SGOTM 13 - Gypsy Kings

Is there merit in WB-WB-settler-WB-worker?
Maybe...that is essentially what I have been testing.

WB1>WB2>WB3(interrupted at size 4)>settler(2 pop whip)>WB3 completed>Granary(interrupted at size 4)>worker(2 pop whipped)>Lighthouse(1 turn build with overflow)>Granary(interrupted again at size 4)>worker(2 pop whipped)>Granary finished ....
 
How fast do we really need the Oracle?
AI built Oracle at T 107 in one of my latests tests.

Did you mean 10 turns into a warrior or worker? Because the tests show that the worker isn't worth it.
Opps, forgot worker halts growth, so it's more waste blowing off the worker.

I am still playing with the interrupted worker start, just to see how I can max it. Still might not better the WB start, but at least we will know.

Working on BW>Pottery approaches, as I think we want the early granaries AND the Oracle if we can get it.

I think our TOP priority should be to get city #2 founded ASAP while building 3WB's. The option comes when it is time to whip the settler. Do we wait for MAX overflow to finish WB#3 in 1 turn or whip at the EARLIEST WHIP? There is a difference of 4 turns.

I just ran through it again.

I THINK I like waiting to whip for MAX overflow which in this case is 40H, for a couple reasons....
1) The overflow allows immediate completion of WB#3, this times very well with the settling of C2, as all 3 nets are available when C2 is founded.
2) The other thing I like goes back to a decision I made on T40...Pottery or Sailing after BW. If we go Pottery, the 1st build in C2 can be Granary and Cap can build Granary after WB#3 completes so it can grow back to size 4.

So at T54, we have 2 cities and 3 nets all being worked!

If we whip ASAP, we get city 2 planted 4 turns sooner, but the 3rd net is not available until T57. With this option, it does grow sooner obviously because it is planted sooner...so we are working another tile sooner, even though it is an unimproved tile.
I think early pottery solves our "do we sacrifice infrastructure for oracle" question ... if we can still get Oracle.

Can you post the whip settler decision save so we can have a look?

dV
 
My best effort looks like T 103 Oracle (a nice 3 pop whip at the end) in Wrist, granaries in Elba and Wrist, Thumb just founded with one clam netted, Thumb mine in progess, lighthouse coming fast in Elba, one turn from writing. Have a village where the grass forest on Elba was (choped that into settler, chopped PH forest into Oracle)

Pop 3 each in Elba and Wrist, growing in 1 and 3 turns respectively. Gold or science output is 25, expenses are -4.

Tech path was fishing, mining, BW, Pottery, myst, med, priest, sail. Idea was early granaries to speed regrowth to whip settler and galley for Thumb, as well as to grow Wrist to pop 6.

It occurs to me that since I didn't get the Thumb mine up for wrist to work, perhaps I can put oracle in Elba just as fast building the west mine (not built yet in this save). Hmm, that lets me chop the ph forest into the settler, save the grass forest for the oracle (or even both forests).

Which brings the question, do we care if Oracle is in Elba or Wrist?

I will give the Elba Oracle a try. With both granaries up, this T 103 Oracle puts us in good shape to move forward, with good whip recovery. It probably doesn't beat the 3 WB, but its a benchmark to make sure we meet or exceed.

dV

edit: be useful if we all post our current "best status at oracle build" save, labelled that way, so we can see which route to oracle gives us the best combination of fast time and strong productivity for moving forward. So far, this T103 save is mine.

dV
 

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  • dV early worker Oracle T 103 TEST GK SG13 BC-1275.CivBeyondSwordSave
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I think our TOP priority should be to get city #2 founded ASAP while building 3WB's. The option comes when it is time to whip the settler. Do we wait for MAX overflow to finish WB#3 in 1 turn or whip at the EARLIEST WHIP? There is a difference of 4 turns.

I just ran through it again.

I THINK I like waiting to whip for MAX overflow which in this case is 40H, for a couple reasons....
1) The overflow allows immediate completion of WB#3, this times very well with the settling of C2, as all 3 nets are available when C2 is founded.
2) The other thing I like goes back to a decision I made on T40...Pottery or Sailing after BW. If we go Pottery, the 1st build in C2 can be Granary and Cap can build Granary after WB#3 completes so it can grow back to size 4.

Yeah, I've changed my mind - you suggested Pottery earlier, and I made some points in favour of Sailing. However, the Granaries are so much better than anything else we can build that they have to be top priority items. Slower acquisition of a building that doubles our food is probably better than a fast building that is +1-3:food:.

