Fall Gelb - Or Not?

Since the Korean War is now just down to it's last internal playtesting and the writing of flavour text in the game.txt and pedia.txt files until it's release (when hopefully one of you won't find a tragic, game-breaking flaw I may have missed), I've decided on my next project, which may have been given away by my last unit request. I'm doing a Fall Gelb scenario, but from a French perspective. This will (hopefully) be the ultimate in the overwhelmed defender scenario, with even little chance of the turnaround possible in Red Front or SCW - the goal is to stubbornly resist to an ahistorical level until the Achilles heel of the Wehrmacht - their notoriously logistics - starts to suffer, and the confident and arrogant German General realize that the operation won't be the walkover they had planned. Taking back Low Countries cities will potentially add a further level of victory. Italy entering the conflict and Britain (and the few Canadian and Free Polish, Danish, and Norweigan forces who joined them) withdrawing are both determined in whether or not they will happen by how well you're doing. As it stands, your level of victory is determined as follows:
-0 French cities - Decisive French Defeat - the Axis do better than they did historically and completely conquer France with no need for a puppet state
-About as many French cities as were historically in Metropolitan Vichy France - Marginal French Defeat - France surrenders and negotiates the establishment of a pro-Fascist puppet under Field Marshal Henri Petain
-Most starting French cities - Marginal French Victory - The Wehrmacht military machine's logistics and morale begin to stall and the General Staff realize the endeavor was highly misevaluated and recoils to regroup and plan a new strategy, given Britain and France an ahistorical opportunity to recover and perhaps even take an early offensive
-Almost all starting French cities and a few Low Countries cities (or a number thereabouts) - Decisive French Victory - The German General Staff and Wehrmacht in general are dealt a huge and unexpected blow that may well leave WW2 in Europe a lot shorter than it actually was
This is currently just in the planning stage while I playtest and do some finishing text for my KW scenario, but any commentary or ideas are welcome.

Fall Gelb is indeed an excellent choice. The invasion of France in 1940 has long been one of the scenarios I wanted to undertake and had even begun some very preliminary work on it. The fact that another talented designer is willing to undertake the project means I can enjoy playing the game without having to do the grunt work myself . I would definitely want to play this one.

The great thing about such a scenario is that you already have all the unit graphics you could possibly want from Fairline's wonderful WWII collection and plenty of historical data you can collect from the internet for your research.

For my part, one of the main conceptual problems I was having was with regards scale. Should it cover the entire map of France and the Lowlands or just the primary northern-western French part of the campaign? Should the unit scale be at the regimental or divisional level, keeping in mind that there were roughly 141 German to 144 Allied divisions (not counting the Italian divisions or the opposing naval and air forces)?

If you are doing it at the regimental scale and the entire map of France you are looking at a minimum of 500+ units per side. Since around 40-45% of the French border lies between Switzerland and the Mediterranean you would have to have a VERY large map indeed to scale the game accordingly.

Considering Italy only entered the conflict in the last six days and their overall contribution to the final victory was essentially nil, I was personally leaning more towards limiting my scenario to just the north-western campaign but hadn't come to a final conclusion.

Because the campaign lasted only six weeks I believe each turn would have to represent a day.

Would the French control all the Allied forces (French, British, Belgium and Netherlands)?

Depending on the scale you plan on using my primary concerns is whether the AI could handle the offensive role in your scenario. It's much easier to program the AI to defend than it is to attack. In your Korean scenario, the opening NK offensive was easier to control because 1) the map scale is relatively small thereby making it easier to funnel the thrust of the attack and 2) the initial push only lasts the first 8-9 turns. It would be much more difficult to keep a German AI offensive going for 40+ turns on a large scale map especially if it has to go in multiple directions.

As usual these are simply observations and comments on some of the issues I believe you might come across. Feel free to take or leave them.

tootall,

Your observations are spot on. Having a very clear concept in mind before undertaking a project is essential. Does this kind of scenario suit the AI and can it be assisted by events to a point where it is still challenging? In my opinion this scenario is possible for a German AI, but it will mean a huge and complex events file. The key to German victory was their concentrated attacks at weak points followed by rapid exploitation into the enemy's rear. This is not something the AI excels at unless it is heavily guided by event. A war of attrition would be easily created, but a historical blitzkrieg will be difficult.

Yes, McMonkey is quite correct. An AI offensive would have to be heavily scripted with, I suspect, a lot of MoveTo commands which are in my experience not always the most reliable events.

