Should the Pueblo be in Civ V?

What the hell is with the "deserve" crap? Being represented in a video game is not an award. It's not compensation. It's not recognition. It's not a pat on the back or an "attaboy".

Putting a culture in Civ is not doing them a favor. It's a neutral act at best. If they don't want it, don't impose it upon them.

pozz said:

I'm in agreement with this sentiment. I think Pueblo deserves to be in the game (so does a handful or two more cultures) but if they are against depicting of their dead I think Firaxis should leave them out. One could of course make up a leader for them, but I feel like that would be an insult to the culture.

We will never see all civilizations people would like in the game, so skipping Pueblo because of cultural/religious ideals is a good decision.

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I agree ... it shows real cultural and spiritual respect by Firaxis which is seems unusual of a video game company. The fact that they actually went to the tribal council beforehand is commendable.

I wonder if they disapproved of the depiction of the leader for commercial purposes in particular? Popey was not just a political but a spiritual leader. There are statues of him in the US government, which indicates that the Pueblo aren't categorically offended by any depiction of him or their language, but they might be a little disturbed by someone selling a for-profit game with their cultural heritage.

Is there a particular story or article where the Pueblo peoples gave their reasoning?

Lack of education might be a better bet

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Seems quite plausible ...

Eagle pursuit - I think its badly worded ... but considering the Puebloan peoples made the first towns in the Americas, they did seem to me like an obvious choice for a civilization. However, Firaxis was also right to recognize that the tribe's desire not to be in the game overrode all else.

Eagle Pursuit said:

What the hell is with the "deserve" crap? Being represented in a video game is not an award. It's not compensation. It's not recognition. It's not a pat on the back or an "attaboy".

Putting a culture in Civ is not doing them a favor. It's a neutral act at best. If they don't want it, don't impose it upon them.

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The context of them "deserving" to be in civ isn't supposed to be rewarding to them and make them feel better. Whether or not their culture is in a game is an irrelevant part of everyday life for everyone who doesnt play civ. They say "deserving" in terms of its achievements meriting them inclusion over other cultures for inclusion. When someone says deserve, what they mean is, "i believe this civilization has comparatively achieved more for its time than other civilizations world wide and as such i would like to see it represented in a game that celebrates such achievement". But that doesn't mean they are patting people on that back or awarding people, it's a declaration of tastes and desires for the game, and i think you know that mr. semantics .

Whether or not it is imposing on them is another question, and clearly in this case it was for the Pueblo. But that's still irrelevant to the context of the statement that provoked you.

There are so many American Indian groups to choose from who lived in the mountains and who were just as powerful

I don't understand the need for people to constantly bring up Pueblo when it's clear they are out of the running

smh

True_Candyman said:

The context of them "deserving" to be in civ isn't supposed to be rewarding to them and make them feel better. Whether or not their culture is in a game is an irrelevant part of everyday life for everyone who doesnt play civ. They say "deserving" in terms of its achievements meriting them inclusion over other cultures for inclusion. When someone says deserve, what they mean is, "i believe this civilization has comparatively achieved more for its time than other civilizations world wide and as such i would like to see it represented in a game that celebrates such achievement". But that doesn't mean they are patting people on that back or awarding people, it's a declaration of tastes and desires for the game, and i think you know that mr. semantics .

Whether or not it is imposing on them is another question, and clearly in this case it was for the Pueblo. But that's still irrelevant to the context of the statement that provoked you.

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Yeah I think this is what the OP meant

seancolorado said:

There are so many American Indian groups to choose from who lived in the mountains and who were just as powerful

I don't understand the need for people to constantly bring up Pueblo when it's clear they are out of the running

smh

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The pueblo are cool because they are a Native American civilization which (1) did not lose most of their homeland due to the US reservation system and (2) the civs included have previously been plains indian horse riding nomads (the Sioux in particular) while the Pueblos are sedentary cultures with unique architecture, meaning that their inclusion would be something new. The Shoshone are a great tribe with an awesome history of course so they were a great choice anyway but a Native American civilization from the American West which weren't prarie dwelling nomads would be interesting as a change.

Something from the American Northwest would have been cool too ... long houses, brilliantly painted canoes, delicious salmon and totem poles!

seancolorado said:

There are so many American Indian groups to choose from who lived in the mountains and who were just as powerful

I don't understand the need for people to constantly bring up Pueblo when it's clear they are out of the running

smh

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Just out of interest, what other American Indian groups who lived in the mountains were as powerful as the Pueblo?

