Fortress Europe
- Thread starter McMonkey
- Start date
Catfish
Emperor
No, I mean that pages are taking forever to load. CFC is becoming almost unusable at my end.
Thanks John. I don't expect a detailed report or anything, just an overall assesment of how the game pans out and any major errors. I will be doing a thorough playtest of my own but it is nice to have a second opinion from someone else, especially as our playing styles are bound to be different. I would appreciate whatever time you can find to play but please don't feel under any pressure. RL always comes first!
EDIT: Talking about RL, I have to go to work in about 20 mins so I will post you the files either tonight or tomorrow morning. A friend at work is also going to give it a go and he is a relative Civ2 novice so it will give me another point of view
EDIT: Talking about RL, I have to go to work in about 20 mins so I will post you the files either tonight or tomorrow morning. A friend at work is also going to give it a go and he is a relative Civ2 novice so it will give me another point of view
In my playtest I'm only up to the last week of November 1941 (turn 4) and already I have a real dilemma. Tobruk was isolated from the beginning but seemed to be holding Ok. I decided to build up a force between Axis Bardia and British Mersa Matruh and wait for the right conditions before attacking Bardia and relieving Tobruk. During the last AI turn the Africa Corps launched a strong attack on Tobruk and now there are only a couple of AA Batteries and some Engineers left defending the town. I do have a fairly large force (about 4 Armour, 8 Infantry, 1 Engineers and 2 Artillery backed by about 3 RAF Bombers) within striking distance of Bardia. I don't know if I should allow Tobruk to fall and retain this large force and await reinforcements or if I should try and take Bardia and open the road to Tobruk. If this fails I will lose Tobruk anyway and the road to Egypt will be open.
I have to go to work now so I have some time to ponder my next move. Your advise is welcome
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Hans99
Warlord
I would let Tobruk fall. I think it is no use to use your forces in a maybe futile assault. Just my opinion.
Thanks Civinator!
I have been thinking about this at work this evening and I have come to the same conclusion Hans99. There are consequences later in the game for holding or losing Tobruk (I have the advantage of knowing these) but on balance I think it would be reckless to risk my last army defending Egypt for the sake of one small town which I haven't invested too much in (a couple of rush built AA). Better to build up my forces in a good defensive position and strike back when the timing is right. Losing Tobruk will block off a possible future event which is good for the Allies and opens the possibility of a very bad one if the rest of the campaign does not go well. I won't spoil the scenario by going into detail
Historically Tobruk fell to the Axis only to be liberated by the Allies during Operation Crusader. It was then besieged again before the two battles of El Alamein and the Allied advance to Tunis, so I am doing no worse than the Allies did in RL!
I have been thinking about this at work this evening and I have come to the same conclusion Hans99. There are consequences later in the game for holding or losing Tobruk (I have the advantage of knowing these) but on balance I think it would be reckless to risk my last army defending Egypt for the sake of one small town which I haven't invested too much in (a couple of rush built AA). Better to build up my forces in a good defensive position and strike back when the timing is right. Losing Tobruk will block off a possible future event which is good for the Allies and opens the possibility of a very bad one if the rest of the campaign does not go well. I won't spoil the scenario by going into detail
Historically Tobruk fell to the Axis only to be liberated by the Allies during Operation Crusader. It was then besieged again before the two battles of El Alamein and the Allied advance to Tunis, so I am doing no worse than the Allies did in RL!
AGRICOLA
Warlord
TIME FOR SOME SCORCHED DESERT!!
Do as much damage to the Germans as you can around Tobruk . . . kill the assault gun, pillage the road (if you can) west of city, sell improvements and then, if possible, raze city and evacuate any remaining units by sea.
Meanwhile, it would help a lot if the road between Bardia and Mersa Matruh was chopped up. You would't happen to have a settler type or two in Egypt, would you? Just like there's more than one way to skin a cat, there's more than one way to pillage a road . . . even if there is no pillage option in the scen.
Do as much damage to the Germans as you can around Tobruk . . . kill the assault gun, pillage the road (if you can) west of city, sell improvements and then, if possible, raze city and evacuate any remaining units by sea.
Meanwhile, it would help a lot if the road between Bardia and Mersa Matruh was chopped up. You would't happen to have a settler type or two in Egypt, would you? Just like there's more than one way to skin a cat, there's more than one way to pillage a road . . . even if there is no pillage option in the scen.
clightning
Warlord
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Very nice screenshot!
Regarding to the war situation, no need for a harry retaliate for Tobruk , with such a force you can hold Suez Channel firmly, yet if it's not risky, just send RAF to take out the Kraunt's siege units while they are seperated in the field.
And...pillage wouldn't be necessary, because anyway the Kraunts need turns to reach a next target, and pillage can slow your step when you come back, right?
