The British Monarchy

Why is the Presidential system the only system that you favour? Is it because you are American and that's all you know? Perhaps you should look at the empirical facts, that the vast majority of Western liberal democracies are not Presidential and are in fact Parliamentary democracies should tip you off here. You're missing something, and one day you'll see it. Probably not in this thread though.
 
Because her power is not totally eroded, she is one of the pillars of our constitution. A constitution cannot merely be changed, especially one of such long standing.
We are not removing 1000 years of constitution on the whim of idealists.

I thought the UK doesn't really have a formal constitution, but instead a combination of documents and precedents?

If so, then you should consider writing an official one. That way it's not changed by the whims of politicians.

Really it should, as traditionally we can convict murderers.

Could still deserve a formal law though. Nothing wrong with writing stuff down.

Uh, Parliament Act 1911 changed this, for very good reasons.

Restricting the power of the House of Lords, yes. This wouldn't be as much a problem if you made that chamber elected in some manner rather than hereditary. That way, they're still the will of the people, but a separate House. Of course, the exact constituency and/or election manner has to change, otherwise it's best to go with unicameral.
 
Hereditary Lords have already been scrapped.

They are mostly appointed now, and we have Law Lords and Bishops in there too.

Electing, I'm ok with but it's just gonna be a House of Commons lite then really. House of Lords is supposed to be in some sense impartial. It's a dilemma and much more interesting than discussing HMQ.
 
What the british have, and what almost all important European countries except Russia and France have, is called a parliamentary system. One would have to change almost everything to move over to become a presidential republic(like all the failed african countries btw).

I think this is the point that was waiting to be made. The underlying assumption of this thread is that the presidential system is better, and that changing to it is for the better. All this harping on about seperation of powers as if that doesn't happen in the UK is ridiculous.

Looking at it comparatively, I would say that parliamentary system has proven a more successful model of democratic government. The US is pretty much the only example of a fully presidential system actually working in the long term. The Latin American countries have not been democratised long enough to say for sure that they will remain stable democracies. Russia is a joke of a democracy. Maybe South Korea, quite recently democratised too though. Mexico perhaps, don't know much about their politics. Then look at the parliamentary countries: UK, Spain, Ireland, Australia, Canada, Scandinavia, The Netherlands, Germany, Japan...
 
Why is the Presidential system the only system that you favour?

It isn't. I support benevolent dictatorship in principle, if not in practice because it's impossible to maintain, given how corruption works.

I also support a semi-Presidential system where executive power is well-divided between a Prime Minister, elected by the legislature, and a President/Chancellor, elected by direct vote. I posted a rough guideline in Altered Maps once when I made a map of the provinces of the Federal EU.

Is it because you are American and that's all you know?

Not at all. American politics are what I'm most familiar with, but I've looked at other systems; I think we can learn from them, and they can learn from us.

Perhaps you should look at the empirical facts, that the vast majority of Western liberal democracies are not Presidential and are in fact Parliamentary democracies should tip you off here.

Well aware. Just as universal healthcare can take many forms, so can liberal democracy.

You're missing something, and one day you'll see it. Probably not in this thread though.

I'm tempted to roll eyes here, but that'd make me seem overly hostile, so I won't. :)

And I change opinions very quickly if I get the right logic and facts. I changed positions VERY quickly on the death penalty in a matter of minutes, for perspective.
 
Restricting the power of the House of Lords, yes. This wouldn't be as much a problem if you made that chamber elected in some manner rather than hereditary. That way, they're still the will of the people, but a separate House. Of course, the exact constituency and/or election manner has to change, otherwise it's best to go with unicameral.
Erm, peerage is no longer hereditary.... Lords are appointed.

Moreover, the Lords is NOT the equivalent of the Senate any more than the Commons is the equivalent of the House. You really need to stop viewing Parliamentary systems through the veil of a Presidential system. It's getting tiresome.
 
I thought the UK doesn't really have a formal constitution, but instead a combination of documents and precedents?

If so, then you should consider writing an official one. That way it's not changed by the whims of politicians.
Oh, noone could ever quote the cnstitution, just if you know enough law, you're well aware of it.
We're planning to introduce a written one soon, but I'm somewhat sceptical.


Could still deserve a formal law though. Nothing wrong with writing stuff down.
Well Homicide Act 1956 layd statutory boundaries, however, by and large we are common law system, which works exceptionally well, and we probably have the best jurisprudent system in the world, being the progenitor of a quarter of the world's judicial systems.


