Snoopy/Dale unofficial patch

Out of the bug-fix that was put in (4 lines worth) this is the line which affects Europe's prices:

kPlayerEurope.changeYieldTradedTotal(eYield, iLoss);

Would people like that removed? The bug-fix will still retain the record of the trade for the owner of the warehouse and the game as a whole (both of which are needed for demographics and graphs).

Does that settle the dispute?

PS: benfp yours has been the most proper explanation. Everyone else has "demanded" the whole big-fix removed because it is not taxed (which is false it IS taxed) and that it is smuggling (which is also completely false). I still maintain that it has the possibility of being exploited as it won't affect Europe's prices, thus rendering the basic economic principle of supply-demand, which this game operates on, completely defunct. Which is obviously against the goal of this game's economic component.
 
Dale said:
Out of the bug-fix that was put in (4 lines worth) this is the line which affects Europe's prices:

kPlayerEurope.changeYieldTradedTotal(eYield, iLoss);

Would people like that removed? The bug-fix will still retain the record of the trade for the owner of the warehouse and the game as a whole (both of which are needed for demographics and graphs).
Click to expand...

I really have no feeling one way or the other... however there is a part of me that wonders if counting trades via the warehouse extension as "half" a trade for purposes of dropping prices might be a good compromise between the two positions. It would still count towards trade, but would have less of an effect on the growth of a civ's economy.

Not certain if this is doable or even balanced, but it seems to me there might be a middle ground to be found between the two positions.
 
The warehouse overflow is so built into the game that if you fiddle with it your going to break the game unless you compensate and rebalance
I think its right that European prices should colapse, as they did in the old game, however in the old col the natives could trade properly for the entire game and in this they cant

How much modding do you want to do ?

Disclaimer: I have never played this mod so i migth be completely wrong. With all respect to modders who often do great work, in general i dont beleive in mods. Especially when Firaxis should be fixing this stuff not the community
 
Whatever you do, please do not remove this fix. If nothing else, you could make a GlobleDefine that would turn this fix off, that way the fix can be there and we can also shut up all those that think this fix some how breaks the game.
 
Jeckel said:
Whatever you do, please do not remove this fix. If nothing else, you could make a GlobleDefine that would turn this fix off, that way the fix can be there and we can also shut up all those that think this fix some how breaks the game.
Click to expand...

Don't worry, I strongly support the fix as it was implemented (tagging them against Europe for price changes). I'm still not convinced to make any changes anyways because of the HUGE Col1-customhouse-size exploit allowing you to avoid the entire taxation system. :)
 
Dale said:
Does that settle the dispute?

PS: benfp yours has been the most proper explanation. Everyone else has "demanded" the whole big-fix removed because it is not taxed (which is false it IS taxed) and that it is smuggling (which is also completely false). I still maintain that it has the possibility of being exploited as it won't affect Europe's prices, thus rendering the basic economic principle of supply-demand, which this game operates on, completely defunct. Which is obviously against the goal of this game's economic component.
Click to expand...

Dale, first after re-reading my message, I'd like to apologize for being a bit harsher than I should have and I'd also like to thank you for all the tedious work you did to support this game since it's been released.

Now I'm gonna break my word and add a bit more precisions about what I did mean on this "warehouse overflow bug". As a player, I don't really care whether it's being kept or removed. In fact, what I care about is to preserve my ability to grow my empire throughout the game. The "warehouse overflow bug" is the way to do it ATM.
So considering it gets fixed, Europe should also consummate resources and have a price based on their current stock of a given resources ala native. (This may cost more computer resources and may also need some additional software development).
 
And isn't a big-fix, but a balance-fix. Which is outside the scope of this patch. :)
 
I just finished my first game using this mod, spanish beat me to independance 10 turns after my DoI, Im an over-doer, next time Ill cut to the chase a bit - keep up the good work! :)
 
Okay this is what I'm implementing for the warehouse expansion request:

1. New tag in Civ4BuildingInfos.xml bImpactEuropePrices which determines if this buildings overflow sell is counted against Europe.
2. Tag added to all buildings with default set that warehouse expansion DOES impact Europe prices.
3. At time of city yield overflow, a check is run against all buildings in the city. Returns true if buildings impact Europe prices, and false if they don't.

This should keep all parties happy, as anyone who wants to change warehouse expansion to avoid impacting Europe's prices can go into the XML and set this tag to 0 (zero) for warehouse expansion. :)

This change will be in the next version. I've yet to test the change properly, so won't release it for a few days.
 
