Greece or Sweden for Diplomatic Victory?

darkace77450

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I'm getting ready to attempt my first Diplomatic Victory, and I've narrowed my choice of Civilizations down to Greece or Sweden. In a vacuum, I'd be far more inclined to play Greece than Sweden. But while Greece's UA obviously lends itself well to a Diplomatic Victory, Sweden's does too and in a far more interesting way. The idea of turning every Great Person into a "Great Diplomat" sounds like it lends itself to a far more interesting way to chase a Diplomatic Victory. For those of you who have used both Civs to pursuit Diplomatic Victories, which did you enjoy more?
 
Sweden is especially great if you like some wars in between. Dip into honor, get a lot Great Generals and you have even more free CS. But overall I think both Civs are great, with Greece's UUs matter earlier and Sweden's later.
 
These civilizations are both good at diplomacy. This could be a difficult decision to make because Greece loses and gains city state alliance points at a favorable rate. Sweden gifting great people also goes with good cs alliance points after they're gifted away. Siam also is good at diplomatic victories but the only difference with Siam is that it doesn't make city state alliances as easy as Greece or Sweden but Siam does receive more resources and other etc., stuff that cs specialize in.
 
Sadly, it's just as effective to wait until the very end of the game to become allies with lots of city states when seeking diplomatic instead of being allied with lots of civs for most of the game.

So this would lean me towards Sweden if you have wars to generate those extra Great Generals & Great Admirals to gift to the city states.

It may be even more effective to play as Venice though, sending GMOV to buy out city states you had close to zero influence with, reducing the total number of votes you need to win.
 
If you play Sweden, then you will tons of great people. Some players will say "no, a GS is to good to be given away" and the same for all GS but admirals and generals, but they forget that if you are going for a diplomacy victory, you don't need those late GP. All you need is to get to is Globalization (not necessary, but good). Save a bunch of various GP and then give them a way in the right time and win. It almost feel like cheating.
With Greece you need to build up influence over time, but if you do, CS will usually be at least friends forever with you. You will probably need some cash here to put some "just friendly" over to the alliance group, but not so much cash than most other civs need.
 
Just one data point, but my first run at Deity was with Sweden aiming for DV. It went pretty smooth!
 
They are both interesting.

With Greece you will have some nice CS allies all game, if you do early quests, because with shared religion, patronage opener and UA you basically never lose any influence. In late game it's a little tougher to get new Allies since you do not have bonuses like Sweden. Greece has the advantage of being stronger early on, you can also demand tribute from CSs because Hoplites are pretty intimidating, and your UA helps with recovering influence fast. Military you can defend well and even conquer if that's what you want.

Sweden is a little more challenging, you need to befriend other civs to take advantage of the GP generation bonus, but that makes other enemies. You can go to war in order to generate great generals but you do not have many military advantages early on. Each GP generated creates some though decisions: gift it or use it. Early on a GP gift will mean guaranteed alliance, you can ally 2-3 CSs that give you nice bonuses and try to maintain the relationship all game. Late game the GP gifts really help you and you can easily ally a CS that requires 200-250 influence, in a short period (with a spy rigging elections and eventually attempting a coup, a GP gift will turn the odds in your favor). It's really fun to play with Sweden and each time things will be different.

One thing that totally changes the game play is if another Civ will also aggressively pursue diplomatic victory. I think Greece is better in this case, because you will be able to keep your allies easier. With Sweden you can pursue a "dark horse" strategy and just get a massive amount of CS allies as you hit information era. The disadvantage is that you do not have a word to say in the World Congress almost the entire game, which is in my opinion half the fun in a diplomatic victory. In my last Sweden game I was beaten to both Forbidden Palace and Leaning Tower of Pisa (wonders that I pursued to make my game easier). The Dutch grabbed an insane amount of CS early on and they clearly pursued DV as they filled Patronage and got Forbidden Palace. I had a really tough time keeping a decent number of CS as allies, and eventually gave up and kept just a maritime and religious one. I never had a word to say in the Congress until the last two proposals. The most I could do was preventing others to declare World Religion and World Ideology. I lost the battle for World Fair and was about to give up, but I continued and eventually I was able to turn the tables with Freedom (Arsenal of Democracy and Treaty Organization). I was really impressed of how fast I was able to gain influence on CS, and I got enough CS by the time I hit information era, in order to become host for the fist time in this game. Sweden is really strong late game.
 