Frankly I don't think you can name a native civ in the US more powerful than the Pueblo ever were including their ancestral "Anasazi Empire" period

True_Candyman said:

Just out of interest, what other American Indian groups who lived in the mountains were as powerful as the Pueblo?

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Gucumatz said:

Frankly I don't think you can name a native civ in the US more powerful than the Pueblo ever were including their ancestral "Anasazi Empire" period

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Perhaps the Sioux, which combined demographic weight with military power, or the Navajo which were incidentally the main opponents of the Pueblo alongside the Apache. The Pueblo though had a cultural, religious, linguistic and spiritual power and continuity which probably hasnt been equalled and while there seems to be little history of their ancient wars they managed to keep their pueblos independent from their powerful neighbors for 1,000 years so I think people would be hard pressed to find a group with that kind of long term self preservation.

It's amazing to see how the buildings of the Anasazi and the modern Pueblo include the same kinds of religious structures over a thousand years later

Gucumatz said:

Frankly I don't think you can name a native civ in the US more powerful than the Pueblo ever were including their ancestral "Anasazi Empire" period

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jabbawackybacky said:

Perhaps the Sioux, which combined demographic weight with military power, or the Navajo which were incidentally the main opponents of the Pueblo alongside the Apache. The Pueblo though had a cultural, religious, linguistic and spiritual power and continuity which probably hasnt been equalled and while there seems to be little history of their ancient wars they managed to keep their pueblos independent from their powerful neighbors for 1,000 years so I think people would be hard pressed to find a group with that kind of long term self preservation.

It's amazing to see how the buildings of the Anasazi and the modern Pueblo include the same kinds of religious structures over a thousand years later

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That's what i thought, but i figured since Seancolorado lives there he might know of some lesser studied peoples who have some potential

Well I certainly agree that Pueblo was the quintessential Native American mountain civ. I more meant along lines of "If Shoshone are in, we have an open library of options" that are just as valid and strong

The Utes. Specifically the Mountain Ute. They actually occupied many varying regions and terrains, but they certainly had a significant group dwelling in higher altitudes.

I know the Shoshone had a presence around the mountains. The Arapahoe migrated through them frequently. Navajo had once held boundaries in and around the mountains. But Utes would probably be the best bet after Pueblo

It's just unfortunate that so much of the documentation for American Indians - particularly those from the Rocky Mountains and Appalachians - is narrow no thanks to the phrase "history is written by the winners"

seancolorado said:

Well I certainly agree that Pueblo was the quintessential Native American mountain civ. I more meant along lines of "If Shoshone are in, we have an open library of options" that are just as valid and strong

The Utes. Specifically the Mountain Ute. They actually occupied many varying regions and terrains, but they certainly had a significant group dwelling in higher altitudes.

I know the Shoshone had a presence around the mountains. The Arapahoe migrated through them frequently. Navajo had once held boundaries in and around the mountains. But Utes would probably be the best bet after Pueblo

It's just unfortunate that so much of the documentation for American Indians - particularly those from the Rocky Mountains and Appalachians - is narrow no thanks to the phrase "history is written by the winners"

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Well that, and the fact 'we' considered them to be barely human and thus not really worth wasting too many pieces of paper on.

If the Pueblo Council objected to the "for profit" aspect of their heritage's inclusion as a civ, perhaps they would be "ok" with a Free DLC option. November is "Native American Heritage Month" in the United States. What better way to score some good PR while expanding the education of Native American heritage among non-Pueblo people? I assume Firaxis has some of the art work already done.

I am also interested in the sources cited about the Pueblo Council's objection.

Jatta Pake said:

If the Pueblo Council objected to the "for profit" aspect of their heritage's inclusion as a civ, perhaps they would be "ok" with a Free DLC option. November is "Native American Heritage Month" in the United States. What better way to score some good PR while expanding the education of Native American heritage among non-Pueblo people? I assume Firaxis has some of the art work already done.

I am also interested in the sources cited about the Pueblo Council's objection.

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As far as I remember, the issue wasn't that, but specifically about depicting Popé and their language for their sacrality. But I could be wrong.

That's the one I heard.

I think they are more than deserving to represented in Civ, and I think the American audience will greatly enjoy having them represented in here. As a dear Californian, I'm always happy to see more America represented...(Insert 'Meritage moment here). Especially for our modern culture, being represented in a history-inspired game is exceedingly respectable. Total War doesn't really do justice in piquing historical and cultural interest.

But, I value tradition and the importance of culture, so I'll accept their decision...for now.