America, Denmark, India. Who has the worst UA?

Without commenting on America's scouting benefit, which has some benefits, I think people are definitely underestimating the discount to tile purchases. Perhaps many don't know how to manage tile acquisition or aren't bothering to do so.

Think about it this way: if you aren't managing your tiles, use America as your chance to figure it out. See how you can abuse it and get it to its fullest potential.

Without doing this, giving feedback on it amounts to a kneejerk reaction based upon how it fits into a playstyle that may not be suited for it.

When playing against a coastal Denmark, the AI can sometimes launch effective attacks or pillaging... so they are the worst one to play against.

America is generic, and India is peaceful when playing against.

Wodan said:

Without commenting on America's scouting benefit, which has some benefits, I think people are definitely underestimating the discount to tile purchases. Perhaps many don't know how to manage tile acquisition or aren't bothering to do so.

Think about it this way: if you aren't managing your tiles, use America as your chance to figure it out. See how you can abuse it and get it to its fullest potential.

Without doing this, giving feedback on it amounts to a kneejerk reaction based upon how it fits into a playstyle that may not be suited for it.

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So true. If you're not going tradition, you should be buying at some point at least 2 tiles per non-capital city if you are growing fast enough. Even in tradition, I usually buy at least one tile per non-capital city.


Scouting benefit is also great for war, and wide culture... It is even more useful now since every scrap of land may have a dig site... You're no longer just scouting for CS, wonders and general terrain impressions.

adwcta said:

Scouting benefit is also great for war, and wide culture... It is even more useful now since every scrap of land may have a dig site... You're no longer just scouting for CS, wonders and general terrain impressions.

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So get a couple scouts. America's supposed greatest asset is invalidated by something every other civ should be doing anyway.

Kizo said:

So get a couple scouts. America's supposed greatest asset is invalidated by something every other civ should be doing anyway.

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Over the course of the game, an extra scout not only delays everything by 5 turns, but also costs thousands of gold (including valuable early game gold) in upkeep. If America started with a free scout that requires no upkeep, it'd be a decent UA, no?

And war.

kaspergm said:

Arguably, the flaw of your argument is that you don't "save a ton of money" courtesy of the land purchase discount if you don't purchase any land - and it's my impression that most players very rarely use the ability to purchase land tiles. If this was coupled with the ability to purchase tiles in 4th and possibly even 5th ring, I could see much more of a benefit from it.

And about the logistics, once you've had a scout out uncovering the land, the benefit of that scouting bonus is going to fairly limited.

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Purchasing land is so important and I think its something new players should do more often. There are always good tiles in your 2nd and 3rd rings. Like salt, wheat, deer etc. Growing borders take dozens of turns and they sometimes grow in the undesirable direction. If you can get to the good resources early it can really snowball your city. You may think that you may want to save the money for rush buying stuff but getting to the resources early means you can sell them for more money early. I buy tiles all the time, not just with America. Yes you don't end up saving that much money as America in the long run, perhaps a few hundred. But its all about how early you can start snowballing. The 2nd ring resources cost only 25 for America and in the early game that could often mean getting them 10 turns earlier, and 10 turns of extra hammer or food could often mean an extra pop. Then again, don't compare with Shoshone because Shoshone is clearly OP. America is not as good but doesn't mean its as bad to be considered one of the worst.

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adwcta said:

Over the course of the game, an extra scout not only delays everything by 5 turns, but also costs thousands of gold (including valuable early game gold) in upkeep.

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The upkeep cost is negligible, especially when considering the benefits of having another civ's UA. Also, 5 turns is only if you build the extra scout that early; you mentioned looking for dig sites, which would suggest you could pop out a scout or two later in the game for 1-2 turns or insignificant gold.

Supposing I did want the extra scout that early, though, I would still find my situation vastly superior to a UA that, in this comparison, effectively reads "save 5 turns on one building in your capital." Sure, that's nice, but it's not worthy of being a UA. Same for +1 sight.

