Ask a Theologian III

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The traditional Christian view was that Adam and Eve were chaste and innocent (on some views, such as that of Irenaeus, they were actually children), and only after being expelled from the garden did they have sex. Certainly if you read the story you'll find that it's only after being expelled that we're told that they did, and that Eve became pregnant.

The very first consequence of partaking in the knowledge was:

Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

Thats sex, thats what the whole fuss was about - God was pissed off because the Serpent taught his pets how to procreate (or enabled them to procreate).

and onto our all-knowing God ;)

Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?"

He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."

And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"

I suspect God saw a pregnant Eve and thats what gave it away... The figleaves are just symbols for the procreative act...

Here is what God said

And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring [a] and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel."

16 To the woman he said,
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."


Yup, Eve was pregnant

But here's my question:

Did God lie to Adam (and Eve) about the consequences?

God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "

The Serpent predicted a different outcome

"You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

And this is what God reported to his buddies

And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.

God practically quotes the Serpent's prediction.
 
Realizing nakedness and first feeling shame does not equal discovering sex. I see no reason to suppose fig leaves symbolize procreation.

I repeat, procreation was the first commandment given to mankind, not some secret kept from them. (They may or may not have begun procreating by the time of their expulsion though. I vaguely remember reading that Rabbinical tradition taught that their time in the garden was only a few hours long, so their was simply no time for it until after they sinned.) Similarly man was always intended to work, but the curse made these tasks more difficult and less enjoyable.


God never said anything about being punished for merely touching the fruit. Eve added that bit on her own. Perhaps at first this was just an extra precaution that she or Adam meant to keep them from even coming close to breaking the one rule they had, but it is still the kind of addition to the word of god by human tradition that the scripture speaks against. It ended up making it more likely to break the commandment, as she came to see that there was no punishment for breaking what she considered a command and so continued to break the actual command. Although unintentional instead of willful disobedience, it could be argued that her adding to God's command is the actual first sin recorded rather than her willfully choosing to eat of the fruit.
 
MC
I repeat, procreation was the first commandment given to mankind, not some secret kept from them.

That commandment was not given to Adam and Eve, I can keep repeating that too... Their commandment was to remain ignorant of some specific knowledge - and ALL the symbolism in the story points to procreation as that knowledge.

God never said anything about being punished for merely touching the fruit. Eve added that bit on her own.

So what? This is what God told Adam (before Eve was created, she got the warning from Adam and/or God so we have 3 possible sources) :

but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

They didn't die, hence my question for the theologian - did God lie to Adam about the consequences?

Perhaps at first this was just an extra precaution that she or Adam meant to keep them from even coming close to breaking the one rule they had, but it is still the kind of addition to the word of god by human tradition that the scripture speaks against. Although unintentional instead of willful disobedience, it could be argued that her adding to God's command is the actual first sin recorded rather than her willfully choosing to eat of the fruit.

Why was Adam punished for Eve's alleged sin? When God became angry it was because "they" ate the fruit, not because Eve may have misquoted God's warning about the fruit. God doesn't even mention this "first sin" when explaining his tantrum to his buddies, why is that? Bogus theory, thats why ;)
 
I really think that trying to make a coherent story out of something like this, with consistent motives applied to the characters such as God, and trying to work out whether they're "lying" or whatever, is to take the wrong approach from the start. The text is a patchwork of earlier myths and ideas which have been through any number of revisions, and which are not fully integrated. You can't meaningfully ask whether "God is lying" to Adam and Eve as if he's a character from Wuthering Heights, let alone as if he's a character from a newspaper report. This is the mythic genre and these sorts of questions just don't apply.
 
that may be true, but without any concept (or idea) of God, "seeing God" has no meaning.
If seeing something is meaningless without a concept or idea of what you're seeing, then A priori knowledge of the universe is neccesary in order to make meaning out of anything.You couldn't have a concept of numbers, because you would n't have aconcept of words to explain the numbers, nor a concept of sound or hearing so "hearing something" would have no meaning.
From your understanding, experience is drawn from knowledge, not vice versa.
 
OK, so I was reading the wiki page on Christian Scientists since Arakhor brought it up in another thread.

And I saw this:

Christian Scientists argue that Jesus never claimed to be God and that he implicitly denied it in Matthew 19:16–17

Here's the quote:

Matthew 19:16-17 (King James Version)

16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Is Jesus denying he is a manifestation of God here?
 
I don't see a denial, implicit or otherwise, in that passage. The translation you give is not right; there is no direct reference to God in verse 17. In fact the verse in question is a reworking of Mark 10:18, which does directly refer to God, and which seems to be more of a denial. Both passages are rather odd, but the Markan passage implies a distinction between God (who is good) and Jesus (who seems to reject the label), while the Matthaean passage just deflects the issue.
 
