortal to test stuff out and showcase how I play.

Watch this space.

OK part one of the video series is up.

Thread is here.

consentient said:

I have searched on google but can't find the Deau culture victory or Klaskeren science victory you speak. Would really appreciate those links!

I would dispute the tech lead = win scenario. In fact, I have a question.

The past two games I've played, I've ended up as the tech leader before T150, AND with the highest science rate (shown by InfoAddict) but have ended up falling behind in tech within the next 30 turns. I want to know how the AI does this? How does it get ahead of me again, since I was out front.

Most recent game, I was early tech lead due a fantastic start with Celts, took a city from Hiawatha from a peace deal, puppeted it to gain 2 new lux, which helped a lot with unhappiness. Checked InfoAddict, had double the science rate of next nearest civ, concentrated on universities and culture buildings for 20 or 30 turns, then went to attack Assyria preemptively and ran into advanced unit!!! Checked InfoAddict, still #1 for techs.

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Klaskeren : http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=523174
Deau : http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=501996

I think, I'll copy those links in my signature as I copy-paste those once a week recently.

Also Thorak Deity science challenge : http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=521065.
And for Warfare this Major league : http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=525372

Play HoF and come to share your experience. It's a good way to improve your gameplay for Deity, even with low level league.

For your issue. Tech league in demagraphics, seems to be from beakers per turn. So if you bulbed a GS, you'll be first. After, if you fall 4 or 5 th, it's just your main rating.

consentient said:

Going back to the basics and preparing for a victory I'm not interested in, are two different things.

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Yes, but going back to basics is almost certainly a prerequisite for getting the victory you are interested. I think you will spend 10x as much time/effort trying to master CV skipping over SV than if you were to master SV first.

consentient said:

Going back to the basics and preparing for a victory I'm not interested in, are two different things.

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Sorry for jumping in, I've been watching this thread a few days.

They're not. Your screenshot shows that you are neglecting growth which is tantamount to self-sabatoge. I hate Science Victories too but I didn't understand how to set and achieve growth targets until I focused on Science Victories. As the previous comment said, it's faster to practice Science first and then branch out into other victories than to tackle other ones directly. You're losing time every game you don't play for SV.

I'm going to reiterate the screenshot feedback already made, sorry:
-Where are your farms?
-7.5 food per turn in the capital? You need consistent 20+ food after turn 110 until the end of the game on a liberty game, much earlier than that on a Tradition game. The gap here between what you are doing and what you could be doing is so, so, grave. You have half the citizens you should.
-Where are your food caravans?
-Don't work regular mines after turn 100 until your city can keep 20+ growth while doing so. Satellites can have smaller growth on a Liberty game, or even stopped growth if you've hit happiness cap, but once you hit Civil Service it should be farms, specialists, and TPs.
-You're working hills with no mines? While you have empty Purple and Scientist specialist slots? Hammers aren't worth stopped growth and lost great people.
-If you are only going to work one scientist slot you might as well work none (might as well not even have a university really).
-Why start a settler when your city was almost done growing a pop? Start settlers when your city just finishes growing a pop. This is basic micro-management. The extra pop will help kick out the settler faster anyway.
-Don't settle after turn 115 ever. Especially not on a supposed culture-focused game. How long will a new city take to make an Opera House? It will be the modern era by the time you finish Hermitage (well, not for you, just for everyone else). I play liberty games exclusively, semi-wide starts (5-7 cities by turn 115). It never works to settle after then. Your existing cities need all the internal trade routes and rush-buys they can get already. Ironworks and Hermitage are out the window. There's no return on investment for cities settled that late. Wait until turn 200 and conquer from the AI to get better cities than you could have settled.
-You are 40 turns behind on even "barely descent" tech rate, ie 125 beakers at turn 125. I play a lot of low-science-focus games so I might stretch to 5-10 turns behind 125. But even skipping rationalism I'm back on descent level by turn 200 thanks to growth. If I'm playing through a really food-poor start I might be less than that, which means I have some conquering to do.
-Take notes on your games, science per turn at certain turns. It's how you benchmark growth. You rejected the feedback that focusing on the AI is distracting you from your own internal mistakes. Well, then play a game without ignoring growth and show us you have the same problems with the AI. You won't have the same problems with the AI.
-Again, I don't play science victories except as a last resort, but I micromanage for optimal growth on every game because that's how you unlock techs. You can't win a culture victory with Pottery.

Thank you Salsa, you've given me a lot to think about

UPDATE: I feel like I have finally cracked it, and managed to score a T261 CV on Deity, as I describe in this post. Thanks to all who helped me