BTW an suggestion for the SCN: as this is a "Stackable" SCN, do you think it would be more interesting and challenging to make a house rule: Player can not place more than 5(or even 3) ground forces in out-city squares?
Just tested this in my modified WW79 and it feels good. You can't limit the AI, but they don't often concentrate more than 3 anyway.
Regarding to the war situation, no need for a harry retaliate for Tobruk , with such a force you can hold Suez Channel firmly, yet if it's not risky, just send RAF to take out the Kraunt's siege units while they are seperated in the field.
And...pillage wouldn't be necessary, because anyway the Kraunts need turns to reach a next target, and pillage can slow your step when you come back, right?
BTW an suggestion for the SCN: as this is a "Stackable" SCN, do you think it would be more interesting and challenging to make a house rule: Player can not place more than 5(or even 3) ground forces in out-city squares?
Just tested this in my modified WW79 and it feels good. You can't limit the AI, but they don't often concentrate more than 3 anyway.
@Agri
I agree with your assessment in theory but there are three problems:
1) I have no transport units in or near Tobruk to evacuate the remaining units.
2) Road pillaging is not permitted. This is not because it is unrealistic as such, but because it would hamper the AI too much and the AI isn't bright enough to have engineers ready to rebuild roads like the human player will. This would give the player and unfair advantage and I have spent so much time and effort trying to assist the AI to allow this. I have barred it in game and there is a house rule backing it up too!
3) There will be a house rule forbidding the sale of city walls (as there is one forbidding the removal of stackable terrain!) and an instruction to rebuild walls immediately if destroyed (either the next turn as they cost nothing or possibly using CivCity). This is to avoid cities being eradicated when caught in a battle.
Thanks for the plan though. It is a good reminder to double check my house rules
@clightning
I have a limited number of RAF aircraft in Libya/Egypt but I think precision strikes against priority targets, such as Mobile Artillery would be a good idea. I may lose a few aircraft to Luftwaffe fighters, but I should blunt the Africa Corps attack enough to hold Egypt and give myself more time to prepare a strong 8th Army to launch an successful campaign to push the DAK out of North Africa.
Interesting idea regarding the stack limits. This number of units could represent a division or brigade. A huge stack moving from square to square crushing everything in its path could be a bit dull. The downside of this is that the player would have to constantly keep track of the number of units so as not to break the house rule. I like to try and keep the house rules to a minimum where I can. Its a shame there isn't a parameter in the rules file allowing the player to set a limit like this as it would also be a good way to limit sea stacks and could make for more interesting tactical play on land. I will bear it in mind!
I agree with your assessment in theory but there are three problems:
1) I have no transport units in or near Tobruk to evacuate the remaining units.
2) Road pillaging is not permitted. This is not because it is unrealistic as such, but because it would hamper the AI too much and the AI isn't bright enough to have engineers ready to rebuild roads like the human player will. This would give the player and unfair advantage and I have spent so much time and effort trying to assist the AI to allow this. I have barred it in game and there is a house rule backing it up too!
3) There will be a house rule forbidding the sale of city walls (as there is one forbidding the removal of stackable terrain!) and an instruction to rebuild walls immediately if destroyed (either the next turn as they cost nothing or possibly using CivCity). This is to avoid cities being eradicated when caught in a battle.
Thanks for the plan though. It is a good reminder to double check my house rules
@clightning
I have a limited number of RAF aircraft in Libya/Egypt but I think precision strikes against priority targets, such as Mobile Artillery would be a good idea. I may lose a few aircraft to Luftwaffe fighters, but I should blunt the Africa Corps attack enough to hold Egypt and give myself more time to prepare a strong 8th Army to launch an successful campaign to push the DAK out of North Africa.
Interesting idea regarding the stack limits. This number of units could represent a division or brigade. A huge stack moving from square to square crushing everything in its path could be a bit dull. The downside of this is that the player would have to constantly keep track of the number of units so as not to break the house rule. I like to try and keep the house rules to a minimum where I can. Its a shame there isn't a parameter in the rules file allowing the player to set a limit like this as it would also be a good way to limit sea stacks and could make for more interesting tactical play on land. I will bear it in mind!
clightning
Warlord
- Joined
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Oh if there is a strong Luftwaffe fighters presence, then it is some dilemma. I don't know your Flak A/D, however if they have a somewhat useful D against Tanks, your air strike to take out Mobile Artillery should be vital, because it may allow some chance for the desprate Flaks to hold the city.
If Flak is not a meaningful ground defender, then it may be better to just keep the RAF now. If the Mobile Artillerys are to further threat you, they have to come to Mersa, slowly, then you will have better chance to take them out.
Regarding stack limits: I also think it can also apply to air forces, but not to limit the number of aircrafts operating in air over a square, but to limit the number that an air field or city can hold.
