Arrested Development: Bizarre post-G&K behavior

AI has (about) the same "behavior" on any difficulty level. The problem is the AI is trying to "rush you" and doesn't have the "ass to push that truck up that hill" because you're playing a difficulty too easy for you and it doesn't have the amount of early resource it "needs".

If you want to see the AI rush effectively on prince build no more military than your starting warrior and a scout. Otherwise, play a king game, or emperor if you can solidly fend off 6 melees and a few archers.
I do not want the AI to rush effectively. In terms of the attack force, it wasn't an unsensible rush. What made the rush stupid was the 20-tile hike for the "coveted" land of a civ that is only their neighbor in the most relativistic sense. I don't see how playing on a higher difficulty level will change that. They'll just make a stronger, faster stupid move. This is simply behavior that needs to fixed through programming.

However, this thread is primarily about the tendency of post-G&K civ's to arrest their expansion for seemingly no good reason. I will try to post a screenshot so you guys can see that Russia could have easily have a dozen cities by now in the space it has. And since I'm not playing with random personalities, Catherine should be expanding. That's her personality.

I've definitely seen the AI get thrown for a loop when a Barbarian takes its unescorted settler. Funny thing was, I watched the Barb brute escort the settler back to the barb camp. If the barbs are smart enough to escort settlers, why isn't the civilization leader?
This is another bizarre AI behavior. If a barbarian is near your cities, go exterminate it and reclaim your people. How hard is that?

Building armies isn't free. When an army shows up at your door, it pretty much explains what the AI was doing instead of settling.

Since the decision to build or steal is the product of algorithms at war, the AI will make the wrong choice sometimes... Programming it to 'never covet or attack more than X tiles away' would be smart but would also scrap the whole metaphor of conquest (vs border dispute). Like a lot of AI behavior, it works alright when you up the difficulty.
If it takes an army over twenty turns to arrive my door, that means they've had 20+ turns to do other things. As stated, I played into the 1600's and Russia still never bothered to settle another city. Rather, she simply parades a worthless half-dozen ancient-era units around my borders.

Again, I don't see the argument for how things will "work alright" if I up the difficulty. A rush isn't a rush if you can't execute it quickly. Units don't cover vast distances faster at higher difficulties.

True, civ's shouldn't abandon the idea of long-distance conquests. But that's the sort of goal a civ should undertake once it has an established power base. It should make the best use of its current area, turning it into the best production center possible, before it starts sending out long-distance conquest expedition. As an opening move for a single city, that's dicey at best.

And, more to the point of the original topic, failing in that goal seems to be part and parcel of what caused their expansion to arrest.
 
Is there a chance that instead of stunted growth, that the AI is attempting to "go tall"?
That would be a radical personality shift for Catherine, predicated by no condition that I can see. Russia will happily settle mediocre territory simply for the sake of settling.

And, understand, that's exactly what I see Russia do in some games, even those where she has nearby neighbors to contend with. It's only in certain scenarios where civ's seem to abandon any attempt at growth. Incidentally, on this very same map, Japan is expanding like kudzu, and I had to block his attempt to plop a settler right outside the border of one of my cities.

I think I will try to do something to give her a jump-start. The best thing I can think to do is go down and settle a city near her. In a previous game, Attila failed his early rush and would not expand beyond his first city for the entire game, until I finally decided to start using up that territory he wasn't claiming some time in early industrial era. Then he started making settlers like mad.

If you guys can think of anything else to try, please suggest it.
 
I've definitely seen the AI get thrown for a loop when a Barbarian takes its unescorted settler. Funny thing was, I watched the Barb brute escort the settler back to the barb camp. If the barbs are smart enough to escort settlers, why isn't the civilization leader

Lol had this happen to Austria in one of my games. I swear i saw 5 settlers being escorted by the barbs, all of which became workers for my sweedish cause!
 
I think I will try to do something to give her a jump-start. The best thing I can think to do is go down and settle a city near her. In a previous game, Attila failed his early rush and would not expand beyond his first city for the entire game, until I finally decided to start using up that territory he wasn't claiming some time in early industrial era. Then he started making settlers like mad.

If you guys can think of anything else to try, please suggest it.

I've played a couple G&K games and both contained empires that stopped after 2 or 3 cities in the ancient era. I'm talking entire continents that are empty. That would happen rarely in vanilla but it was usually offset by other empires spamming every empty space. Now they all just....chill.

I've thought about grabbing land in empty continents, but I'm afraid of getting the 'i covet your lands' diplo hit. Especially when the continents contain the two or three cities of one of my allies.:(
 
Press F12 on Steam and upload to Steam?

You do realise this will cause him to take a SS of a Quickload (and likely lose several turns of play)?

This is why you change the Steam SS key to something other than the default F12; Civ5 uses the F12 key.
 
However, this thread is primarily about the tendency of post-G&K civ's to arrest their expansion for seemingly no good reason. I will try to post a screenshot so you guys can see that Russia could have easily have a dozen cities by now in the space it has. And since I'm not playing with random personalities, Catherine should be expanding. That's her personality.


