Resurrecting the Aifons - a sea-dwelling civ for FF

Opera said:

Yeah, interesting. Reminds me of the fleet in Suikoden V. Sort of floating "city" too. However, I don't see the Aifons as a civ living in a floating flowing city. And they're gone, dammit, let them be!

By the way, how hard would it be to code a floating city?

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Haha that's why I've never tried. The Aifons are gone, and should remain that way.... I said so way back when this thread first started.

As for a floating city, I do not know. I know that when you capture a city, it's actually destroyed and a new city is created. Would have to do the same basic thing..... Make a new city, with the same stats, one tile away, and destroy the original.

Valkrionn said:

Haha that's why I've never tried. The Aifons are gone, and should remain that way.... I said so way back when this thread first started.

As for a floating city, I do not know. I know that when you capture a city, it's actually destroyed and a new city is created. Would have to do the same basic thing..... Make a new city, with the same stats, one tile away, and destroy the original.

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Guh. Would you at least be able to move the units without recreating them? That would be a nightmare figuring out all the age, special triggers on creation, etc....


Might be easier to create a civilization that doesn't actually have cities. Just make the floating "city" a ship. I know the barbs don't lose when they are sans-city...seems like you could tweak it so a civ stays alive until it loses the last unit.

Vermicious Knid said:

Guh. Would you at least be able to move the units without recreating them? That would be a nightmare figuring out all the age, special triggers on creation, etc....


Might be easier to create a civilization that doesn't actually have cities. Just make the floating "city" a ship. I know the barbs don't lose when they are sans-city...seems like you could tweak it so a civ stays alive until it loses the last unit.

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Or a civ that has only one actual city (as was mentioned earlier in the thread) and a bunch of Nomad Camp style floating "city units" to use your idea. The real city could be based on Aifon, a small atoll (like in Waterworld) and rely on slaverushing and the heron throne for production?

Or you could do a coastal civ, a bit like Lanun but different: every non-coast or non-ocean tile would give +1. The capital would automatically spread a special water terrain on which all "aifon" units could walk and be invisible. Of course, this terrain wouldn't spread outside cultural borders (which should be enabled to spread far in the ocean). They wouldn't have a chance to keep a non-coastal city... +20 citizens?

I'm sorta thinking this up as I go along, so forgive the poor structuring of the following... and I'm assuming that everything I describe is somehow doable.

Instead of the Aifons, I propose:

The Civilization: The Vodyanoi, humanoid fish people from the sea.
Leaders: Unknown.
City names: Compound words (I think that's the right term ) i.e.: Serpentblade, Sealtusk, Wallrust, etc

Hero: Unknown.

Palace Mana: No idea.
Water for sure, though!

Cities: Cities should be encouraged to be built by coasts (with bonus health/food there), as land-locked areas have large penalties and river-side areas having less.


The Units: Many units can be 'thralls', land-dwellers enslaved by the Vodyanoi which are the same as normal units. Units that are Vodyanoi receive the promotion: Vodyanoi, which gives Water Walking, Amphibious, and gives double movement in ocean and coasts (and lakes, too, I guess), reduced defense in desert terrain and, say, +25% attack/defense in ocean/coast/Flooding (detailed below).

Their UUs ought to be recon-sorts of units, I guess, and they'd have classic fish-monster: Sahaugin, Naga, etc. Why recon units? Well, something has to explain how they enslave the land-dwellers.

The Naval unit line should become a sea monster line, through use of UUs. Similar, but maybe they can go on land (like a turtle) or something.


Buildings: No idea. Maybe the Granary should be removed, and a building that works like it but for fish resources (fish, clams) should take its place in a seafaring tech somewhere. After all, the Vodyanoi aren't vegetarians!