If Mary was born free of original sin, why couldn't the rest of us have been? Also, is it a purely Catholic doctrine that she was born free of original sin?
 
I'm pretty sure it's an exclusively Catholic doctrine.

Mary's sinlessness is supposed to depend upon Christ's sacrifice. That is, the benefits of Christ's atonement are applied to Mary retroactively, or in advance, depending on how you look at it. (This raises interesting questions about Christ's freedom in choosing to make that sacrifice later on, which we will pass over.) So she isn't just born sinless by divine fiat - it still depends upon Christ making his sacrifice later on.

I have also wondered why this means God couldn't do the same thing for everyone and have them born sinless by applying the benefits of the atonement to them in the same way. If there is a reason why he couldn't, I don't know what it is. Although I'm not sure what purpose it would serve anyway, since everyone would commit sins of their own later on anyway, nullifying the effect.
 
Oh, no, it's important to many kinds of Protestantism too. For example, Calvinism traditionally teaches the doctrine of total depravity, according to which every human action is sinful. (That's not to say that every human action is equally morally wrong, though.)

Certainly an emphasis of this kind is especially strong in Catholicism and Protestantism, rather than the eastern forms of Christianity. And of course it's downplayed in liberal Protestantism. Of course it rather depends on what one means by "original sin". As I understand it, the notion that human beings are born with a tendency to sin is common to most kinds of Christianity and goes back to early centuries. The notion that human beings are born actually guilty of sin is obviously a much stronger claim, and it developed in the later fourth century; I believe that Ambrose of Milan, Ambrosiaster, and (above all) Augustine of Hippo are associated with it. (I might be wrong about Ambrosiaster - this is just off the top of my head.) Obviously Augustine was enormously influential on western theology, and he emphasised original sin to perhaps an even greater extent than its place in his own thought really warranted, because it was an important part of the Pelagian dispute which occupied his final years. So he wrote a lot of books about what a miserable lot human beings are, in response to the Pelagian arguments that human beings can effectively save themselves. Of course, Augustine was motivated in this by his belief in divine grace, which can be extended to anyone, no matter how wretched; he was horrified by Pelagian theology because it effectively said (as he understood it) that if you're going to be saved, you've got to do it yourself, and if you're a sinner, there's no grace and no salvation for you. It's a bit unfair that today Augustine gets characterised as a terribly gloomy and morbid character while Pelagius is often presented as an optimistic liberal; Pelagius thought far more people were going to hell than Augustine did.
 
What's the catholic view on the words by Jesus, the "God, if you can, take this cup away from me"?
For me, it's a proof that Jesus is not God... has a different will from God...
 
They did die eventually.

Because they didn't eat from the tree of life... They certainly did not die the day they ate from the tree of knowing.

I really think that trying to make a coherent story out of something like this, with consistent motives applied to the characters such as God, and trying to work out whether they're "lying" or whatever, is to take the wrong approach from the start. The text is a patchwork of earlier myths and ideas which have been through any number of revisions, and which are not fully integrated. You can't meaningfully ask whether "God is lying" to Adam and Eve as if he's a character from Wuthering Heights, let alone as if he's a character from a newspaper report. This is the mythic genre and these sorts of questions just don't apply.

Who told the truth - God or the Serpent? God said they'd die the very day, the Serpent said their eyes would be open, they'd be like the gods. What does God say after finding out they ate from the wrong tree? He said their eyes were open, knowing good and evil like the gods. God quotes the Serpent!!! Have you studied these earlier myths? Abram was a Sumerian ;)
 
What's the catholic view on the words by Jesus, the "God, if you can, take this cup away from me"?
For me, it's a proof that Jesus is not God... has a different will from God...

He doesn't address "God". He addresses "Father". So Jesus is not the Father. But that is orthodox. The notion that Jesus and the Father are identical would be modalism, that is a denial of the true distinction between the persons of the Trinity, which is heretical.

Now the passage does indeed imply that Jesus has a will that is distinct from that of the Father. But that, again, is orthodox. The orthodox view is that Jesus had two wills - a divine will, and also a human will, which was distinct. (Take "will" here to mean "faculty of willing".) If Jesus had had only one will, the reasoning goes, it would have been a divine one, and he would have lacked a human will; consequently he would not have been fully human, because part of what it is to be genuinely human is to have a genuinely human faculty of willing.

So the orthodox reading of the passage is that Jesus' divine will intended to go through with his Passion, but his human will was less happy at the prospect. Nevertheless, he did will to go through with it with his human will. Jesus' human will was always in agreement with his divine will.
 
but isn't claiming that Jesus has two wills sort of tearing Jesus apart and bordering on nestorianism?

thank You for reply.
 
Did common people call God "Father" then? I mean: would it have made sense, if ordinary guy said the same when enduring hard times. (I know the saying "son of God" has been mentioned few times in this thread, but don't remember if this has been).
 
but isn't claiming that Jesus has two wills sort of tearing Jesus apart and bordering on nestorianism?

thank You for reply.