This is another bizarre AI behavior. If a barbarian is near your cities, go exterminate it and reclaim your people. How hard is that?
...
Again, I don't see the argument for how things will "work alright" if I up the difficulty. A rush isn't a rush if you can't execute it quickly. Units don't cover vast distances faster at higher difficulties.

True, civ's shouldn't abandon the idea of long-distance conquests. But that's the sort of goal a civ should undertake once it has an established power base. It should make the best use of its current area, turning it into the best production center possible, before it starts sending out long-distance conquest expedition. As an opening move for a single city, that's dicey at best.

Oooooh. Sorry, kind of misread your point. Not settling until 1950 is definitely weird.

However, the reason I responded more to the question of the intelligence of long-trek conquests early game, is because the AI was doin that in my games back in Vanilla. In a Marathon game I played shortly before G&K it was how the Ottomans opened, taking a mostly worthless third city from Genghis that was fifteen rough tiles away from them. then coming for my third city, another fifteen flat tiles away. Meanwhile, only one city of their own.

Then, they did the same thing in a G&K game. This time the Mayan city they long-distance nabbed was right next to me so I took it from its new owners. Suleiman founded two cities promptly afterward, but stalled until Industrial. So, behavior confirmed, sort of.

I get what you mean now about much longer stasis. The conquest aspect always was what it is, as far as I can see.
 
I've thought about grabbing land in empty continents, but I'm afraid of getting the 'i covet your lands' diplo hit. Especially when the continents contain the two or three cities of one of my allies.:(
You'd be right to be concerned. They'd resent you occupying the lands that they more-or-less forfeited.
 
i agree the AI is less prone to expansion. in my current game (on immortal) the Mayans have been trying to OCC it, and I commonly see civs with only 2-3 cities well into the late game.

I saw this a lot during my first few games on immortal and below, but the other day I started an immortal/continents/standard/standard game and the Mongols AND Mayans (on different continents) both went crazy. I saw the mongols take out Tyre on turn 30 or so. Soon after they DOW'd the celts and Netherlands within 10 turns of each other. They eventually wiped out Netherlands, though I got the Celts 2 main cities at least. I'm going to launch on turn 320 or so, and I'm just happy to win this one. The mongols and Mayans are both about 50% ahead of me in score.
 
i have to say playing carthage on archipelago really takes advantage of this. In my game the AI left all sorts of good sites unoccupied...with free harbors its much, much easier to get new cities up & running faster if you just settle the spots with a lot of fish. I have cities all over the map...4 separate fleets to defend them all. Every civ DOWd me when they realized i had the map covered, but it was too late...I destroyed/captured all their fleets and got insane peace deals from ALL of them. Now just have to decide which way to win.
 
I saw this a lot during my first few games on immortal and below, but the other day I started an immortal/continents/standard/standard game and the Mongols AND Mayans (on different continents) both went crazy. I saw the mongols take out Tyre on turn 30 or so. Soon after they DOW'd the celts and Netherlands within 10 turns of each other. They eventually wiped out Netherlands, though I got the Celts 2 main cities at least. I'm going to launch on turn 320 or so, and I'm just happy to win this one. The mongols and Mayans are both about 50% ahead of me in score.
Yeah, that's the real issue here. The ICS madness isn't gone. It happens, and it's not a civ-specific personality trait. It's just that something seems to be getting the civ's "stuck". The most common element seems to have to do with failing an early rush, and not knowing how to move on from it, but it might be something more subtle, like barbarian interference.

i have to say playing carthage on archipelago really takes advantage of this. In my game the AI left all sorts of good sites unoccupied...with free harbors its much, much easier to get new cities up & running faster if you just settle the spots with a lot of fish. I have cities all over the map...4 separate fleets to defend them all. Every civ DOWd me when they realized i had the map covered, but it was too late...I destroyed/captured all their fleets and got insane peace deals from ALL of them. Now just have to decide which way to win.
I played Songhai on a random archipeligo map. My random opponents? Carthage, England, and Ottomans. Should've been the fight of my life trying to contend with these three naval civ's, but instead the Ottomans sat off by itself and went OCC. England and Carthage started very close to each other, and both settled three cities each in rapid succession, but then stopped for the rest of the game once they DoW'ed each other. Had whole map to myself, and eventually gave up from boredom after crushing England (she was chain-building wonders and sending missionaries all over the place, so she had it coming). Maybe I should load it back up and take their capitals.
 
That's a good point. It seems like they all pick Tradition now. I've still seen the usual suspects, like Washington, spamming cities, but even those civs take a few policies in Tradition.
I think it would be very relevant to know what Policy Branch Catherine chose in that game.

Generally it will be the Liberty AI's that spam cities. Most of the time, the Honor and Tradition pickers will have a lot fewer cities. Honor civs also tend to be more aggressive / warmongering (but not always).
 
I think it would be very relevant to know what Policy Branch Catherine chose in that game.

