Improvement Balancing

Vokarya said:

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Regarding Silk Road: I'm not happy with this one either. I would like to go even further, and move it up on the tech tree to Aristocracy + Calendar. Aristocracy is only because I think the tech could use a little more help, and Calendar to justify getting rid of Silk Farm as a separate improvement; as I see it, the only benefit to having Silk Farm as an improvement is to allow building Silk Road without having to wait for Calendar. I don't really like single-purpose improvements and would be happy if we could fold Silk Farm back into Plantation. I do remember when we consolidated the Orchard improvements it broke saved games, so I would be a little reluctant to do so, but I think it would be worth it in the long run.

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That makes sense for sure. I approve it

An other thing I was thinking of is the issue of fruit resources. I find it a bit confusing that Apple is available with orchard but Banana needs plantation. Why is the difference?
I think it would make to make an Orchard --> Plantation line. Orchard would only enable Apple, Lemon, Banana and Olives, while Plantation would give the real and bonus on the tile.

I just noticed that when you get the Windfarm improvement, building it will say "Upgrades into Windtrap in 0 Turns". The Windtrap isn't available to build until a bit into the Transhuman Era.

The Windfarm doesn't actually get to see any use, since if it gets worked by a city it upgrades to the next stage up when it really shouldn't be.

Rezca said:

I just noticed that when you get the Windfarm improvement, building it will say "Upgrades into Windtrap in 0 Turns". The Windtrap isn't available to build until a bit into the Transhuman Era.

The Windfarm doesn't actually get to see any use, since if it gets worked by a city it upgrades to the next stage up when it really shouldn't be.

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Yeah I noticed this too.

Do we really think we even need a separate post-modern wind farm upgrade (wind trap)? Couldn't the wind farm just get an extra commerce (or whatever the difference is) at the tech' which normally allows wind traps? I don't know, it just seems a little unnecessary to me.

aggri1 said:

Yeah I noticed this too.

Do we really think we even need a separate post-modern wind farm upgrade (wind trap)? Couldn't the wind farm just get an extra commerce (or whatever the difference is) at the tech' which normally allows wind traps? I don't know, it just seems a little unnecessary to me.

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I figure the Wind Trap is supposed to represent a more 'futuristic' version of the same thing. It certainly looks the part, in my opinion

So to the question, do we need it? Probably not. Aesthetically, I think it fits just fine.

Rezca said:

I just noticed that when you get the Windfarm improvement, building it will say "Upgrades into Windtrap in 0 Turns". The Windtrap isn't available to build until a bit into the Transhuman Era.

The Windfarm doesn't actually get to see any use, since if it gets worked by a city it upgrades to the next stage up when it really shouldn't be.

Click to expand...

You are correct. There is something wrong with the entire chain. Windmill should be upgrading to Windfarm at Ecology, and I've figured out why it isn't upgrading at all but not how to put off its upgrade until Ecology. Windfarm isn't supposed to upgrade to Windtrap until Ecological Engineering. I'll have to work on this.

EDIT: Got it fixed. When I do a build, Windmills and Windfarms will upgrade properly.

Vokarya, will you be doing a build anytime soon with these changes included?

philipschall said:

Vokarya, will you be doing a build anytime soon with these changes included?

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Pretty soon. I'm going to fix both the Windmill upgrade chain and the Jungle Camp upgrade time. I'm leaving Silk Farm alone for now. I think my next build is going to focus on new icons, introducing the Durasteel resource, and maybe some replacement unit art. I found a Special Infantry replacement and I think there are also possible replacements for the Colonist and Pioneer. I will look more into this.

Sogroon said:

That makes sense for sure. I approve it

An other thing I was thinking of is the issue of fruit resources. I find it a bit confusing that Apple is available with orchard but Banana needs plantation. Why is the difference?
I think it would make to make an Orchard --> Plantation line. Orchard would only enable Apple, Lemon, Banana and Olives, while Plantation would give the real and bonus on the tile.

Click to expand...

I think this is a good idea.
I would also give the plantation another +1 with an industrial agricultural tech (e.g. Machine tools or something like that)

Does anyone really like or use the Safari improvement? I would seriously like to remove it. Conceptually, I don't see much of a difference between the Safari and a Camp or Forest Preserve. Mechanically, the Safari is very narrow since it can only be built on an Ivory tile, and is almost completely inferior to the Camp. The Safari produces +4 commerce compared to a Camp's +3 (+1 base, +1 from Matchlock, +1 from Repeating Weapons), but the Camp also provides +1 production and +1 food with an additional +2 food at Artificial Evolution. To be balanced, a Safari would have to be at least +7 commerce, +11 after Art Ev (1 food/production = 2 commerce). Overall, I think we can just drop the Safari, change any references to Camps, and then fiddle with Camp to balance it relative to other bonus improvements.