Unique Features: Flooding. Works similarly to spreading Hell Terrain, except it only reduces the usefulness of the tile, effecting food and health negatively, for the most part, as well as making the tile harder to move through. It should not happen in desert tiles. I guess it should only occur in Vodyanoi land, slowly leaving after the Vodyanoi are driven out of the area. If it can spread past their land, maybe it should destroy improvements, or lower the defensive value of the land (for non-Vodyanoi) Edit: It would also reduce the penalties incurred for being a landlocked tile for the Vodyanoi.


The Vodyanoi will excel in Island-y areas, as the Vodyanoi can quickly assault the land, and retreat back to the safety of their islands. A strong naval assault will be needed to break to the land of a Vodyanoi-controlled fortress.

Opera said:

Or you could do a coastal civ, a bit like Lanun but different: every non-coast or non-ocean tile would give +1. The capital would automatically spread a special water terrain on which all "aifon" units could walk and be invisible. Of course, this terrain wouldn't spread outside cultural borders (which should be enabled to spread far in the ocean). They wouldn't have a chance to keep a non-coastal city... +20 citizens?

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Heh so these guys would really love their coastal resorts. For the terrain you could probably get away with using marches or swamps instead of a new type. Those are both reasonable watery terrain types.

@deadliver: No I couldn't as I'm talking of a new terrain (maybe a feature?) spreading on ocean.

@Unit_666: I like your idea. Maybe because some of its aspects looks like some of mine

Opera said:

@deadliver: No I couldn't as I'm talking of a new terrain (maybe a feature?) spreading on ocean.

@Unit_666: I like your idea. Maybe because some of its aspects looks like some of mine

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Oh I see now. How about using the kelp from Orbi? ever heard of Orbi?

Opera said:

@Unit_666: I like your idea. Maybe because some of its aspects looks like some of mine

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There was about six posts while I was typing it up... :\

Yeah, why not? Not quite what I was thinking though. I was thinking that this terrain/feature would be like underwater lands, caverns deep inside, below the city, big shells used as shelters, etc.

@Unit_666: Believe me, I'm not saying you used my idea (and even if you'd have done so, whatever?). I'm sure the idea was mentioned way before in the thread (coastal cities). Your idea is far more elaborate than mine, which is cool. And seems way more doable than a floating city.

So a civ with one city (probably on a one-hex island) and some floating mega-ships that gather booty (produce supplies/slaves/something post-combat). Probably doable as a Lanun minor leader...heck probably something I can manage.


The vodyanoi idea is also cool. The shallows terrain isn't being used for anything right now...giving them big bonuses in shallows and the ability to spread it would be easy as heck. Shallows are just about useless for other civs...Could probably give them a stealth ability while waterwalking...

The sea monsters as naval units is the Jotnar schtick right now...but honestly I think huge viking longships would make more sense and look cooler for the Jots. So the vodyanoi could have the sea serpents and turtles, along with Kraken as a higher-tier unit. Maybe crabs if someone can find art for it?

The mechanic of invisible waterwalking freaks suddenly raiding your coastal town is perfect and distinctive. Probably should add a unit that can hang around offshore a rival coastal city and cause problems (unhealth, unhappiness)...can simulate encouraging cthulhu-esque cults, getting busy and spreading the "Innsmouth look", etc...

Oooh, I never thought of invisiblity.

Great ideas, Vermicious.

Opera said:

Yeah, why not? Not quite what I was thinking though. I was thinking that this terrain/feature would be like underwater lands, caverns deep inside, below the city, big shells used as shelters, etc.

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I get ya. I guess it all depends on whether or not this will be a lanun reboot or a whole new monstrous race of undersea dwellers intent on pillaging the dirt dwellers. *shakes a ragged claw*

Vermicious Knid said:

So a civ with one city (probably on a one-hex island) and some floating mega-ships that gather booty (produce supplies/slaves/something post-combat). Probably doable as a Lanun minor leader...heck probably something I can manage.


The vodyanoi idea is also cool. The shallows terrain isn't being used for anything right now...giving them big bonuses in shallows and the ability to spread it would be easy as heck. Shallows are just about useless for other civs...Could probably give them a stealth ability while waterwalking...