Out of curiosity, does gifting a Great Person to a City-State as Sweden trigger the gold from Mausoleum of Halicarnassus? I'm inclined to say no, but it would be nice to have a definitive answer.
 
No, it does not. And it also does not trigger the benefit from the Reliquary enhancer belief.
 
That is kind of harsh, but then getting your GP killed is not a trigger either!

I should say that I think Greece is easier DiploV than Sweden. If Greece is not in your game, and you aim for DiploV from the beginning, any civ should work.
 
That is kind of harsh, but then getting your GP killed is not a trigger either!

I should say that I think Greece is easier DiploV than Sweden. If Greece is not in your game, and you aim for DiploV from the beginning, any civ should work.

I agree, particularly when GP are difficult to move to city states. Moving great people to city states isn't always possible.
 
Outside of the obligatory Forbidden Palace (and the Leaning Tower of Pisa for Sweden), which Wonders do you guys covet when playing for a Diplomatic Victory?
 
Question, does Mauosoleum of Harlicarnissus & Reliquary belief apply when Sweden gifts a Great Person?

Darkace - I would say Colossus, also Petra
An extra trade route, gold etc does open up more opportunities with citystates, I.e easier to spread religion etc...
Grand Temple I think amplifies trade route faith as well so is useful

There's not really many wonders that specifically benefit citystates. There's probably enough wonders in the game now but that is a possible niche for developers, a St Peter's Basilica Wonder focused on Citystates would be a nice addition.

But your best bet with either Greece or Sweden, just play Freedom & take the trade route bonus to citystates then you can't lose.
 
Question, does Mauosoleum of Harlicarnissus & Reliquary belief apply when Sweden gifts a Great Person?

Darkace - I would say Colossus, also Petra
An extra trade route, gold etc does open up more opportunities with citystates, I.e easier to spread religion etc...
Grand Temple I think amplifies trade route faith as well so is useful

There's not really many wonders that specifically benefit citystates. There's probably enough wonders in the game now but that is a possible niche for developers, a St Peter's Basilica Wonder focused on Citystates would be a nice addition.

But your best bet with either Greece or Sweden, just play Freedom & take the trade route bonus to citystates then you can't lose.
Do you know what reliquary belief provides?
 
Outside of the obligatory Forbidden Palace (and the Leaning Tower of Pisa for Sweden), which Wonders do you guys covet when playing for a Diplomatic Victory?

Machu Pichu (I have no idea how it's spelled) and every wonder that gives or helps you save money are also good. So sometimes even the religious ones if you can push a tithe-based religion.

But usually I build units, check which leader has build all the juicy wo ders instead of military and just take his capital...
 
Question, does Mauosoleum of Harlicarnissus & Reliquary belief apply when Sweden gifts a Great Person?

Darkace - I would say Colossus, also Petra
An extra trade route, gold etc does open up more opportunities with citystates, I.e easier to spread religion etc...
Grand Temple I think amplifies trade route faith as well so is useful

There's not really many wonders that specifically benefit citystates. There's probably enough wonders in the game now but that is a possible niche for developers, a St Peter's Basilica Wonder focused on Citystates would be a nice addition.

I do find it odd that of all the World Wonders (46 of them, I believe), there's just one that directly deals with diplomacy. With so many Wonders that affect military, culture, tourism, and science, you'd think they'd have taken the time to add a few that affect Influence in some way. That's a bit disappointing, as is the fact that Great Merchants serve as de facto Great Diplomats.
 
Sweden's diplomatic victory could come a lot more difficult because gifting GPs isn't as easy as it looks. Sending GPs to city states could often be complicated since city state control is difficult to do particularly if you are faraway from a city state. If you really are trying to get that GP off to the city state for extra points then using a military unit can be helpful since barbarians can be on their way and try to plunder away. Sending a GP could've been a lot easier if there was an easy way to airlift it over to the city state. Not only that but there could be other civilizations in the way of your GP and your city state which won't open their borders to you.
Greece can hang on to a city state a lot easier than most other civilizations because once you get quick city state ally points, they won't get destroyed that easily. Why? Because of Hellenistic league. Hellenistic league makes the city state influence by greece drop slower when Greece has alliance points and rises faster when Greece gets a sumof its aalliancelpoints in a city state.
 
You don't have to do any of that. Just gift the GP (also works for any other unit) from the CS diplo screen, from anywhere on the map, and it will arrive at the CS 3 turns later. No need to worry about barbs or enemy units, or taking dozens of turns to navigate difficult terrain.
 
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