If America started with a free scout that requires no upkeep, it'd be a decent UA, no?

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That would be pretty terrible.

And war.

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I always keep at least one +2 sight scout in/around my army. Therefore, I am always America plus other actual bonuses.

Kizo said:

That would be pretty terrible.

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Actually it's one of my favorite parts of being Shoshone, and (with an acknowledgement to the weakness of anecdotal data) it's the reason I get a lot more ruins as them. I know they have other better strengths but the insta-scout is probably the funnest part.

But yes, I agree America's lauded wartime usefulness is essentially 'don't have to move a horse unit back and forth sometimes to see a thing.'

On the subject of, well, this subject, I suddenly realized France is the obvious third-worst place next to India and America. I just forgot how bad their revised UA is. "Maybe you will win culture victory a turn earlier but only if you were so culture-focused that you self-built all these wonders and works and therefor did not need extra tourism mid-game and derived no in-game benefit from your UA all game long"

But, remembering them made me realize all the UA's have already been rated and discussed in the UA elimination thread.

Denmark is the worst, India is second worse and America has the best out of all three but all of them are still bad civs.

For a war civ Denmark get wiped out way too often and its even worse because their ai is programmed to be hostile so they commit suicide, i saw them declare war on tall Netherlands that only had four cities and Denmark was still beaten by the Netherland's very small military.

India is second because they have a bad UA but their UU is better than Denmark's.

America is the best of the three because of early game expansion and late game conquest and when played by a good player it can do pretty well.

soldier2975 said:

For a war civ Denmark get wiped out way too often and its even worse because their ai is programmed to be hostile so they commit suicide, i saw them declare war on tall Netherlands that only had four cities and Denmark was still beaten by the Netherland's very small military.

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AI success is not a measure of an attribute's military value. But for what it's worth I once had a very unpleasant fight with AI Denmark when he invaded the hills next to my capital, even though I was at Plastics/flight and he was at Replaceable Parts. Bombarding upgraded ski infantry on hills is like trying to crack nuts with rubber bands.

Kizo said:

So get a couple scouts. America's supposed greatest asset is invalidated by something every other civ should be doing anyway.

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This is not really how the American UA works.

The American UA provides +1 sight on every land unit. Archers, artillery, melee, horses, you name it, can all see one extra tile. A Scout cannot provide the same benefit on its own because of 1 unit per tile rules. It cannot physically stand on the same tile as another unit. For America, the entire land army is functioning as a Scout standing on every tile. America's Scout's themselves start with even better visibility, should you need to deploy them that way.

In short, the American UA is not just for early exploration. What it actually does is allow you to make better combat decisions, and also strike enemies from further away with less set up, because you can actually see what you're up against. A Scout with 2 Move simply isn't sturdy enough to take these kind of liberties. Barring trees or hills in the way, America's units can see enemies coming toward them before they can get there because their Line of Sight is actually longer than most unit's movement. The side benefit is you can much more easily prevent the spawning of barbarian camps because +1 sight is roughly equivalent to a 40% increase in the number of visible tiles. And since it is per unit and active through the entire game, it is quite a nice UA indeed, even before the tile purchasing mechanic (which is IMO not amazing but still very much underrated).

GhostSalsa said:

Actually it's one of my favorite parts of being Shoshone

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It works for Shoshone because of the Pathfinder not just being a regular scout. Picking your own ruin bonus is what's great, not so much just having a scout.

isau said:

This is not really how the American UA works.

The American UA provides +1 sight on every land unit. Archers, artillery, melee, horses, you name it, can all see one extra tile. A Scout cannot provide the same benefit on its own because of 1 unit per tile rules. It cannot physically stand on the same tile as another unit.

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I know precisely how the American UA works, and my point remains. Barring terrain quirks, a scout with +2 sight standing behind the front line is exactly the same as a front line unit having +1 sight.

