G-Major LVIII

zenmaster said:

Thanks for the insights, Vadalaz and Chuck.

? for you -- If a late monument often does have to do with the AI building a settler, is it best to try to stick a unit there if possible as Chuck says to try to nab it quick and hope it builds another one, do you think?

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In my experience the AI prefers to create settlers during peace,...Which poses a slight dilemma for this Gauntlet, because if you offer peace you can't steal until your peace treaty is complete.

Take his first settler, then offer peace ASAP since you want him to make another settler. At this level he probably won't be strong enough to get another one out before the treaty expires,..Start scouting his city again when your able to DoW.

*I stress, ASAP....Because the build that he makes immediately after his settler is crucial,...It may be a Monument
But, if he doesn't and you make peace before that next build, then your odds are much better it is going to be a settler.

If he gets it out,...Oh well....Plan B,...Take his second city down quick, then peace...He will normally want to build another settler, and put it in the same location you just conquered. Another advantage, because now you know where he is going if he manages to build another settler.

The not worth opening Honor is only true when you need more than 6 -7 policies, in this gauntlets you literally just need 6, plus Honor 7, I have not done the math but it is probably worth it, you will definitely get the early policies earlier and need to do the math to see how many barbs you have to kill to get policy number 7 for "free". If it is likely that you will kill more barbs than that, then yes worth going for it, as I think the liberty closer is the crucial time for turn time, and not the conquest.

But I still have not tackled this Major and I want to do a couple more attempts on the minor. I have not been able to play much as I have been in Mobile World this week, awesome, and experienced some VR stuff, mostly Oculus based, that is working really well. Interesting stuff.

Bleidraner said:

The not worth opening Honor is only true when you need more than 6 -7 policies, in this gauntlets you literally just need 6, plus Honor 7, I have not done the math but it is probably worth it, you will definitely get the early policies earlier and need to do the math to see how many barbs you have to kill to get policy number 7 for "free". If it is likely that you will kill more barbs than that, then yes worth going for it, as I think the liberty closer is the crucial time for turn time, and not the conquest.

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You can do the math, But you really can't figure in the "Intangibles" that make it a advantage, or disadvantage because game play is so random that it could go either way.

Examples:
>Using scouts as Melee Units...??
-Would I need to build standard Melee units, and dedicate valuable production to form a army?
-How many more camps did I get because I was able to use my Scouts more efficiently?
-Did the speed of that Scouts promotion/Heal allow me to find steal workers, sustain a city attack, or find CSs faster?
>Did I beat my opponent, (or the CS) to the Barb Camp quest because of the speed in which I can dispense camps?
>Since I ripped though more camps,...which resulted in more Gold how much more culture did I get because I was able to purchase Cultural Allies quicker, and longer?
>Maybe,..I satisfied those quests right before a Golden Age, or the Luxes from those CSs got me to the Golden Age faster..??

You could do the same argument for Liberty?
If I had the worker from "Citizenship" earlier I would have had more production, and would have been able to build.....

You get the point,.....So many Intangibles, -That is why this game is so much fun!!

It is fun indeed. I have not played this yet, so this post is all theoretical.

I think the variables in this particular gauntlet are less, if you are going for culture bomb. Basically you win after closing liberty (well after walking your GM to the last city), as it looks as if war is faster than liberty (if you are Vadalaz). So doing the math on cost of the 7 policy (I don't know what it is in Marathon) would tell you at least whether Honor is within shouting distance. If it turns out that you have to kill I don't know, 60 barbarians to make up for the extra policy because it is 1000 culture, then you know that Honor is not the way to go. I am trying my 3rd try on the minor, will only try a 4th time if I don't find a shallow water connection, and I have a long plane ride tomorrow (13 hours!), so likely tomorrow I will do a test game on this and note the policy costs. Will post then. I have to say that opening honor maybe much more powerful with a great player like you that has a lot of experience with it than me.

I agree, Bleidraner, this map feels less random than most gauntlets. The only significant random factors (IMHO) are cultural CS Alliances and whether at least one AI goes Peity/no monument. Even 2 cultural CS are enough, but you need to get lucky and have them issue quests you can complete. Otherwise the financial burden of allying them will make it hard to finish Liberty in time.

The conquest part of this is almost trivial with Egypt's UU.

Cromagnus said:

I agree, Bleidraner, this map feels less random than most gauntlets. The only significant random factors (IMHO) are cultural CS Alliances and whether at least one AI goes Piety/no monument. Even 2 cultural CS are enough, but you need to get lucky and have them issue quests you can complete. Otherwise the financial burden of allying them will make it hard to finish Liberty in time.

