Hiawatha haters unite

JustinianIV · Jan 25, 2014

I'm down! When we gonna roll?!

I say we all denounce him except for one person. This one person pretends to be his only ally. I have no idea where to go from there

Arachnofiend · Jan 25, 2014

JustinianIV said:
I'm down! When we gonna roll?!

I say we all denounce him except for one person. This one person pretends to be his only ally. I have no idea where to go from there

Presumably, Hiawatha and that one ally (presumably me since everyone else here seems to hate the guy) send trade routes to each other and help fund each other's wars until our alliance is completely unstoppable by our weak, whining neighbors. And then I slip into a culture victory via Cult of Personality. :mischief:

Kouvb593kdnuewnd · Jan 25, 2014

GoStu said:
Between the two above, I agree with Arachnofiend. The Longhouse can end up being fewer hammers than a normal workshop. There's a certain window and tech route where you can have your Lumber Mills be 4 Production 1 Food while a Mine is 3 Production though. It's not useless, but it's a LONG way from the best UB... I'd reserve that title for the Bazaar or the Ikanda, depending on playstyle.

It takes 10 hammers for the workshop to give one more, while the longhouse gives one extra per forest worked that can be multiplie with other things.
A 3 production 1 food tile is better then a 3 production tile or a 1 food 2 production tile.
The Longhouse also cost less to build.
Yes it can give less hammer then the workshop, but much more often it will give you alot more.

As to the UA: it's sort of useful depending on city placement and how the forests tend to place themselves on the map. It can be nice for free City Connections, but I've had starts with Hiawatha where I was more frustrated than anything. Your units can clear the forest in your territory with ease, but all surrounding forests are still Rough to you was well.

The UA is very good for defence to, having enemies that have to move throught a forest to get to your cities while your units can flank them very easy and kill them off.
Togther with the Connections it can help you get makes it very usefull for fast expansion, but its usefullness is dependent on what land you get.

The UU is really, really meh. It's not stronger than its contemporaries (except in forest/jungle), so it's not a monster on a rush like Immortals, Hoplites, or Jagswords can be. Not requiring Iron is a convenience at best.

The UU is very good toghter with the UA in defences, its very strong in forest and jungles.
Its not really for rushing because you should build alot of cities so you don't really need to capture from others.
You can allways get it to and build alot of them.

To take most advantage of the Civ you should expand alot like the ai do, the civ don't help that much if you plan on a smal empire.

Callonia · Jan 25, 2014

Well last night.... You guys will be happy to hear this.

Iroquois started next to Siam.

I seized the Mountain Fuji on a big island north of Iroquois. South of me is the city state of Riga which I have designs on for gunboat diplomacy.

One turn before Gunboat Diplomacy unlocks, Iroquois dow'd Riga.

I denounce Iroquois for it in attempt to warn his soldiers away.

Gunboat diplomacy unlocks, iroquois troops march into Riga's border, Riga buy walls.

Then I dow Iroquois in a fit of rage and moved all my stationed Ironclads/Frigates next to mountain Fuji.

Frigates harass the invading iroquois troops in Riga, while my Ironclads stole Montreal and Brantford away from the Iroquois.

Shaka, Siam dow'd on Iroquois.

Shaka took Manila away from Iroquois which was already puppeted by the iroquois in first place xD

Siam took his capital. Several more civs dow'd on Iroquois until he got reduced to a landlocked city state. And Riga is now my ally. And I obtained several good extra ports that I wanted to make my hold stronger in the Siam territory.

CHEESE! · Jan 25, 2014

Denkt said:
Why hate somebody that actually tries to win

Shaka tries to win. Do you like Shaka, Denkt? Do you?

direblade99 · Jan 26, 2014

CHEESE! said:
Shaka tries to win. Do you like Shaka, Denkt? Do you?

I do

LoneRebel · Jan 26, 2014

An interesting point was raised here, that those two AI scourges, Alex and Hiawatha, manage to become successful because of their AI flavors rather than anything intrinsic to their civs. The Iroquois are only an average civ in human hands, and as for Greece, I remember reading in another thread that in the hands of a human player Greece isn't that good (it's good, but not THAT good).

Yet in the (nonexistent) hands of the AI, Greece and the Iroquois become the devil incarnate. Presumably at least partially because they are able to take advantage of the AI bonuses better than most, as someone said.

GhostSalsa · Jan 26, 2014

GoStu said:
Between the two above, I agree with Arachnofiend. The Longhouse can end up being fewer hammers than a normal workshop. There's a certain window and tech route where you can have your Lumber Mills be 4 Production 1 Food while a Mine is 3 Production though. It's not useless, but it's a LONG way from the best UB...

Yeah, Pocatello is obnoxious too. The sight of a Shoshone settler really has me on edge. I can't predict how that goddamn bloom is going to swallow terrain, but I know it's not gonna be cool to be next to.