The biggest exploit with vanilla warehouse isnt that tax dont change. The biggest exploit is that prices dont change. Try this in your next vanilla ulimited growth session: Concentrate on silver. Mine and work every mountain you can. Try to get expert silver miner if the mountain is next to river. Converted native if not. Hoard money and, once you can afford it, buy 4 galleons and load them with silver that you buy from Europe. Best if you're not Dutch. Price of silver will start going up and in a few turns the king will raise tax 1-5%. 20 turns later, you unload your silver at some warehouse. The price has more than doubled.You get your "investment" and then some.
 
^^^^ EXACTLY. This is why warehouse sales must be linked to Europe.
 
Oh wow, I must've missed somewhere that the prices don't change, I thought the entire bug was that your tax rate never went up.
If this is the case, it takes the bottom right out of the smuggling argument because regardless of whether you're sneaking the goods past the king's bean-counters, you're sure as hell not sneaking them past the laws of supply and demand.
 
The bug has always been that this form of trade was not counted by the game's counters, for you, for Europe or for the game as a whole. This has wide-ranging effects, such as not showing in demographics, not showing on power graphs, and not impacting taxes and prices.
 
Here is something that "could be" classified as bug.

As known, asking king for units increases REF size, as if adding LB equal to the unit price you pay to the king (which is HUGE, but this post is not about balance).

What seems to be buggy is that REF increase itself only happens if you produce any bells during that turn. If not, only after you get any bell production those REF increases for buying units from king will happen.

For example, if you buy 2 veterans and 2 cannons before producing any bells that would be around 750+900+250+300=2100 LB for REF increase. Still, if you don't produce any bells, REF will stay the same. But, the moment you put single +3LB statesmen in your town hall, all those 2100LB will be cashed in, and for next several turns you'll get "REF increased" messages, until all those 2100LB are "spent".

Shouldn't REF increases from buying units from king happen always, and not only during turns you produce bells? That way, at least player will know that buying units from king has big penalty and won't get big nasty surprise only after deciding to add statesmen.
 
Dale said:
^^^^ EXACTLY. This is why warehouse sales must be linked to Europe.
Click to expand...

you can do that whithout wharehouse extension, buy/build 5 galleon, buy 30 silvers's cargo, sell them 10-20 turns after, rebuy silvers 10-20 turns after


at least the wharhouse extension allow you to still make some gold even if you have 50+ colonies, the native will run out of cash earlier, and you'll produce more than if you had few colonies (with this your income drop x time as fast as you produce x time more, there would be no meaning to build more than one factory)
 
pajeg said:
you can do that whithout wharehouse extension, buy/build 5 galleon, buy 30 silvers's cargo, sell them 10-20 turns after, rebuy silvers 10-20 turns after
Click to expand...

Yes but, meanwhile these 20 turns (actually they are many more in normal speed to have it's price, say, doubled) you are not counting on a huge amount of cash for empire growth and defense; here, I believe, is where the balance comes along.

pajeg said:
.......with this your income drop x time as fast as you produce x time more, there would be no meaning to build more than one factory)
Click to expand...

As there is almost never real purpose in building more than one, with exception maybe of an Arsenal. I see this as a quicker game than the former col and much quicker than a civ game. You don't have the time to develop a huge empire as the game is. You can proliferate in a lot of terrain, yes, but won't be huge in population and specially infrastructure. It is a different game as the one many have expected (not to take away some true bugs it does have), thus such disappointment. Nevertheless it is a nice, smaller, enjoyable game.
 
nacc said:
The biggest exploit is that prices dont change.
Click to expand...

Are we sure about this? This is something I believe Dale can easily notice in the code, as it must be a rocking formula.
Though there are some considerations to justify this matter I am not fond of it. Still, not sure it should cause an imbalance in the game.
 
I have now spent some time reading this thread. And as one sholud be nice to others I can't write exactly what I think of some people posting here.
But I can write this:
Why are you complaining about Dale's excellent work?!?!?!?!?
You have absolutley no right to complain over this "patch" other that you self are to blaim if you don't like the "changes" in the "patch". How come? Becauce Dale has never ever orderd you to use his "patch". He hasn't held a gun to your head etc. etc.

I am no expert in coding phyton, xml, c++ and so on but if I would lik eto use Dale's "patch" and there would be something I didn't like I would find a way to change it or remove it. But in a Bug-fix patch there seldom are things you want to remove, in a balance patch however I can understand if people would like to remove things(fixes for exploits and its counterparts)

So stop complaining about something you don't have right to complain about and start giving Dale credit and constructive feedback instead.

You are allowed to complain about my English spelling and grammar since English isn't my first language
 
IMHO a patch is a program that fixes bugs, just that. When you change things that are a matter of opinion you should give to your mod another name.

You think that treasure size is a bug. You think that warehouse overflow is a bug. How do you know that Dale? Maybe the makers of the game intended it that way. Do you think that Firaxis is a bunch of amatuers?
 
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