Caravans seem to be a difficulty level leveller!

Bearing in mind the importance of science in almost every type of game which we choose to play, the harder the level, then the more science we receive from each trade route, at least during the all important early stages of game play. I have played some games where I am receiving more science from trade routes than my Cities are accumulating. The same can be said in reverse of course. If we then add to this what Spies can steal, then it would seem to me that we have a levelling of difficulty levels.

I am not saying that all levels are completely equal.

I am making a direct comparison to the Vanilla version where each level seemed like a mighty step. If I am missing something and there is a game mechanic which offsets the afore mentioned, then I am all ears?

Yep. There have been quite a few catch-up mechanics added to the game over the years. There's caravans, spies, discount on techs that are widely known, Scholars in Residence and science penalty for civs with high # of cities.

The idea is that no civ is supposed to "run away", you're always supposed to be able to catch up. You mention vanilla and its mighty difficulty levels. Back then it was incredibly easy (for both human and AI) to run away with the game simply on account of having a high number of cities. As long as you managed your you could settle and conquer dozens of cities and end up #1 in every demographic despite having virtually no infrastructure.

Now you take an initial hit to your science for each new city, which means huge numbers of small cities are no longer good. You have to grow and manage your empire. You also have the option to fight back your opponents' advantage from the start with Caravans and later Spies.

One might argue that science from early caravans is too good and make harder difficulty levels easier, but I don't think so. Caravans are a double-edged sword. If someone is close enough to send you a caravan, they're also close enough to covet your lands.

Caravans are an expansion option that most people felt that they didn't need in their lives. Caravans are economic because they help out the coffers with gold if caravans are sent out to trade with other civilizations. Not only that but caravans can only trade with your own cities by using granaries and workshops.

Spies have come a long way because they're no longer used as a GP like all the other GPs and there are less spies now than there used to be before. Spies have come a long way and it seems that they have evolved even into a way better type of spy. Spying missions have been limited to a few cities than they used to in civilization 4 because spies also used to be able to be moved like any other unit.

Much more significant to making the game a full level of difficulty easier when running Tradition is food cargo ships to the capital (caravans if capital is inland.) The massive pop growth to the capital over time provides more science to you than the external routes would, particularly since focus on science will lead to you having a higher base science that the AI.

joncnunn said:

Much more significant to making the game a full level of difficulty easier when running Tradition is food cargo ships to the capital (caravans if capital is inland.) The massive pop growth to the capital over time provides more science to you than the external routes would, particularly since focus on science will lead to you having a higher base science that the AI.

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I wondered if someone might mention this! Yes, once 15% into game time, this would seem to be the way to go, it's like having the Hanging Gardens in every City. I get the impression that the AI civs prefer to have gold producing trade routes. So yet another game mechanic that suits us humans more than the AI.

Paszczak said:

Scholars in Residence and science penalty for civs with high # of cities.

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Yes, another leveller, although it has to be said we are not guaranteed to get the motion passed.

Paszczak said:

You mention vanilla and its mighty difficulty levels. Back then it was incredibly easy (for both human and AI) to run away with the game simply on account of having a high number of cities. As long as you managed your you could settle and conquer dozens of cities and end up #1 in every demographic despite having virtually no infrastructure.

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Agree to an extent, but once the courthouse bug was patched out it became a whole new ballgame! Even with the "bug", only the very best of players were able to achieve what you suggest when playing Deity level.

EDIT - I didn't exactly quote Mighty levels, my intention was to imply that each level would be a huge step up from the previous one.

Paszczak said:

Now you take an initial hit to your science for each new city, which means huge numbers of small cities are no longer good. You have to grow and manage your empire. You also have the option to fight back your opponents' advantage from the start with Caravans and later Spies.

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I didn't know about this, does this also apply to puppets?

Paszczak said:

One might argue that science from early caravans is too good and make harder difficulty levels easier, but I don't think so. Caravans are a double-edged sword. If someone is close enough to send you a caravan, they're also close enough to covet your lands.

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I am talking about early usage of this game mechanic and how it helps to keep us in touch. I fully concur with what you have to say about what may happen later. I have been playing ocean maps so feel pretty safe trading until 25% of the way through the game!

reddishrecue said:

Spies have come a long way and it seems that they have evolved even into a way better type of spy. Spying missions have been limited to a few cities than they used to in civilization 4 because spies also used to be able to be moved like any other unit.

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I hated the spies in earlier versions, they could even cause global warming as far as I can remember! As you say the spies in Civ5 seem a lot better and do not dominate proceedings as much as they used to. Back on topic, I still see them as a leveller!

if you're getting a lot of science from trade routes, either you're playing on the first 50 turns of deity, or you're not playing very well...

trade routes for food is just too good to pass up, as they get all the modifiers. more food, more citizens, more science. as for catching up mechanics, there are many ways, but the core is always science.

Sessy said:

if you're getting a lot of science from trade routes, either you're playing on the first 50 turns of deity, or you're not playing very well...

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I play Tiny Islands Marathon Deity = king level, so no, and to the second part, well probably correct!