So at T54, we have 2 cities and 3 nets all being worked!

If we whip ASAP, we get city 2 planted 4 turns sooner, but the 3rd net is not available until T57. With this option, it does grow sooner obviously because it is planted sooner...so we are working another tile sooner, even though it is an unimproved tile.

Wow, your MM must be better than mine. My lazy approach was growing to 4 in sync with the third WB, and that whips out to settler on T55. I could rearrange life to get to a position where I had something similar to your settle T50-or-T54 decision, but wasn't able to get the combination of

  • work two nets after whipping
  • settle T50,
  • having finished pottery, and
  • with enough :hammers: to get a WB at T57 (so net at T58)
with any of various approaches I tried. I could do it by working a net and the PFH straight after whipping, though. That's probably fine - it swaps two pre-settlement turns working nets for two post-settlement turns working nets.

Anyway, I compared my version of both approaches at T60, when they'd both finished Mysticism and had done a full turn on Poly.

Early whip (T47)
Elba size 3, 14:food: in box, 13:hammers: on granary
Wrist size 1, 24:food: in box, 6:hammers: on granary
Empire had 37:science: and 12:gold:

Late whip (T51)
Elba size 2, 24:food: in box, 13:hammers: on granary
Wrist size 2, 8:food: in box, 10:hammers: on granary
Empire had 46:science: and 6:gold:

Early whip is 6:food: ahead, plus the fact that it has done a more-expensive growth, so more like 9:food: ahead. Early whip is 4:hammers: behind. In one turn the empires will generate 16:gold: on 0%, or 20:science: on 100%, so 1:gold: is worth 1.25:science:. So the two whip plans are about even economically.

So, I think early whip is best. Both the cities in that scenario will get the opportunity to whip (again) sooner, if they want to.
 
In a somewhat sloppy try, got Oracle in Elba at T 103 (3 pop whip), writing is done but no Thumb yet. Committing Elba to the Oracle prevents it from building (whipping really) the materials (settler, galley) that we need for expansion, which may make an Elba Oracle an inferior plan regadless of the start.

dV
 

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  • dV early worker sloppy Elba Oracle T 103 TEST GK SG13 BC-1275.CivBeyondSwordSave
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I have modified Grifftavian's latest test game. I took out all the huts (no need to advantage the AIs or us!). I did not like the eastern copper, so took it out. The game conditions state an AI has both GLH and a lighthouse, so I gave Ragnar the lighthouse he should have been due.

This was the starting save for my triple-wonder run.
Thanks! Not sure how the Huts got in there, since the Settings indicate No Trial Villages! :confused:
 
Best I could do with the Elba oracle from the interrupted worker start was T102 Oracle (3 pop whip in Elba). Still no Thumb, do have granaries in Elba and Wrist.

We may want to look carefully at how we can optimize commerce, since in this run I don't have writing yet, but had it at T103 in the other Elba Oracle run. Which turns are seafood vs mines can make that difference.

Time for me to have a go at the 3WB start ...

dV
 

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  • dV early worker Elba Oracle T 102 TEST GK SG13 BC-1275.CivBeyondSwordSave
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It occurs to me that since I didn't get the Thumb mine up for wrist to work, perhaps I can put oracle in Elba just as fast building the west mine (not built yet in this save). Hmm, that lets me chop the ph forest into the settler, save the grass forest for the oracle (or even both forests).

Yeah competitive Oracles haven't got time to get three mines organized. The real game might not have a city site for settling Thumb, too.

Which brings the question, do we care if Oracle is in Elba or Wrist?

We do, if we are trying for a GE to pop some other critical wonder. We want the Oracle in one city, and a very-fast forge in the other.

edit: be useful if we all post our current "best status at oracle build" save, labelled that way, so we can see which route to oracle gives us the best combination of fast time and strong productivity for moving forward. So far, this T103 save is mine.

Here's my best Oracle save. I improved my 3WB approach earlier along the lines R1's game suggested (i.e. 2WB-settler), whipping the settler ASAP (and then diverging from his path, by whipping again ASAP on my worker, before doing the rest/most of the third WB and granary). I got the Oracle in Wrist T94. That was so fast it was a scramble in Elba to get 45:hammers: and 6 population together, so I shrugged and chopped out a GF. My Great Engineer popped T149, to build Pyramids T150, and I whipped the Colossus T152. I have an extra city settled on this run, but I suspect I was cheating with map knowledge.
 