Generally it will be the Liberty AI's that spam cities. Most of the time, the Honor and Tradition pickers will have a lot fewer cities. Honor civs also tend to be more aggressive / warmongering (but not always).
Liberty 5
Honor 5
Patronage 2

Japan, OTOH, has Tradition 5 and has grown wide, is even doing that ICS thing where they settle little indefensible cities far away from their empire and far too close to people who don't like them.
 
Liberty 5
Honor 5
Patronage 2

Japan, OTOH, has Tradition 5 and has grown wide, is even doing that ICS thing where they settle little indefensible cities far away from their empire and far too close to people who don't like them.

As the fish say: It's a trap!
 
I finished the game. Russia eventually expanded to a third city. Japan and Ethiopia must've gotten sick of waiting because they moved into her primo territory and choked her off. Denmark topped out at five, China at three as well. I finished the game with thirty cities and change.

And once again, Alexander had a primo island all to himself.
 
I finished the game. Russia eventually expanded to a third city. Japan and Ethiopia must've gotten sick of waiting because they moved into her primo territory and choked her off. Denmark topped out at five, China at three as well. I finished the game with thirty cities and change.

And once again, Alexander had a primo island all to himself.

All the civs you listed have run some very big empires throughout my many playthroughs.

It's possible you lucked out and the leaders rolled tall and stuck to a few cities.

As I've said in many posts before, Civ starts are highly variable. Early game can be a cakewalk or a nightmare. Depending on Civ mix, who is where and the grand strategy each civ is following. Sometimes, Civs cancel each other out. ie: bunch of warmongers starting close will end up tiring themselves out fighting while the builders push ahead.

But imagine a scenario where you're going for a culture win and find yourself sandwhiched between two warmongers. Completely different game and peaceful game could be out of the question if I can't find civs to fight both of them.

Play a few more games and enjoy the variety. Lots to be had.
 
All the civs you listed have run some very big empires throughout my many playthroughs.

It's possible you lucked out and the leaders rolled tall and stuck to a few cities.

As I've said in many posts before, Civ starts are highly variable. Early game can be a cakewalk or a nightmare. Depending on Civ mix, who is where and the grand strategy each civ is following. Sometimes, Civs cancel each other out. ie: bunch of warmongers starting close will end up tiring themselves out fighting while the builders push ahead.

But imagine a scenario where you're going for a culture win and find yourself sandwhiched between two warmongers. Completely different game and peaceful game could be out of the question if I can't find civs to fight both of them.

Play a few more games and enjoy the variety. Lots to be had.
I very much doubt it's simply a random roll that's resulting in this behavior. Russia was not going tall. If she were, she would not have been constantly plotting and scheming to attack other civ's. That is the hallmark of an expansionist. Russia and several other civ's were locked into a mode of behavior that doomed them.

I enjoy variety, and I certainly don't like games where every civ is doing ICS. However, it makes no sense to have lush resources within easy, indisputed reach and to not make an effort to grab them up. It makes even less sense to be small, tall, and belligernt: if you don't want to expand, you don't want to conquer. Instead, you want friends with whom you can strike deals for much-needed research and luxuries.

I've had people state repeatedly in this thread that there's essentially I should play at least Emperor difficulty for a challenging game. How about instead help discover the flaws in the base game so that we don't have to make up by granting the AI a bunch of artificial advantages?
 
Some other people commented that they think that one reason why civs fail to grow is that they had a failed early rush or attack.

In the game I'm currently playing, I think this is what happened. Both Songhai and Sweden started fairly close to city stated that they decided to fight early game. They both attacked the CS's when they had only settled their own capital. Their (multilple) early game invasions all failed.

Eventually, Songhai settled one other city and Sweden settled two more, but both stopped. I ended up conquering Persia who was on the other side of the same continent from Sweden and giving their 3 cities to Sweden. Sweden still didn't expand after that.

Both Songhai and Sweden are surrounded by prime land that is empty and FILLED with resources and lux, but do nothing. Come to think of it, Persia hit 3 cities and stopped growing as well, but never invaded a CS.

Guess I just destroyed the whole point of this post with that last sentence. I don't know what's going on with this failing to grow thing.
 
I don't think you destroyed the point.

I suspect that what's happening is that the AI makes plans to expand through conquest rather than settling, and some of G&K's changes to AI behavior is making the AI fail to make the appropriate decision to switch back from conquest to settling. They might never DoW, but they simply don't stop fixating on conquest. Since they aren't settling, they're falling behind in the things that conquest civ's need to remain dangerous: science and production. And if they don't want to issue DoF's, then they can't form research agreements. In essence, they can't perform the balancing act required of a militant civ.
 
I don't you destroyed the point.

I suspect that what's happening is that the AI makes plans to expand through conquest rather than settling, and some of G&K's changes to AI behavior is making the AI fail to make the appropriate decision to switch back from conquest to settling.

You're probably right. Compounding the problem in my situation is the fact that the AI ALWAYS puppets conquered cities, so it doesn't directly control them and use them toward their winning plan.

Sweden did this when I gave them Persia's cities...it puppeted them and they just sit there. At least he improved the hexes around them. I've also been reading that they don't always do this post-G&K.
 
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