Deity sub 200 turn science victory attemtp

That was a really great read, extremely interesting, I learned a lot ! Thanks for this !

MuaddibFC said:

That was a really great read, extremely interesting, I learned a lot ! Thanks for this !

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Thanks for stopping by and welcome to CFC! Glad to hear you find this thread useful.

Tried 3 times, was beaten to GL between turns 29-31 each and every one of the attempts.
I'll try the same settings different map on immortal, where it usually doesn't go before turn 40, just to make a point and will post my findings.

Finally I managed to carry out the experiment.
Decided to go for the same map and with help of Ingame Editor (great mod, btw, that allows to learn a lot about AI's 'logic' and development) deprived both Egypt and Arabia of building GL before me.


I'm not gonna describe everything in details LP-style, I was interested in the long-term effect.

Beginning was the same: capital built scout and monument.
Research: Pottery-Writing-Calendar-Mining-Masonry-AH-Sailing. BW and IW came in a little later. Then teched towards Theology.

I reproduced warrior's steps, so all ruins gave the same outcome. Archery, gold and culture. Fourth ruin I missed due to barbs, but that was a useless map anyways.

When Pottery and monument were done, capital started to work on granary. Synchronized it with finishing Writing and immediately started on GL (turn 21).
Took me a little longer to raise enough cash for worker purchasing, which didn't matter. He had nothing to do before Calendar.

SP-wise also the same: Tradition opener, Liberty Opener, free settler, that was sent to the exact same spot as before. Couldn't rush buy a worker there since I needed the money from cottons to rush buy a library and start building NC in the capital after completion of GL. The only way to compensate for late library and slow early science.

Finished GL on turn 40 (bulbed Philosophy) followed by NC on turn 54 (I think ) and two settlers. Between turns 60 and 70 they settled two remaining pre-legalism cities and started to work on monuments and libraries. Had to rush-buy a temple in horse city (Lampang) - there was no chance it'd be able to hardbuild monument, library and temple in time.

Signed 6 RA's between turns 81 and 88. Could start one turn earlier and not miss turns in between, not that it mattered. The same amount of RA's were signed as in original game.

Discovered Theology (and Education accordingly) a little earlier indeed and finished HS earlier as well. Thus PT was built on turn 89 followed by ND on turn 90.



Now compare to non-GL start:


Legalism will kick in on turn 104, had to assign many artists (and stall the growth even more) to make it 100. Due to late temples. Last one was finished on turn 99.


That's also the turn when I discovered astronomy (vs. t102 in the original game with the difference I cleaned Math and Currency by that time).

How things looked at turn 95 in the original game:


I picked legalism on turn 100 (vs. 95).

Next policy is in 13 turns, which means two turns later than I need. Can't release the artists. More tweaking are done and growth/production almost non-existent. Filling wats is barely and option.



Not going to double post the original images, just want to mention, all four wats were filled and cities generated 97 beakers per turn in total at turn 95.

Compare two tech trees. Current game, turn 100:


Original game, turn 95:


Picked Rationalism on turn 111, at the end of which first RA is about to resolve (vs. t109):


Another comparison. T111 of the current game:

T108 of the original game:


And another one. Tech trees one turn before RA resolution. Turn 111 of the current game:


Turn 110 of the original game:


Note, that 5th city was found on turn 102 before, now the settler isn't even out yet.

Skipping all details of RA resolutions, at the end of the first wave we have:

Took an overview screenshot 1 turn later, actually.

And previously we had Acoustics cleared and 6 turns left to Navigation. Not a huge difference (although previously last RA kicked in a bit earlier, on t116, but that's my fault, I could have signed all RA's on consecutive turns starting on 80, was lazy to MM). What is more important, is how two empires looked like by this time:

The original one:

8/6/6/5/2 cities that generate 104 beakers per turn, completed road network, one more worker, lumber mills, more infrastructure buildings, better economy, despite the fact I've signed the same number of RA's (at least, maybe even more), etc.


Now everybody can conclude for themselves. My conclusion: picking Philosophy is not worth it!

I wasn't lucky with Sydney the way it was before, and that hurt the growth, I won't deny. The only major thing that was against me in this game. But you can't put all the blame on it. Late settling and delayed growth to manipulate artists is what hurt the most.
One may argue, that picking higher valued tech like Theology would be stronger. Sure, it's even doable at immortal. However, getting early Theology is one thing, capitalizing on getting it early - is a completely different one. You can't start working on HS immediately, b/c first you have to finish NC. And what about settlers? Delaying them even further?
My opinion, on riverside start with Trapping luxuries and good production, taking Civil Service is not a bad option (again, on immortal and if you can get it by turn 40). Otherwise - just forget it. In the best case scenario it'd provide the same result as fast expansion. 9/10 cases it'd be worse.

That's a pretty persuasive comparison and I must admit I was somewhat surprised by the result, though looking at what you've done here it shouldn't be. The opportunity cost is quite evident.

Veneke said:

That's a pretty persuasive comparison and I must admit I was somewhat surprised by the result, though looking at what you've done here it shouldn't be. The opportunity cost is quite evident.

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I was not really surprised. Growth during first turns is too crucial. I wanted to compare to Theology/CS beeline as well, but there is no much point now.