In a somewhat sloppy try, got Oracle in Elba at T 103 (3 pop whip), writing is done but no Thumb yet. Committing Elba to the Oracle prevents it from building (whipping really) the materials (settler, galley) that we need for expansion, which may make an Elba Oracle an inferior plan regadless of the start.

dV
In a very, very sloppy try, I got Oracle in Orleans (Elba) at T99. I still feel like a football player at a quantum physics seminar reading all of this but at least that was fun. :mischief:
If my attached saved scares you it probably should. I'm going to need all of the help I can get!
 

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  • TEST GK SG13 BC-1525Thorn.CivBeyondSwordSave
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In a very, very sloppy try, I got Oracle in Orleans (Elba) at T99. I still feel like a football player at a quantum physics seminar reading all of this but at least that was fun. :mischief:
If my attached saved scares you it probably should. I'm going to need all of the help I can get!
That isn't bad, but I think other attempts have better infrastructure for similar oracle times. Like mab's T 94 below.

Here's my best Oracle save. I improved my 3WB approach earlier along the lines R1's game suggested (i.e. 2WB-settler), whipping the settler ASAP (and then diverging from his path, by whipping again ASAP on my worker, before doing the rest/most of the third WB and granary). I got the Oracle in Wrist T94. That was so fast it was a scramble in Elba to get 45:hammers: and 6 population together, so I shrugged and chopped out a GF. My Great Engineer popped T149, to build Pyramids T150, and I whipped the Colossus T152. I have an extra city settled on this run, but I suspect I was cheating with map knowledge.
T 94 Oracle is better than anything I have achieved. I am doing something wrong with the WB start, as I can't get that Oracle faster than T 105. Maybe do Oracle only in Wrist, no prior building is the key? Or get it (the city founding) earlier, with worker support.

I note that when fishing comes in, it takes 3 turns of working the plains hill to complete the warrior ... has anyone tried that out? Or is there so little need for the warrior that it isn't worth the three turns?

Looks like we have a quick path to the Oracle. So if it is Oracle in Wrist, then what, Forge in Elba, GE to bulb mids, and then whip collossus where?

Do we get CoL and then go into ORel for building bonuses on the wonders?

dV
 
I tried a 3 WB start, with a 1 pop whip of WB3 (at size 3) and then using the overflow for a 1 turn WB4 build to get some exploring done, but results were unsatisfactory, as I didn't get city 2 founded until T74, which is way too slow. :( Guess I'll try it again with a different approach.
 
Looks like we have a quick path to the Oracle. So if it is Oracle in Wrist, then what, Forge in Elba, GE to bulb mids, and then whip collossus where?

Do we get CoL and then go into ORel for building bonuses on the wonders?

colossus would be in Elba (has to be since this is where we could build the forge quickly after the Oracle)

We can't get CoL before all 3 wonders (Oracle, pyramids and colossus) are built. So no switch to ORel. We may or may not have a religion spread by an AI, but I still doubt a ORel switch is possible.
 
Here's my best Oracle save. I improved my 3WB approach earlier along the lines R1's game suggested (i.e. 2WB-settler), whipping the settler ASAP (and then diverging from his path, by whipping again ASAP on my worker, before doing the rest/most of the third WB and granary). I got the Oracle in Wrist T94. That was so fast it was a scramble in Elba to get 45and 6 population together, so I shrugged and chopped out a GF. My Great Engineer popped T149, to build Pyramids T150, and I whipped the Colossus T152. I have an extra city settled on this run, but I suspect I was cheating with map knowledge.

this is very impressive, and I think we can use this as a rough blueprint for the game going forward. mabraham has made my dream into a reality :)

My only concern would be that we are behind on expansion and exploration with this plan. I think we might be able to delay the Colossus a bit and instead whip a settler or 2 into it instead of whipping it directly. That might provide the best balance between expansion and research boosting wonders.

The devil advocate seems to be missing, so I'll play that role briefly. What could we do by T151 if we didn't build any wonders? Massively expand and whip build cheap courthouses to deal with the maintenance of lots of cities? Find a small continent with a some killer city spots and begin a bureaucracy capital?

Do we need some more test comparisons? The direct build pyramids gets the pyramids slightly later than mabraham's most impressive GE-built route, but it does have a few more cities and those cities have a bit more time to develop.

A game without wonders but courthouse instead might be worth making... I guess I'll give that a go just to be thorough.
 