That's the obvious argument against it. The history of this doctrine is long and staggeringly complicated, but in a nutshell, the doctrine that Jesus had only one will - known as monotheletism - was proposed in the early seventh century by the patriarch Sergius I, with the deliberate aim of appeasing the Monophysites and avoiding Nestorianism. He believed that the Monophysites were suspicious of Chalcedonian Christianity (and its claim that Jesus had two natures) on the grounds that two natures implied two persons, which would be Nestorianism. He hoped to use the formula of "one will" to show that it was possible to believe that Jesus had two natures without thereby having to say he was two persons, because where there is only one will, there is clearly only one person.

(Sergius had already attempted something similar by suggesting the formula "one energy/activity" in Jesus, but this hadn't been very successful, I suspect largely because it wasn't very clear what it meant.)

So Sergius would probably have agreed with your point that "two wills" sounds like "two persons"; at any rate he thought that "one will" would categorically rule out "two persons" and hopefully mollify the Monophysites. Needless to say, it didn't. More damagingly, many people within the Chalcedonian church, including many monks, argued that "one will" was heretical for the reasons given above, namely that it denied Jesus' true humanity.

The thing to understand about these debates is that they weren't using "person" in our modern sense. When people accused each other of holding that Jesus was "two persons", as Nestorius was charged with saying, they didn't mean it in a psychological sense, that is, two centres of consciousness or two agents (or something along those lines). They understood "person" in the sense that Boethius put it, namely, a single substance of a rational nature. So to call Christ "two persons" would mean holding that he was two substances, that is, two distinct concrete entities. So when people sought to make it clear that they believed that Jesus was a single person, they were aiming to show that he was a single substance or concrete entity, not that he had mental unity of some kind. If you held that Christ was only a single substance or concrete entity, and that that substance was rational, then that was enough to say he was a single person. If that substance had more than one will, that was really neither here nor there as far as the number of persons went.

Now personally, I'm not even sure what it means to say that a person (or whatever) has two wills, if we understand "will" to mean a faculty or ability to choose; because it seems to me that a person either has such a faculty or doesn't, and talking about having two abilities to choose doesn't make much sense. One might as well say "He has the ability to swim - in fact he's such a great swimmer he has two abilities to swim." You can't multiply the same ability in the same person. A more charitable interpretation of the doctrine might be to say that Jesus had the ability to choose in a human way and to choose in a divine way, so rather than talking about two distinct faculties of choice we are perhaps talking about two distinct sets of actions he could choose, or something like that. That makes a bit more sense.

In modern philosophical theology, the idea of "two wills" isn't much used, but instead many writers have appealed to the idea of "two minds" or "two consciousnesses". On this view, Christ had a split mind, rather like someone with multiple personality disorder. One stream of consciousness was divine and the other was human. The divine stream was omniscient, but the human stream was not. Indeed, the human stream may not even have known that the divine stream was there (opening the possibility that although Jesus was God, he didn't know he was God - at least, he didn't know it in his human consciousness, although of course his divine consciousness knew it). This sort of thing is supposed to help preserve Jesus' true humanity and explain how, despite being God, he could still have a genuinely human consciousness, including limited knowledge. Thomas Morris and Richard Swinburne are probably the most prominent proponents. But others have argued that it really turns Jesus into two people - maybe not two persons in the Nestorian sense, but still it seems pretty weird.

Did common people call God "Father" then? I mean: would it have made sense, if ordinary guy said the same when enduring hard times. (I know the saying "son of God" has been mentioned few times in this thread, but don't remember if this has been).

I don't know if it was common for people to do that. But I do know that Honi the Circle Drawer (an itinerant miracle worker who lived some time before Jesus) also called God "Father", and was noted for the very intimate way he addressed him, sometimes verging on disrespect. He was famous for rain miracles: he would draw a circle on the ground, sit in it, and harangue God until it rained.

Incidentally, the common belief that Jesus used a child's word for "Father" - like "daddy" or similar - is discredited by scholars today. The word he used was vernacular but seems not to have been one associated with children.
 
It's my understanding that in the Hebrew text that the writers used the feminine gender when referring to the Holy Spirit. In the Greek text the gender was neutered. My question is, am I understanding the above correctly and if so, how or why do we now refer to the Holy Spirit using the male gender?
 
It's my understanding that in the Hebrew text that the writers used the feminine gender when referring to the Holy Spirit. In the Greek text the gender was neutered. My question is, am I understanding the above correctly and if so, how or why do we now refer to the Holy Spirit using the male gender?

Possibly because the grammatical gender of "spirit" in Old English, gast (which became ghost in modern English) was a masculine noun, much like the Greek word for spirit used here, πνεύμα (pneuma) was of the neuter gender, and the hebrew word female.
 
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