The Cold War what if thread

RedRalph

RedRalph

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This is a thread to keep all the cold war what ifs together, as otherwise I'll just clog up the forum with my various scenarios. If anyone else feels like pitching in with an idea feel free.

First one.

In early 1984, the USSR, still shocked form the scare of Able Archer 83, decides its a matter of time before Reagan attacks, in all probability with nuclear weapons. for the purposes of this thread, Yuri Andropov's undergoes a big recovery in December 1983 and he is soon back in the Kremlin running things in full health. Pushed by Viktor Grishin and other Kremlin hardliners, the USSR decides to invade western Europe while the strategic balance is still in their favour. In June of 1984, the Red Army invades through the North German plain, the Fulda gap, Norway and Greece. (If you dont consider this set-up credible, fair enough, but the thread is not really to discuss it, its more to see what might have happened as a consequence)

What happens?
 
problem, how did the Russians troop get to West Germany? In what time-span? you can't push a full scale invasion without some preparation, you leave a gap of 6 months, what happens in these 6 months?
 
philippe said:
problem, how did the Russians troop get to West Germany? In what time-span? you can't push a full scale invasion without some preparation, you leave a gap of 6 months, what happens in these 6 months?
Click to expand...

I'm asking what happens as soon as the cross the border? Does NATO use tactical nuclear weapons to repulse them? can NATO defend western europe with conventional weapons (unlikely)? does the Red Army reach the Atlantic within weeks? does the US initiate a full scale nuclear war?
 
The Germans do what they do best: suicidal; defence in depth. A bit Red Storm Rising, but I don't doubt the German army would have pressed any and all troops into defense, armed with, if necesssary, LAWs, Karl Gusstafs and recolless rifles. Likely the Germans would have taken appalling casualties, but giving enough time for American tanks and such to mobilise and hit the Soviets.
 
nonconformist said:
The Germans do what they do best: suicidal; defence in depth. A bit Red Storm Rising, but I don't doubt the German army would have pressed any and all troops into defense, armed with, if necesssary, LAWs, Karl Gusstafs and recolless rifles. Likely the Germans would have taken appalling casualties, but giving enough time for American tanks and such to mobilise and hit the Soviets.
Click to expand...

so you think NATO could defend Germany? in all the war games they had they couldnt, and had to use tactical nukes... the Red Army had a gigantic conventional advantage. In any case, you think it would stay conventional for a decent amount of time? I do too, buit a lot think it would have been nuclear form the out
 
i don't know hiw the battle plans were for in the '80s but I think the only chance it would stay a conventional war is if the Russians are stopped at the Rhine. Once they got over there, countries like france will no doubtily fire off their nukes.
 
RedRalphWiggum said:
so you think NATO could defend Germany? in all the war games they had they couldnt, and had to use tactical nukes... the Red Army had a gigantic conventional advantage. In any case, you think it would stay conventional for a decent amount of time? I do too, buit a lot think it would have been nuclear form the out
Click to expand...

I think the war would stay conventional unless either Soviet hardliners coup the Politburo, or the Strategic Rocket Forces launch without authoristation.

You'd be surprised at how well German troops can defend given a foxhole and something that explodes.
NATO would have the air advantage for sure.
 
nonconformist said:
I think the war would stay conventional unless either Soviet hardliners coup the Politburo, or the Strategic Rocket Forces launch without authoristation.

You'd be surprised at how well German troops can defend given a foxhole and something that explodes.
NATO would have the air advantage for sure.
Click to expand...

Don't you think Nato would utilise a nuclear attack as a first hit then to wait off the nukes of the Russians. After all, if I were in SHAPE atm the invasion begins, i'd get the hell out of there. :lol:
 
nonconformist said:
No, I don't think NATO would use nukes tactical or otherwise. Hopefully.
Click to expand...

I dont think anyone dares to use Nuclear weopens. Especially when your firing at a nation with just as many nukes
 
aronnax said:
I dont think anyone dares to use Nuclear weopens. Especially when your firing at a nation with just as many nukes
Click to expand...

i can already see the shadow of fatalistic France doing it's last action vs the soviet invasion...

Yeah, if there would be any nation that would do a nuclear campaign in case of being invaded, it would be France.
 
I cant see a situation where Warsaw pact use nuclear weapons first. why would they? they would undoubtedly have had the edge in conventional power, so why risk provoking NATO or the US into launching an all out attack? the only way I could see them initiating it is if they were losing incredibly badly, to the point where the Soviet borfders were threatened. Phillipe, I think you are probably right, if Soviet troops got to the Rhine I think NATO would have considered a tactical attack to stop them.

but is it possible the USSR would have stopped there anyway? the Kremlin would have been quite happy to just take Germany. Is it possible they would have stopped there, and that NATO would rather have let the Russians have Germany than start a nuclear war which could only lead to armegeddon? Is there any way this war can end without a mushroom cloud, or is it inevitable from the out?
 
NATO conventional forces were far outnumbered by the Soviets. Although NATO forces were better trained and had the edge technologically, they would probably have to resort to nuclear weapons. The Soviets would retaliate, and the war would quickly escalate into a full scale nuclear exchange.
 
philippe said:
i can already see the shadow of fatalistic France doing it's last action vs the soviet invasion...

Yeah, if there would be any nation that would do a nuclear campaign in case of being invaded, it would be France.
Click to expand...

I doubt the French people arent that selfish....

Are they?
 
nonconformist said:
No, I don't think NATO would use nukes tactical or otherwise. Hopefully.
Click to expand...
I disagree. I don't think NATO could have held off the Red Army without them. NATO troops were better trained and in some ways equipped, but that's not enough. Oh, they should have given them quite a fight, but in the end the Soviets just had too many tanks and guys with guns - quantity has a quality all its own, as the saying goes.

And I honestly don't see NATO abandoning Europe (Minus the UK, because of the Channel) to Soviet Russia. IF it came down to it, yes, I think they'd op to go nuclear - and the Soviets would of course respond in kind.

I think this is clear from the records that are available to us, and is why Stalin, Kruschev, and his successors never dared to try to take the rest of Europe. They didn't want to take the risk of losing everything, in a desperate gamble to get just a little bit more.
 
Kraznaya said:
Red Storm Rising :)
Click to expand...

I've read that, and its entertaining, but as I said, its a very, very optimistic (from NATO's POV) scenario, in any war games they had they were incapable of defending western europe. Ralph Peter's Red Army is probably a more likely outcomes to be honest.
 
OK, another one.

McArthur gets his way, and Chinese reinforcements pouring into North Korea get nuked. Similtaneously, chinese troops inside Cghina are attacked with tactical nuclear warheads (this assumes McArthur hadnt been given the go ahead but used them anyway). what happens now? what does China do? what does the USSR do? What does America do?
 
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