@Thorn....

Firstly, thanks for posting!
Second, please don't be intimidated, we were all total newbs once also. Go back and look at the SG2 Gipsy Kings thread, I was so late to post my 1st post in the thread because I couldn't even find where the threads were located! :(

Here is a brief rundown of how I test....I start my game and put a clean 8.5x11 piece of paper on my desk with a goal written on the top along with a test #. I split the page into columns as needed. Column 1 is always Capitol builds, column 2 is research, column 3 is tile use. After that I add columns as they become necessary depending on what happens in columns 1/2/3. If you build worker 1st, column 4 will be worker actions. In this game, since worker is later, Column 5 has been City#2 builds, Col6 is city2 tile use.

EVERY time something changes in the game, I note it on the page. City builds start and finish, research start and finish, tiles use every time I add or subtract population AND when I change tile use for specific Micro Management situations. Things that I deem critical get circled or starred or noted in some way so I can't miss them when I review.

I make saves at points where my path may diverge(and name them so I can remember what the hell I was doing and can find them easily), so I can go back and load the save and work on the alternate option(new note page started from that point of course).

This is critical for ME, you need to figure out what works for you. This SG is pretty much the only game I put this kind of effort into, real life time doesn't allow it anywhere else. If I am playing for fun, I just play!

OH, at the end of testing, my desk is littered, and looks like a bomb went off! :)

Here is the save at the diverge point of my whip decision.
 
I'm putting my money on copper being where we plan to settle city #2. That would benefit those who chose to settle on the Plains hill (which I think given current knowledge is worse than SIP).
 
My only concern would be that we are behind on expansion and exploration with this plan. I think we might be able to delay the Colossus a bit and instead whip a settler or 2 into it instead of whipping it directly. That might provide the best balance between expansion and research boosting wonders.

The devil advocate seems to be missing, so I'll play that role briefly. What could we do by T151 if we didn't build any wonders? Massively expand and whip build cheap courthouses to deal with the maintenance of lots of cities? Find a small continent with a some killer city spots and begin a bureaucracy capital?
Very good points bc! We could have a 6-7 city empire.

Hopefully now that aj has finished BOTM39 we will get his expertise back also!

EDIT: I am off for a few hours for commitment, but will return for a heavy afternoon of testing!
 
colossus would be in Elba (has to be since this is where we could build the forge quickly after the Oracle)

We can't get CoL before all 3 wonders (Oracle, pyramids and colossus) are built. So no switch to ORel. We may or may not have a religion spread by an AI, but I still doubt a ORel switch is possible.
So Elba gets forge, makes the GE, bulbs mids (is that with no invested hammers?), and then whips colossus?

Seems that Wrist could whip a forge and get started on colossus before Elba makes its mids, if we thought that was useful. Alternatively, Wrist could be the source of our expansion teams (ships, settlers, troops).

Of course, I see Wrist working the farm and one net so it has good food. Are others doing differently?

CoL can be researched immediately after oracle>MC (or we could take it from MC if we wanted), 46 turns to do it before we get any libraries up. So it seems we could get ORel, if we were first to Col and founded confu, in time to help a late COL whip. But is it worth it?

One advantage to getting the wonders is that we deny them to the AI ... is that worth slower expansion initially?

dV
 
I'm putting my money on copper being where we plan to settle city #2. That would benefit those who chose to settle on the Plains hill (which I think given current knowledge is worse than SIP).
We would see that before we settle Wrist ... would that change our minds?

Worse still, would that make us wish we had settled on the plains hill?

dV
 
Wow! 60+ posts since I last looked here on Friday. SIP is good with me BTW.

A couple of things I'd like to reiterate:
Sailing = Lighthouse. We are Organised. Lighthouse is half the price of a granary.
Code of Laws = Courthouses. We are Organised. Courthouse is half price. Surely CoL is more valuable than Currency, and possibly even more vaulable than MC as far as choosnig the Oracle tech? Though, MC->Forge->GE->Mids is still attractive I'll admit.

@R1 - go to .ini file and set fullscreen mode to 'no' or 'ask'. Then use a spreadsheet :) Works for me at least, on a reasonably average laptop.

I'm still seriously lacking in the test gaming department - but with BOTM39 out of the way I might be able to squeeze in a run or two. Likely just to try out what is deemed best so I know what's going on.

Edit: I'd also like to add, that IMO a 4th WB for exploring is non negotiable. Exploration is very important.
 
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