You can use the Whole 8th Army Air and RAF Bomber Command to bomb a single enemy town, but you can't deploy and prepare them all in a single town. Thus it may also affect the number operational over the enemy town.
BTW I personally find it not very trouble to obey a 3-unit limit in WW79, as 3 is easy to count, and WW79 is not large scale as well.
If Flak is not a meaningful ground defender, then it may be better to just keep the RAF now. If the Mobile Artillerys are to further threat you, they have to come to Mersa, slowly, then you will have better chance to take them out.
Regarding stack limits: I also think it can also apply to air forces, but not to limit the number of aircrafts operating in air over a square, but to limit the number that an air field or city can hold.
You can use the Whole 8th Army Air and RAF Bomber Command to bomb a single enemy town, but you can't deploy and prepare them all in a single town. Thus it may also affect the number operational over the enemy town.
BTW I personally find it not very trouble to obey a 3-unit limit in WW79, as 3 is easy to count
, and WW79 is not large scale as well.
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I'm very much looking forward to playing this 
I haven't had much of a chance yet, but need to blow off some steam tonight. I plan on researching War Bonds first to get some sort of fighter cover over the desert. Hopefully bombing raids and lend lease will allow me to both keep my economy afloat AND keep Malta supplied.
Like you, I am fine with abandoning Tobruk. I plan on taking up defensive positions on the hills SE of Bardia and holding until I have built up a sufficient force to drive across Africa. I don't want to have to deal with the historic see-saw
I plan on dropping the production of battleships in the Atlantic as they are pretty much useless with the fortification terrain being all around Europe. I'll concentrate on destroyers (with a few cruisers built on the first turn to not waste shields).
I haven't had much of a chance yet, but need to blow off some steam tonight. I plan on researching War Bonds first to get some sort of fighter cover over the desert. Hopefully bombing raids and lend lease will allow me to both keep my economy afloat AND keep Malta supplied.
Like you, I am fine with abandoning Tobruk. I plan on taking up defensive positions on the hills SE of Bardia and holding until I have built up a sufficient force to drive across Africa. I don't want to have to deal with the historic see-saw
I plan on dropping the production of battleships in the Atlantic as they are pretty much useless with the fortification terrain being all around Europe. I'll concentrate on destroyers (with a few cruisers built on the first turn to not waste shields).
Sounds like a solid plan John. I'm not sure how much to give away in the Read Me, but losing Tobruk will mean the Allies lose out on a historically alternative bonus later in the game. They can still lose Tobruk and win the war though, that's what I have opted for in my game too.
In my test I have found a few things that need changing, but nothing major and it all seems to be working very well. One thing that dose frustrate me is the AI's inability to focus its attacks. In Russia the Axis could easily have captured several Russian cites but when they are virtually empty it decides to fritter them away attacking random units dotted about the map. Still, this shouldn't effect the Allies campaign so no real issue there as the Strongpoints keep the action in the east running along historical lines. In my test I have increased the attack of the Fleet Air Arm from 10 to 14, feel free to do the same. I am wondering what to do about Battleships. I think they need better defence stats as they are too easy for U-Boats to sink, but historically they were not used as escort vessels so I may look at giving them the Ignore Impassable flag and allowing them to attack cities. I will have to test this out.
I hope Fortress Europe provides you with a fun diversion, just keep an eye on the clock
In my test I have found a few things that need changing, but nothing major and it all seems to be working very well. One thing that dose frustrate me is the AI's inability to focus its attacks. In Russia the Axis could easily have captured several Russian cites but when they are virtually empty it decides to fritter them away attacking random units dotted about the map. Still, this shouldn't effect the Allies campaign so no real issue there as the Strongpoints keep the action in the east running along historical lines. In my test I have increased the attack of the Fleet Air Arm from 10 to 14, feel free to do the same. I am wondering what to do about Battleships. I think they need better defence stats as they are too easy for U-Boats to sink, but historically they were not used as escort vessels so I may look at giving them the Ignore Impassable flag and allowing them to attack cities. I will have to test this out.
I hope Fortress Europe provides you with a fun diversion, just keep an eye on the clock
Something very odd has happened in my playtest. Suddenly in turn 10 two Strongpoints (invincible defence units) have appeared in Bardia. At first I though I had made a really stupid error, but when I check turns 1-9 they are not there. The AI shouldn't be able to build them as the 'tribe may build' mask is set to 0. There are deffinately no events for their creation either. I will try and change the prerequisites to no,no instead of nil,nil.
I have taken a look and it does appear that Kavalla, Salonika and Iraklion are missing their strongpoints. Checking the other saves it appears that the AI is re-homing and teleporting them about willy nilly
Any ideas on how I can stop this as it is potentially a game breaker 
I am currently a hairs width from being apoplectic with rage!!!