Another factor to consider, the larger the map the poorer the AI decision making becomes.

These are some of the factors you will have to take into consideration in your design process to evaluate what is the best approach.

One thing I was considering was a division-level scale, even though wiping out a whole division in a single day's engagement is not NORMALLY realistic, except at battles on the scale of devastation of Waterloo, Gettysburg, or Stalingrad, but it would allow a more manageable calibre to work things at I think. I had planned the Italian entry to be triggered by some failing in the French defense (I'm not sure exactly what), so it could theoretically happen earlier than was historical, or even not at all. My initial plan was for the BEF (and associated air and naval forces) and the Low Countries to be separate but allied players, but now I'm not so sure, as I'm suddenly reminded of certain gripes about AI allies inadvertently 'getting in the way' of one's strategy, and having no way at all to 'nudge' them. These are some initial thoughts.

If you plan to make the scenario a historical campaign with event generated units (as opposed to building units in cities) then focussing the map on the north-east of France and the Low Countries would be a wise choice. Really this scenario would work much easier from the German perspective, but that has been done so many times before. I hope you can get it to work from the Allied perspective, but getting the concept right from the start is essential. Better to put a lot of thought in now and make the tough decisions on scale, objectives and events than launch into it without a concrete plan as it could turn into a real slog if you try and make major changes later on in the design process.

I'm not trying to put a dampener on your concept, but I think it is essential to plan a scenario that plays to Civ2's strengths and not fight against its weaknesses. One reason WW1 scenarios (except specific campaigns like El Aurens) never really work well, while WW2 blitzkreig type scenarios do work well is because they play to the games strengths.

Is there a good such map in circulation? My ability to create realistic maps from scratch is very limited, to be honest. I can make alterations to extant maps to accommodate custom terrain or cut off addendum pieces of land and such, but making whole new maps from whole cloth has never been a strong point of mine.

Though I'm certain there are maps of France out there (think of my Battle of France scenario), I'm not certain you will find one that suits your specific needs.

Again it's all about the scale you want to use, e.g. what distance does each tile represent. Here are some very rough numbers to think about. It's 514 km from Dunkerque, on the English Chanel, to Mulhouse on the French-Swiss border. It's 345 km from Dunkerque to Metz (approximately where the Maginot line ended) and 176 km by direct flight between Metz and Mulhouse (where the line begins).

If each tile equals around 10 km that means roughly 51 tiles from the Channel to the Swiss border, with 17 of those tiles representing the Maginot line (it's longer because it's really a V-shape when you consider that it covers the provinces of Alsace-Lorraine but you get the drift). This leaves you with 34 tiles north-east of the end of the Maginot fortifications to the Channel.

Of course the line isn't so direct since you have to factor in Belgium and the Netherlands but it helps to give you an idea of the scale. We know that the German forces where split into Army Groups A, B and C, with A & B containing 75 divisions for the main thrust and Group C with 18 divisions to hold a defensive position. There were a further 42 divisions in reserve. For Army Group A & B's front you are probably looking at a density of 2-3 divisions per tile depending on the particular sectors and where the main thrusts are.

Now France is 962 km (598 m) north to south and 950 km (590 m) east to west. If you want to extend the map to include all of the country at 10 km per tile you are probably talking of a map that would be 96 tiles high by 95 tiles wide (but not exactly because of the way the map grid is designed and how you decided to orientate your map). It would need to be larger still to include Belgium and Netherlands.

Anything greater than 10 km per tile and I fear you wouldn't be able to avoid a grid lock of units per tile. But for every km below 10 and you have to realize you are increasing the size of the map.

This seems to be a little daunting. That's why it's important, as McMonkey said, to have a clear picture of what you want to do before you start because once you commit to a map size it's not possible to roll it back without starting over.

EDIT: This also brings into questions the maximum size of map that you can create. Perhaps someone can confirm what it is?

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/746/game-france-1940-german-blitzkrieg-west simple
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/7637/fall-france monstrous detail
Orders of battle http://france1940.free.fr/en_index.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_battle_for_the_Battle_of_France
Good luck!

Map. The western half of JPanse's Götterdämmerung scenario maybe?