The sea monsters as naval units is the Jotnar schtick right now...but honestly I think huge viking longships would make more sense and look cooler for the Jots. So the vodyanoi could have the sea serpents and turtles, along with Kraken as a higher-tier unit. Maybe crabs if someone can find art for it?

The mechanic of invisible waterwalking freaks suddenly raiding your coastal town is perfect and distinctive. Probably should add a unit that can hang around offshore a rival coastal city and cause problems (unhealth, unhappiness)...can simulate encouraging cthulhu-esque cults, getting busy and spreading the "Innsmouth look", etc...

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giant vikings does sound cool...make it happen and i'll double your wages!

Hemah looked at the sea. It was calm, the waves gently washing the shore down the cliff. He heard footsteps behind him. The man slowly approached him and stopped by his side. Hemah realized that he was expecting that man, that it was why he came here in the first place.
‘What are you thinking about?’ The man asked.
Hemah hesitated for a moment.
‘Aifons?’ A question rather than a statement. Was he really thinking about them? ‘But they’re gone.’
‘They have never been truly gone.’
Hemah wanted to turn his head to see the man’s face but something stopped him. The sea . It was no longer calm. The waves were now reaching up to his feet, the wind was growing stronger the sound of thunder echoed under the dark sky. He felt the presence of something evil in the water.
‘You have to find us.’
Hemah opened his eyes. The sea was calm again and the man was gone, but the feeling of evil presence remained.

Two water dwelling civilizations: Aifnos and Strange Creatures Without a Name at the Moment

The Aifons were not destroyed (at least not all of them) but rather captured and used as SCs’ slaves until recently they rebelled against their masters and now they seek retribution. Both civs are at war with each other.

Aifons are more Kuriotatesque, with small number of cites while SCs prefer plenty of smaller cities (probably only able to work first circle like the Jotnar).
Their ocean cities are invisible for anyone but the other aquamen. Most of their units are also inwisible on water. To be able to see their ocean cities you have to research Message from the Depth or Optics. Their ocean cities can be attacked by water walking units and most ships and are automatically razed. They can settle on land and their land cities act completely normal, but they get -1 and from land tiles.

There should be a number of ocean-based resources that would only be visible to Aifons and SCs (and Lanun in case of pearls). I suggest that ocean and coast tiles yield should be changed for them (ocean 1 1 , sea (new) 2 , coast 2 1 all + 1 from sailing, coral unique feature gives -1 + 1 with no effect on yield for land dwellers) with a bunch of special improvements (like kelp farm) and special worker unit.

Ocean cities do not gain culture at all; instead Aifons have a special building that gives a one-time boost of 10 so they can work the second ring.
Most units would be unique and they would all start with water walking and a promotion that would give double movement in ocean/sea, -% strength on land and would make it impossible to enter desert.

They would not be able to adopt any religion, and they would not spread to they lands. Aifons would have a ritual Awake Danalin, which would give them some bonuses and allow OO leaders to choose their alignment giving new units based on their choice (it would also affect heroes somehow).

Oh, and how about a submarine hero available for everyone (or rather the first civ to complete it to be exact)?

Bob the Barbari said:

Hemah looked out into the sea. It was calm, the waves gently washing the shore down the cliff. He heard footsteps behind him. The man slowly approached him and stopped by his side. Hemah realized that he was expecting that man, that it was why he came here in the first place.
‘What are you thinking about?’ The man asked.
Hemah hesitated for a moment.
‘Aifons?’ A question rather than a statement. Was he really thinking about them? ‘But they’re gone.’
‘They have never been truly gone.’
Hemah wanted to turn his head to see the man’s face but something stopped him. The sea . It was no longer calm. The waves were now reaching up to his feet, the wind was growing stronger the sound of thunder echoed under the dark sky. He felt the presence of something evil in the water.
‘You have to find us.’
Hemah opened his eyes. The sea was calm again and the man was gone, but the feeling of evil presence remained.