Restricting the power of the House of Lords, yes. This wouldn't be as much a problem if you made that chamber elected in some manner rather than hereditary. That way, they're still the will of the people, but a separate House. Of course, the exact constituency and/or election manner has to change, otherwise it's best to go with unicameral.
Happening anyways. And it's not heriditory anyways,it's appointed. (Lord Kinnock :lol : )
HoL isn't bad actually; they protect our constitution.
 
Hereditary Lords have already been scrapped.

Well you know I approve.

They are mostly appointed now, and we have Law Lords and Bishops in there too.

If they were appointed by the local legislatures, this would be fine with me... who are they appointed by, formally and non?

Electing, I'm ok with but it's just gonna be a House of Commons lite then really. House of Lords is supposed to be in some sense impartial. It's a dilemma and much more interesting than discussing HMQ.

Well, you could have a separate Executive Branch, one that isn't elected by Parliament, and have them elect the Lords for life, so they don't have to worry about re-election and thus can be easily impartial. In this way, they're more like some bizarre bastard child of our Supreme Court(appointed by the popularly-elected (in practice, usually, even if we do have indirect election) executive) and an upper chamber.

The underlying assumption of this thread is that the presidential system is better, and that changing to it is for the better. All this harping on about seperation of powers as if that doesn't happen in the UK is ridiculous.

Well if the effective executive can be recalled by Parliament at any moment without a very rigorous procedure, there is no effective separation of powers. Contrast to the United States, where removing a President requires a firm majority in both chambers, which are also responsible to different terms and constituencies, making it EXTREMELY difficult to remove him.

Looking at it comparatively, I would say that parliamentary system has proven a more successful model of democratic government. The US is pretty much the only example of a fully presidential system actually working in the long term. The Latin American countries have not been democratised long enough to say for sure that they will remain stable democracies. Russia is a joke of a democracy. Maybe South Korea, quite recently democratised too though. Then look at the parliamentary countries: UK, Spain, Ireland, Australia, Canada, Scandinavia, The Netherlands, Germany, Japan...

I would attribute this more to economics than any particular governing system, however. When there's economic freedom and empowerment, chances are political freedom isn't far behind; it's why the Chinese system as it currently is is doomed to collapse as they keep growing.

I know America's distribution of wealth isn't the best, but I'm fairly certain it's better than Latin America or Russia.

There's also the respect for the rule of law. Europe and America have far more respect for the rule of law than many of those bad democracies do, where taking a bribe is more or less common practice.
 
All you need to force an election is to pass a motion of no confidence in the commons, that just needs a single vote majority.

Most of the time the PM is removed by their own party (as was the case with Thatcher and Blair - as soon as the party in power realises they have a lame duck PM and a credible alternative it's knives out time).
 
Erm, peerage is no longer hereditary.... Lords are appointed.

As I mentioned, I'm not 100% up to date with UK politics... I assumed they were hereditary by the name. My mistake, I apologise.

Moreover, the Lords is NOT the equivalent of the Senate any more than the Commons is the equivalent of the House. You really need to stop viewing Parliamentary systems through the veil of a Presidential system. It's getting tiresome.

In the sense of being an upper chamber and lower chamber, they are the same. Once you go beyond that, however, there are profound differences. Such as the constituency for the Lords, and the actual powers both wield.

We're planning to introduce a written one soon, but I'm somewhat sceptical.

Well, I wish you luck with that. I think you could only benefit from having an official, short document that can be cited as evidence of your rights.

Well Homicide Act 1956 layd statutory boundaries, however, by and large we are common law system, which works exceptionally well,

Given how our Supreme Court works, indeed, it can work exceptionally well. ...even if later Courts tend to fudge previous decisions quite a bit. Such is the flow of the river of progress, though, I suppose.

and we probably have the best jurisprudent system in the world, being the progenitor of a quarter of the world's judicial systems.

I do know that the British and American systems are by far the most emulated, yes. Our Constitution(which was partly inspired by the British in turn) is often used as a base for others, and I wouldn't be surprised if the British legal system is similarly the base for other countries'.

Though as I said, I think we can all learn from eachother... and so I wouldn't completely discredit the fact we probably also have some good ideas we can export to the rest of the world as we import theirs.

HoL isn't bad actually; they protect our constitution.

Much has changed from my reading up on them then.. I guess by merit of being appointed, they're no longer self-righteous bastards, and are "Lords" - in the sense of the fat noble who's selfish in every sense of the word - only in name?

All you need to force an election is to pass a motion of no confidence in the commons, that just needs a single vote majority.

That's exactly my problem with it; how easy it is for the government to change, and thus making it susceptible to short-term issues and above all, populist fury. Though the appointed upper chamber does mitigate this, yes?