Although I don't yet have a good map yet, there a couple of other issues I'm sorting through:
-Italy, especially with my idea of their entry into the conflict being triggered by a specific event as opposed to a historic date (they likely will only be seriously considered however if a full-France/Low Countries map was used as opposed to a Northwest France with the Low Countries, in any case)
-The British Withdrawal, which I believe would NEED to be triggered by a specific event, as I can't see the BEF jumping ship if the French were defending extraordinarily well. The issue is also how to work it, effectively, if it ends up happening.
-Whether the BEF and associated forces, and the various Low Countries, will be united with the French as a single player, or each be separate but allied players (I'm leaning to the former on this one)
-Whether to work the fortresses of the Maginot Line as immobile units, terrain, or both (units are problematic as the AI likes to waste perfectly good units futilely attacking such units, I've noticed)

Here are some of my ideas:

Italy: Come on, they were thrown back by French POLICE forces!

Brits: Split them into two Civs. If the Germans conquer a specific city, the one British Civ could be destroyed (thus loosing most British troops on the continent).

Low Countries: Turn them into barbarian cities.

Maginot Line: both (units and terrain)

While your logic on the Italians is probably sound, and possibly on the Maginot Line, I'm not quite sure I see the advantage of making the Low Countries barbarians. Also, two British civs MAY work, but it would have to be carefully planned and pondered.

Okay, I'm formally announcing this. I don't currently have a satisfactory map, and I can't draw one worth a damn, and there's several fundamental issues I am having trouble with, and several others that are quite daunting. Really, the real strengths of this project is that I know in a broad, general sense what I want to accomplish, and there's no want of graphics for this project. For the time being, I'm putting this on hiatus. I'm formally stating this to all. If anyone else wants to take a swing at it in the mean time (I think tootall mentioned interest) by all means, go ahead. I have two other potential projects I'm considering that MAY be less difficult to accomplish (I hope) I just have to decide between. And, of course, if all goes well, the final version of KW (I hope it's the final version - it's been years) should be released shortly.

Better to go into a project with a very clear plan of how you aim to achieve your objectives than launch into something and discover the issues later on. That's not to say this project isn't doable, it just doesn't lend itself easily to the Allied side.

Why not simply modify the existing scenario "Drole de Guerre" by Javier Arriaga? It perfectly fits the context of your proposed scenario. The map includes all of the Low Countries, France, western Germany, Switzerland, and northern Italy. It kicks off in May 1940 with a strong German invasion of the Low Countries.

There is no reason to start from scratch. Gapetit made a nice ToT conversion of this scenario (which I've attached). A little tweaking could turn it into a challenging fight for survival!

Although the map, list of units, and general layout could easily be made into what I had in mind, I've never been big on making someone else's scenario my own. Although I know that incredible results have been accomplished with such (like, recently, McMonkey making a stellar redux of Pablostuka's Spanish Civil War Scenario, expanding it in incredible ways), it's just never been my personal style. Call me stubborn, but, except for the map and graphics (which I admit I have absolutely no talent to create), and taking advice here and there, I prefer to take those component parts and put something together from the ground up in my own vision. But I may thank you for showing me a decent scenario that made a try (albeit with seemingly both playable Germans and French in mind as possible, and much more limited in events in the day it was created) at what I was trying to accomplish. It might still serve as inspiration in the future.

I understand what you're saying, Patine. I wasn't sure if you were aware of this scenario, which is why I wanted to bring it to your attention. There are a lot of classics from 10-15 years ago that have fallen through the cracks. Like you said, if nothing else, you could utilize the map. The city placement, starting positions, unit strengths, etc. could be used as inspiration. In general, I like your scenario ideas, and look forward to seeing whatever project you have up your sleeve.

Certainly the map is very, though I also just recently stumbled another map that may also work deceptively named "Charles.mp" (though which Charles, from a multiple of monarchs who've had interest in that area to even Charles De Gaulle, is a mystery to me, but that's beside the point). Also, the units from Drole will likely serve as an inspiration when I am inspired on ways of tackling certain other issues and take this up again. But, again, thank-you for sending this to me.

Maybe you could split the French into to civs (North and South) and allow the North part to produce English-style troops, too. They could loose this ability after a special event, thus cutting off the supply of British-style troops on the continent. Or simply be turned by the Leonardo wonder into a French Resistance unit - or some crap unit (a fleeing unit without any ability to attack). However, the North French-British troops would disappear from the map.

An interesting idea, but it would beg the question, would the player be expected to play the Northern or Southern, and what stops the other one from playing the "intrusive ally" Civ trope and blocking up all of your road/roadways and bottlenecks?