What it actually does is allow you to make better combat decisions, and also strike enemies from further away with less set up, because you can actually see what you're up against.

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I genuinely can't think of a time I have ever not been able to see an attack coming or observe the enemy's formation. Not one. Surely this is not an actual problem?

A Scout with 2 Move simply isn't sturdy enough to take these kind of liberties.

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If you're running them into the enemy, sure. We probably play differently. I set traps and counter, meaning +2 sight scouts are safe to see what's coming and even peek around.

The overall point that I'm more interested in is that +1 sight is simply dull. It offers no gameplay variety or meaningful assistance towards a victory condition. It's just a stat boost that can be obtained by any civ with a scout. The same goes for tile purchasing; anyone can build Angkor Wat. (Most don't, though, which should give some indication how useful that UA perk is.) One UU is a mishmash of other civs' UU promotions, and the other UU comes too late to matter. Most civs have one slightly unoriginal unique trait that amounts to little more than a free promotion or yield modifier, but America has that for every unique slot, including UA. Nothing about America is actually "unique," and the result is that playing as America leaves no impression.

Kizo said:

I know precisely how the American UA works, and my point remains. Barring terrain quirks, a scout with +2 sight standing behind the front line is exactly the same as a front line unit having +1 sight.

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This is not the same as "a front line unit." It is every unit, and the effects is radial. And the effect does not start behind the front line, it radiates in a circle from where any unit, even a tank, a meatshield, an artillery, etc is.

Maybe you personally never need to see enemy units to play. I suppose you don't play much multiplayer. But even against the AI, visibility from every unit is not "the same" as visibility from one +2 scout. Draw it on a hex grid and try to make the pieces fit together that way so that they are "the same." Look at it especially on a map with obstacles like forests and jungles. It doesn't work, because they do not provide the same visibility. To get even close you'd need multiple scouts with +2 visibility all spaced out for that purpose and somehow not picked off by enemy fire.

America UA is very very powerful for startegic land purchase.

By placing cities in key locations and purchasing land, its very possible to block of very large amount of land which you can then settle, allowing you to get much more land then the tiles you purchase.

But this seams to be a pretty unknown strategy, could write much more about it, but its pretty easy to use

GhostSalsa said:

But, remembering them made me realize all the UA's have already been rated and discussed in the UA elimination thread.

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Thanks for that. Final tally is on the next to last page, post #618, best to worst (out of 43):

33. Viking Fury
37. Population Growth
42. Manifest Destiny

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But I think this just goes to demonstrate how unreliable is this sort of voting ranking! As the War Academy guide reads, The American Unique Ability is often debated and derided for its relative value. IMHO it is an above average civ, including the UA.

Worst UA is Byzantine one.
America, Denmark and India UA are more flexible than Indonesia or Shongai UA.

this thread is good for a poll!, but i would definately have to say india in this case!

Kizo said:

I know precisely how the American UA works, and my point remains. Barring terrain quirks, a scout with +2 sight standing behind the front line is exactly the same as a front line unit having +1 sight.

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Not quite. A line of scouts with +2 sight standing behind the front line is exactly the same as a front line each having +1 sight.

beetle said:

But I think this just goes to demonstrate how unreliable is this sort of voting ranking! As the War Academy guide reads, The American Unique Ability is often debated and derided for its relative value. IMHO it is an above average civ, including the UA.

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Well, and what group of player is being considered changes the value of a civ. Greece is obviously better than Siam for the broad player base because Greece gets you tons of CS allies even if you play sub-optimally, whereas Siam is obviously better for the players who stick to optimal play, because on tall tradition Deity starts you have a lot of money and few wars and getting a ton of CS allies is trivially easy. America's tile discount will be a bit more useful to Deity players because there's a lot more AI money in early game, whereas on lower levels there's none (even with a discount 2 tile purchases per city is not doable when you have no income). I myself buy tiles a lot, like I said I enjoy that perk of America's UA.