The only problem is the fact both chambers aren't equal... thus defeating the idea of mutual checks on eachother.

Most of the time the PM is removed by their own party (as was the case with Thatcher and Blair - as soon as the party in power realises they have a lame duck PM and a credible alternative it's knives out time).

Which does keep them indirectly accountable to the people, yes. What I'm requesting is more direct accountability of Executive Power, as well as making the Executive balanced between his accountability to the legislature and the people as a whole.
 
Yeah, a Lord is just a title. And it can't be inherited any more. We used to have life peers as well as hereditary peers, we just have life peers now.

In the olden days it was hereditary and you were a Lord because one of your ancestors once sent some peasants off to war for the King or something.
 
TBH, I'd place any Lord Justice above any American judge in terms of jurisprudent ability.
 
Much has changed from my reading up on them then.. I guess by merit of being appointed, they're no longer self-righteous bastards, and are "Lords" - in the sense of the fat noble who's selfish in every sense of the word - only in name?
You must have a very interesting image of what the House of Lords used to be like.
 
I don't want to abolish the monarchy par se... I would like to see it as an elected position. For life elections might be nice, as it would keep it fun and ensure prospective rulers would have to be to their toes should the monarch catch a cold. At the very least I wan't to get rid of the hereditary unfairness of it all. Why does Harry get to spend his evening drinking Moet in VIP sections while I fill groceries in M&S?

Even better, we should have the monarch be randomly selected from the populace. How better to represent our country?
 
I think I'll change the title to the Parliamentary system, since this seems to be as much about Parliaments as Monarchs.

In the olden days it was hereditary and you were a Lord because one of your ancestors once sent some peasants off to war for the King or something.

:lol: That's as great an explanation of that one internet image that explains Christianity is absolutely bonkers terms...

TBH, I'd place any Lord Justice above any American judge in terms of jurisprudent ability.

Judging by what Paradigm said, they have quite a bit in common - being appointed for life, and thus being made mostly-impartial. Your appointment process is probably less political though, due to a different culture and the roles of your separate leaders.
 
Well if the effective executive can be recalled by Parliament at any moment without a very rigorous procedure, there is no effective separation of powers. Contrast to the United States, where removing a President requires a firm majority in both chambers, which are also responsible to different terms and constituencies, making it EXTREMELY difficult to remove him.

Why should it be required that it is difficult to remove the executive in a parliamentary system? I mean the party that makes the cabinet should be able to reshuffle without jumping through legal hoops.

I would attribute this more to economics than any particular governing system, however. When there's economic freedom and empowerment, chances are political freedom isn't far behind; it's why the Chinese system as it currently is is doomed to collapse as they keep growing.

I know America's distribution of wealth isn't the best, but I'm fairly certain it's better than Latin America or Russia.

There's also the respect for the rule of law. Europe and America have far more respect for the rule of law than many of those bad democracies do, where taking a bribe is more or less common practice.

India is an example of country that suffers from a lack of economic freedom, chronic income inequality and corruption - all of the problems you cite. However it remains one of the most enduring democracies in the developing world. Its a parliamentary republic based on the Westminster system. How do you account for that?
 
EDIT: Reply to Truronian (who never plays scrabble anymore :():

Well the heir to the throne receives training for life about the job.

I'm all for random selection as a replacement for the House of Lords though.
 
Well, you could have a separate Executive Branch, one that isn't elected by Parliament, and have them elect the Lords for life, so they don't have to worry about re-election and thus can be easily impartial. In this way, they're more like some bizarre bastard child of our Supreme Court(appointed by the popularly-elected (in practice, usually, even if we do have indirect election) executive) and an upper chamber.
The appointees to the House of Lords are either retired senior politicians or experts in various fields with a vast wealth of experience either in government, the civil service, or in other senior positions in private enterprise. (Or they're capable members of the current government's cabinet that are not Members of Parliament.) They are peers for life.

Well if the effective executive can be recalled by Parliament at any moment without a very rigorous procedure, there is no effective separation of powers. Contrast to the United States, where removing a President requires a firm majority in both chambers, which are also responsible to different terms and constituencies, making it EXTREMELY difficult to remove him.
There you go again, comparing the PM to the President... The President has total executive power but no legislative power, whereas a PM has less executive power (it is shared with his cabinet) but significant legislative power (as leader of the party as well as government). They are two completely different people, so of course you're going to have two completely different ways of getting rid of them. This whole discussion is just ridiculos -- you're saying "look! the parliamentary system is different to the presidential system in XYZ ways! You should change it!!!!"
 
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