I didn't even know such an improvement existed!

I don't think I've ever built a Safari, and I concur it can be merged into the Camp.

I don't recall ever encountering a Safari before.

I've built one exactly once.

It could possibly be an upgrade of the Camp improvement, but for the sake of keeping things tidy and simple, I'd imagine it'd be easier to just scrap the Safari entirely. Don't think it'd be missed ;P

Never built one.

+1

I think Safari would make a good building rather than an improvement. Something like Zoo or the Amusement Park, available only if Ivory/Deer is in city vicinity.

Okay, time for another long post. This is on balancing the upgrade times and costs of improvements. It was pointed out that Shaft Mine takes no time to upgrade to Modern Mine. This is a problem. Some other upgrades either don't have costs or have costs that are highly out of line with other upgrades at the same time. I have done some calculations towards balancing this.

I went and pulled out the upgrade times and costs for all improvements that can upgrade.
Treefarm is marked with an asterisk because Forest Preserve currently upgrades directly to Hybrid Forest. This is a mistake and will be fixed.

Overall, I am assuming that the Cottage line of upgrade times is balanced. It should take more time to upgrade from a stage-2 improvement to a stage-3 than from a stage-1 to a stage-2 because the number of citizens it takes to work a tile doesn't change. You get more improvement per citizen at the end.

Also, I thought about how to balance the costs to upgrade improvements. What I settled on was this: the cost to upgrade an improvement should balance out with the bonus yields for upgrading the improvement right away. The total yield for an improvement is calculated as food + hammers + 1/2 commerce (remember, I count 2 commerce = 1 food) + 1/2 health change. Production costs 3 gold/hammer to rush. The base upgrade time is modified by game speed; it's 1.6 on Normal speed (Cottage to Hamlet has a base time of 10 and takes 16 turns on Normal speed). Finally, I put in an equalizing factor of 0.5 because you don't get all the bonus yield at once. If you waited the full upgrade time, you would have an equalizing factor of 0. I think 0.5 is fair.

The trickiest part is that I also multiplied the gold cost by 2 for each previous upgrade. I think this covers the increased efficiency per citizen part of the upgrades.

Cost to upgrade an improvement: yield change * 3 [3 gold/point of yield] * base time to upgrade * 1.6 [time to upgrade on Normal] * 0.5 [equalizing factor] * (2^number of previous upgrades) covers increased efficiency per citizen

So here is my corrected table of upgrades.

Does this look good? I think some of the end game numbers might be too high, but there is usually a lot of gold being thrown around at that time.

Seems reasonable to me, should try out a game or two to see how it works to say for sure.

I was thinking about why not letting Fishing Boats and Whaling Boats upgrade to Submerged Towns? It seems natural that the citizens living in a ST will go out for collecting the seafood of their tile.
BTW: Do we need a separate unit for constructing ST?

Sogroon said:

I was thinking about why not letting Fishing Boats and Whaling Boats upgrade to Submerged Towns? It seems natural that the citizens living in a ST will go out for collecting the seafood of their tile.
BTW: Do we need a separate unit for constructing ST?

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We probably don't need a separate unit. The problem I have with ST is that there really is no alternative to it. Once you get the right combination of techs, you flood the oceans with ST's and get the same bonus from every non-bonus water tile. This might actually be better implemented as a building, not an improvement (just get the flat bonus from every water tile).

I settled on some initial stats for the Dome Farm improvement. The purpose for this is to clean up Vertical Farming; add a new improvement to replace the current improvement bonuses and consolidate the Farmscraper buildings into one, while still leaving Vertical Farming at the two-trick minimum for viability (Dome Farm and Farmscraper).

So the stats are:

• +5 food, increasing to +6 at Artificial Evolution.
• +2 commerce.
• Carries irrigation, but does not require it or benefit from it. It still provides more food than an irrigated Farm at the same tech place.

Overall, this is +1 yield more than a Farm. I didn't set it as high as I initially was planning to, but it is still a bonus over the current Farm.

Since Farm is the baseline for valuing improvements, increasing its yield means I should also increase the yields of all other improvements as well so they stay balanced against each other.

• Modern Mine: +1 (additional) production with Nanomining.
• Industrial Complex: +1 production with Planetary Economics.
• Town: +2 commerce with Androids.
• Windtrap: +1 production with Weather Control.
• Watermill: +1 production with Wireless Electricity.
• Groundwater Well: +1 commerce with Environmental Economics, Weather Control.
• Geothermal Factory: +1 production with Planetary Economics.
• Hybrid Forest: This is above the curve before bonuses, so it gets only a small bonus. Flat +1 commerce.

I also want Orchard and Plantation to upgrade to Dome Farm as well, but I would like to look first at upgrading Plantation so that it balances against a bonus-boosted Farm. Farm has a lot of bonuses and Plantation doesn't come close to matching it right now.