I might love the longhouse if it itself had a reduced build cost. 50 cheaper hammers to make up for the lost free production any other forest civ would have got from chopping by now is far far far from an unreasonable perk. EDIT: oh it already does. I thought regular workshops were also 100. Only 20 hammers better - not enough.

I usually restart when I'm near Pocatello. If it was still G&K I'd conquer him in classical because he is an existential threat - but in BNW your hands are tied wrt early conquest so it's not even worth the headache of trying to coexist.

Arachnofiend · Jan 26, 2014

If you can keep track of the Shoshone, stealing his settlers before they build the city is a viable option. Doing that doesn't increase the diplomatic penalty in comparison to just DOW'ing in the first place. Nobody will really mind other than Pocatello.

GhostSalsa · Jan 26, 2014

Arachnofiend said:
If you can keep track of the Shoshone, stealing his settlers before they build the city is a viable option. Doing that doesn't increase the diplomatic penalty in comparison to just DOW'ing in the first place. Nobody will really mind other than Pocatello.

I have done the pillage-and-steal an opponent to death thing and it's effective but boring and scammy. I understand it's optimal in the current game balance, but I prefer cold war or conquest with a strong AI to farming a weak one like obvious exploits are some legit mini-game.

Kouvb593kdnuewnd · Jan 26, 2014

GhostSalsa said:
I might love the longhouse if it itself had a reduced build cost. 50 cheaper hammers to make up for the lost free production any other forest civ would have got from chopping by now is far far far from an unreasonable perk. EDIT: oh it already does. I thought regular workshops were also 100. Only 20 hammers better - not enough.

Chopping down forest in most cases hurt your long time production, often for doubtfull gains of food.

The longhouse don't need that many forest to be more effective then the workshop, remember that the extra production from the longhouse can be multiply while the 10% can't, and if you chop forest you will likley weaken the effect of the workshop to.

Making it even cheaper then now is not a good thing, its very very strong in right spot allready, and making it even stronger is not a good thing.

Arachnofiend · Jan 26, 2014

Resources now are better than resources later. I'd gladly chop down some forests to get my National College up a little earlier, or build that wonder a little faster that I know someone else is competing for.

There's really no reason for the Longhouse to drop the % bonus. Even with it there are better UB's in the game.

yosefm · Jun 6, 2016

Interesting. I found this thread in a search before starting a topic to ask why I always seem to clobber the iroquis. They seem formidable and at times they are, but not so hard to beat if you set your mind to it. I play King.

Maybe some of it is from playing Standard maps, I see most posters play Large where he can expand more. Other than that, he does build a formidable Mohawk army, but in my last game I beat his horde with the puny army of a culture/tall Brazil using the Soviet strategy: let him crawl through your wide open spaces, taking him out with archers, then when nothing is left of his war machine, strike back.

I actually started that war with him (and the next) while he was a real doll, because unlike the previous claims that he won't bother with religion, he actually nearly clobbered my own religion, and war was the only way to keep my religion - and then another war because even with two cities he was too good at this. Must have taken an awesome Panthen belief early.

Other games I've seen him settle for relatively small empires ending up 3rd place or so in score. So yeah, he's formidable but not without answers.

johnny_rudeboy · Jun 6, 2016

Krajzen said:
I found it ridiculous that the two most land - grabbing civs in C5 are Iroquis and Shoshone, Native American tribes

Dear fellow Hiawatha Haters, I have a story which will cheer you up:

In my Venice archipelago game, Hiawatha was - guess what! - performing infinite city spam. He had something like ~28 cities (the other most expanding civ had like two times less cities?...), he had cities in the middle of other AI empires, two cities close to my Venice, cities in one tile islands, cities in the flat desert and cities in the snow. All of that while being usual sociopathic Hiawatha - "Hi my friend, I take whatever I want and I don't care about your land - oh my God, why are you so angry? You warmongering menace to the world!"

And somewhere in the modern era, it everything went to hell. Basically, my Freedom ideology created revolutionary wave in his empire, and in the meantime all nations of the world attacked him - me, Indonesia, Japan, Babylon, Aztecs, Netherlands, Korea, Germany... It was beautiful. Giant Iroquis empire was massacred and during ąpproximately 20 turns he lost 80% of his cities, including capital. After that Great Collapse, he was world's scapegoat.

Wonderful.

That made me smile

Mustakrakish · Jun 6, 2016

That necro made me smile.

Hiawatha haters unite

JustinianIV

Warlord

Arachnofiend

Perturbed Pugilist

Kouvb593kdnuewnd

Left Forever

Callonia

Deity

CHEESE!

On a long nostalgia trip

direblade99

Warlord

LoneRebel

Emperor

GhostSalsa

Emperor

Arachnofiend

Perturbed Pugilist

GhostSalsa

Emperor

Kouvb593kdnuewnd

Left Forever

Arachnofiend

Perturbed Pugilist

yosefm

Chieftain

johnny_rudeboy

Warlord

Mustakrakish

In 'Node' We Trust

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