Two water dwelling civilizations: Aifnos and Strange Creatures Without a Name at the Moment

The Aifons were not destroyed (at least not all of them) but rather captured and used as SCs’ slaves until recently they rebelled against their masters and now they seek retribution. Both civs are at war with each other.

Aifons are more Kuriotatesque, with small number of cites while SCs prefer plenty of smaller cities (probably only able to work first circle like the Jotnar).
Their ocean cities are invisible for anyone but the other aquamen. Most of their units are also inwisible on water. To be able to see their ocean cities you have to research Message from the Depth or Optics. Their ocean cities can be attacked by water walking units and most ships and are automatically razed. They can settle on land and their land cities act completely normal, but they get -1 and from land tiles.

There should be a number of ocean-based resources that would only be visible to Aifons and SCs (and Lanun in case of pearls). I suggest that ocean and coast tiles yield should be changed for them (ocean 1 1 , sea (new) 2 , coast 2 1 all + 1 from sailing, coral unique feature gives -1 + 1 with no effect on yield for land dwellers) with a bunch of special improvements (like kelp farm) and special worker unit.

Ocean cities do not gain culture at all; instead Aifons have a special building that gives a one-time boost of 10 so they can work the second ring.
Most units would be unique and they would all start with water walking and a promotion that would give double movement in ocean/sea, -% strength on land and would make it impossible to enter desert.

They would not be able to adopt any religion, and they would not spread to they lands. Aifons would have a ritual Awake Danalin, which would give them some bonuses and allow OO leaders to choose their alignment giving new units based on their choice (it would also affect heroes somehow).

Oh, and how about a submarine hero available for everyone (or rather the first civ to complete it to be exact)?

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Now this sounds a lot more like what I sugjested. And I full hartedly support it.
The concept of evil fish men is so much better than the concept of coast loving viking-pirates.

I think the worker techs now can just add water-based improvements for the water resources ... therefore instead of adding in new techs (other than the neccessary one unique tech to give their special traits) ... and the functionality ends up overlapping, allowing for similar start strategies.

Also, I like the Idea of finding ways to make the Sidar more invisible, and the Esus more sneaky, before making hidden underwater ppl with floating or underwater cities

Ok.

I too am new to the forums, and I'd just like to say that I love FFH and FF.

I was having an idea that I'd like to share with people here. First I'd just like to confirm that during the age of ice, were most of the oceans frozen?

If so, then my idea is to have a civ similar to doviello or illian, where the civ was big during the age of ice, but fell on hard times during the big melt. However, rather than having a land dwelling people, this tribe/group/nation lived primarily on the frozen seas and fished for food, much like the inuit people in real-world northern Canada. Unlike the inuit, these people carved massive cities from the ice and built it into major fortresses.

While the ice was melting, these people had to adapt fast. Their response: perform a major ritual to keep a part of the sea permanently frozen. This resulted in giving up a significant part of their humanity and binding the entire nation to the water in a way that they cannot leave either without significant penalties (not being able to enter dessert at all seems very restrictive). As the rest of the seas melted around them, they were able to keep a small glacier cold enough to remain frozen. Unfortunately they could not allow themselves to be swept into the warm southern waters and so attached the iceberg to the sea floor.

In this way, you can have an entirely seagoing race that can still be attacked and you don't have to move cities around. I figure that once they started to adapt to the changing climate, they were able to expand their main city, but can't support a huge number of cities without access to more ice mana. I also think that since they are sea-based civ, they won't reasonably be able to gain metal weapons as was mentioned previously in this thread. a one-time coral based weapon upgrade might be plausible.

I don't know how feasible this is, but you could make the number of cities available to them equal to the amount of ice and water mana that they have, with the 'settler' unit being some kind of iceberg that's similar to a land based settler: controllable, easily lost, and player chooses where to build.

What do you guys think?

It would be interesting. I guess that another ice/water civ might be pretty cool if they were seperate from the Illians and the Lanun enough.