The conquest part of this is almost trivial with Egypt's UU.

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I agree with both of you, but I think that the having one AI build no monument for a long, long time is really the only factor that matters to get sub-T200something win with the 300 tourism Point Musician. Have played a few more quick games to T40+ and have not had anyone (Piety-type civs) not build a monument after T40 yet. Even if a T40 monument builder gets no other culture from ruins/barbs/CSes/pantheons etc., that means you have to have the map cleared and Liberty completed AND a Great Musician do a tour in that civ by T126 to win with a 0 Tourism GM tour which is a pretty tall order.

Not sure if trying Honor-leaning expanders (Building Settlers and units in lieu of monument?) to mix in more with the usual Piety-leaning suspects in the AI lineup will help improve the odds.

Also, not sure of a way to help make sure the late potential monument builders don't build one for a long time. Maybe not just an early DOW but also relentless harassment? Chuck's plan to take out the AI's early unit might help if that's possible. In my T213 win, I just DOWed Denmark early, left them alone in the corner, and eventually found they built a monument superlate. It was my first try, so I bought units early on instead of Cultural CS alliances, not knowing sub-T200 was possible.

chuckh89 said:

Take his first settler, then offer peace ASAP since you want him to make another settler. At this level he probably won't be strong enough to get another one out before the treaty expires,..Start scouting his city again when your able to DoW.

*I stress, ASAP....Because the build that he makes immediately after his settler is crucial,...It may be a Monument
But, if he doesn't and you make peace before that next build, then your odds are much better it is going to be a settler.

If he gets it out,...Oh well....Plan B,...Take his second city down quick, then peace...He will normally want to build another settler, and put it in the same location you just conquered. Another advantage, because now you know where he is going if he manages to build another settler.

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Thanks a lot! I may give this a shot during my next try. The downside to this is that the warrior/scout that could be out finding ruins at that stage has to camp and chase the settler when it comes out. I have been building scout/monument but I think this approach would benefit from scout/scout/monument. Delays monument (Liberty finish) and thus archers but I think the potential ruins help make up for it, and you could bypass a later warrior and use a scout to take cities so net no loss. If it possibly delays an AI monument crucially, it is well worth it.

Well first try, Maria built a late monument but not late enough, had 300 by something like t120, pretty much the same turn I closed liberty. Juuuust 10 turns too early, so just went ahead and racked a t137 domination victory and submitted for VVV. I will try a couple of times more, otherwise I will go SS and win that way.

Chuck, forgot to note the policy costs, next game I promise.

Bleidraner said:

Well first try, Maria built a late monument but not late enough, had 300 by something like t120, pretty much the same turn I closed liberty. Juuuust 10 turns too early, so just went ahead and racked a t137 domination victory and submitted for VVV. I will try a couple of times more, otherwise I will go SS and win that way.

Chuck, forgot to note the policy costs, next game I promise.

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This is like a quantum gauntlet with different finish levels, all dependent on how quickly the slowest AI gets culture. If you can hit the jackpot, you can win with a 300pt GM under T150. If the civ is slowish but beats your tour to 300 culture, you can maybe win with a 4 tourism 360pt GM like I did in the low T200s. If you have to wait until 6-8 tourism 540-720 point GM you are looking at high T200s probably at best.

My T213 game looks OK to medal at the moment, but part of me wants to keep trying to get on the lowest quantum level with Vadalaz. Even if I don't beat his time, at least I'll get something for a VVV score. As it stands now, I'd get squat for the VVV being so far off the winner [emoji14]. It's just that you may have to play out 50 turns of this a lot to get lucky.

@Bleidraner - You may want to rethink Sacred Sites on this one. The faith requirements to get a religion or buy a faith building are insane on Marathon. You are better off going for a 6-8 tourism from Parthenon/Great Works GM tour as a backup plan.

zenmaster said:

@Bleidraner - You may want to rethink Sacred Sites on this one. The faith requirements to get a religion or buy a faith building are insane on Marathon. You are better off going for a 6-8 tourism from Parthenon/Great Works GM tour as a backup plan.

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Yes just found that out the hard way, thanks for the tip anyway. Well gonna be a good electron and see if I can join Vadalaz's quantum level, but I doubt it will happen without some sort of high energy event.

Bleidraner said:

Yes just found that out the hard way, thanks for the tip anyway. Well gonna be a good electron and see if I can join Vadalaz's quantum level, but I doubt it will happen without some sort of high energy event.