I have taken a look and it does appear that Kavalla, Salonika and Iraklion are missing their strongpoints. Checking the other saves it appears that the AI is re-homing and teleporting them about willy nilly
Any ideas on how I can stop this as it is potentially a game breaker I am currently a hairs width from being apoplectic with rage!!!
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Something very odd has happened in my playtest. Suddenly in turn 10 two Strongpoints (invincible defence units) have appeared in Bardia. At first I though I had made a really stupid error, but when I check turns 1-9 they are not there. The AI shouldn't be able to build them as the 'tribe may build' mask is set to 0. There are deffinately no events for their creation either. I will try and change the prerequisites to no,no instead of nil,nil.
I have taken a look and it does appear that Kavalla, Salonika and Iraklion are missing their strongpoints. Checking the other saves it appears that the AI is re-homing and teleporting them about willy nilly
I do not understand why they are doing this, and hope that someone else can give a solid answer. If there is no way to stop them, you can at least solve this by putting the bunkers outside of the city (might have to double up a few).
Bunker ----------- Bunker
---------City-----------
Bunker------------ Bunker
The AI is annoying, eh?
Edit - Just an idea - but what about turning them into air units that can't move?
I will have to experiment with various settings to try and get round this (IE making them air units, making them non-disbandable etc...). If that doesn't work I may have to place these units outside of cities or re-think the whole method. It did seem a bit too good to be true. What can you do when the AI does whatever it damn well pleases?
This is a real kick in the teeth as the game was playing very well up to this point. Whatever happens I will find a solution even if it means doing something with impassible terrain and a rules change during the game that allows certain units to ignore it. Not as good a solution as Strongpoints but if it works for the Eastern Front and the Atlantic Wall I may get away with it. I think the Allied campaign in the Mediterranean should work fine without the use of Strongpoints. That was just a bonus. I do think they are central to many events in the Northern European campaign though.
I think I will have to leave it tonight as I'm getting a bit tired and fed up with the situation. I'm sure it will look better in the morning! Hopefully by just tweaking the rules file I can somehow prevent the AI re-homing units. I'm not sure how to prevent them teleporting them between cities though
This is a real kick in the teeth as the game was playing very well up to this point. Whatever happens I will find a solution even if it means doing something with impassible terrain and a rules change during the game that allows certain units to ignore it. Not as good a solution as Strongpoints but if it works for the Eastern Front and the Atlantic Wall I may get away with it. I think the Allied campaign in the Mediterranean should work fine without the use of Strongpoints. That was just a bonus. I do think they are central to many events in the Northern European campaign though.
I think I will have to leave it tonight as I'm getting a bit tired and fed up with the situation. I'm sure it will look better in the morning! Hopefully by just tweaking the rules file I can somehow prevent the AI re-homing units. I'm not sure how to prevent them teleporting them between cities though
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Well, I'm currently running my test with them as air units, if you want to try something else to see if we can sort this out.
Try looking at Nemo's Second Front to see what he did...
Just remember, the "unique character" of our AI is what keeps designing "fun!"
Try looking at Nemo's Second Front to see what he did...
Just remember, the "unique character" of our AI is what keeps designing "fun!"
I have just figured out the problem, thanks for the clue John. Its so simple I could kick myself but I'm very releaved the scanario isn't buggered
The AI was transporting the bunkers in ships. I just caught sight of one at sea and the light bulb above my head lit up! Setting them as immobile air units should solve this problem as the AI has no carriers. I had not thought that even though the Strongpoints are immobile they can be transported by sea.
I will need to go back a few turns to find an unaffected save so I can continue my playtest but this is a small price to pay. If you make the changes to your rules file things should run fine. It may mean starting over though, sorry!
Your sincerely
One relieved McMonkey
EDIT 1: Cross post. It looks like you were on to this one a bit quicker than me JP!
EDIT 2: It appears a total of 18 Strongpoints had gone walkabout. All put right now. On with the playtest tomorrow morning!
EDIT 3: Also, change all wonders expiries to nil in the rules file. Something I overlooked!
The AI was transporting the bunkers in ships. I just caught sight of one at sea and the light bulb above my head lit up! Setting them as immobile air units should solve this problem as the AI has no carriers. I had not thought that even though the Strongpoints are immobile they can be transported by sea.
I will need to go back a few turns to find an unaffected save so I can continue my playtest but this is a small price to pay. If you make the changes to your rules file things should run fine. It may mean starting over though, sorry!
Your sincerely
One relieved McMonkey
EDIT 1: Cross post. It looks like you were on to this one a bit quicker than me JP!
EDIT 2: It appears a total of 18 Strongpoints had gone walkabout. All put right now. On with the playtest tomorrow morning!
EDIT 3: Also, change all wonders expiries to nil in the rules file. Something I overlooked!
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