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Good luck! I don't have another try in me for a long while at least. These first 50 turns seem to go so much more slowly than those in the G-minor. Exploring a map you already know the terrain and general gist of, slowly exploring to maximize AI meetings and barb camp destruction, and checking the culture screen every other turn gets old fast. Plus your capital is building at a glacial pace. 40 turns later? Everyone racking 3+ culture per turn? Oops, time to do it again... I may be satisfied with the 2nd quantum level unless a bunch of you hit the ground state [emoji4] .

zenmaster said:

Good luck! I don't have another try in me for a long while at least. These first 50 turns seem to go so much more slowly than those in the G-minor. Exploring a map you already know the terrain and general gist of, slowly exploring to maximize AI meetings and barb camp destruction, and checking the culture screen every other turn gets old fast. Plus your capital is building at a glacial pace. 40 turns later? Everyone racking 3+ culture per turn? Oops, time to do it again... I may be satisfied with the 2nd quantum level unless a bunch of you hit the ground state [emoji4] .

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Yes, true that the minor is a lot more fun and I would go back to it that but Morcar just delivered a t70, awesome game, and I think it is unbeatable, so going back this. I have tried this first 50 turns before like 2-3 times, but have yet to finish a game. I am not very motivated. I feel like playing a long science game at Immortal or Deity, but I do not want to let a gauntlet pass without a submission

Bleidraner said:

Yes, true that the minor is a lot more fun and I would go back to it that but Morcar just delivered a t70, awesome game, and I think it is unbeatable, so going back this. I have tried this first 50 turns before like 2-3 times, but have yet to finish a game. I am not very motivated. I feel like playing a long science game at Immortal or Deity, but I do not want to let a gauntlet pass without a submission

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Indeed, a long science game is a very nice change of pace from these gauntlets, especially if you try something different from what you normally do - I just played the Assyria/Arborea/Chieftain game myself with a 6-city full Liberty opener, which was pretty fun.

I want someone to get a sub-130 in this G-Major, that'd be really stylish. I'll likely try a couple more times myself... depends on how addictive the new G-Minor will be though.

Well tried again, Shaka build the monument late, target was to bomb by 128. So I took stock once I saw the war was going to be over by 110, but in this case, I only had 2 culture CSs, calculated closing liberty by 120, but Shaka was in the woods upper right corner of the map, and I had started in the east, started building a road but it is 9turns per road tile in Marathon and with 3 workers I calculated I only could build 6 tiles of road. That reduces my GM trip from 18 moves to 15, just too far away. Lesson learned, do not disband the workers. I could have had another 2, but anyway still would not have been able to do it, so retired the game.

I need somebody to build the monument at t70, I think even t65 would do it, but I am just not getting it. If they build by t60 it is doable, but then you need 3 cultural CSs and the culture poor civ needs to be not too far away. Anyway, I will give it another go.

Unlucky. That upper right spawn really is annoying.

I think with a T60 monument it's doable with just 2 CS if you get lucky with quests/gold and ally early - you have til around t140 to win (59 turns of 1cpt + 80 turns of 3cpt), so a t125ish Liberty should be pretty safe

I'm with you, I stopped playing this round of gauntlets to play a different type of game. I might try the major again. As for the minor, I'm sure I can beat my previous time, but I'm not even going to try beating a t70, that smells like a mountain of rerolls.

I finished my game on turn 289. Unfortunately, the player whom I had Influential culture with did not have his original capital when I took over the other remaining opponent. So I won a rather late conquest victory.

Guys I have a really stupid question. I have DoW a thousand of times in Marathon, but I cannot for the life of me remember whether the peace treaty (not the money deal, the capability to DoW again), lasts 10 turns of if it gets multiplied by 3 to 30 turns. I think it is the former, but it is essential for me to know for sure as I have to make a decision in the next turn. If anybody is awake please let me know asap.

Bleidraner said:

Guys I have a really stupid question. I have DoW a thousand of times in Marathon, but I cannot for the life of me remember whether the peace treaty (not the money deal, the capability to DoW again), lasts 10 turns of if it gets multiplied by 3 to 30 turns. I think it is the former, but it is essential for me to know for sure as I have to make a decision in the next turn. If anybody is awake please let me know asap.

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It's 30, sorry to notice this too late.

Cromagnus said:

It's 30, sorry to notice this too late.

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Thank you Cro, I played it safe and decided to not Peace Deal, thank God! Would have cost me the game.