Physical appearance of Early Medieval Slavic people

Domen · Apr 20, 2014

I've just found this article (in Polish):

http://www.archeo.uw.edu.pl/swarch/Swiatowit-r2001-t3_(44)-nB-s205-212.pdf

"Phenotype of old Slavs, 6th to 10th centuries", by Łukasz M. Stanaszek.

I. Byzantine sources:

1. Procopius of Caesarea (6th century):

- "(...) Valerian chose one of the Sklaveni who are men of mighty stature. (...)"

- "(...) Nay further, they do not differ at all from one another in appearance. For they are all exceptionally tall and stalwart men, while their bodies and hair are neither very fair or very blonde, nor indeed do they incline entirely to the dark type, but they are slightly ruddy in color. (...)"

2. Theophilact Simokatta (describing events from year 595):

"(...) The Emperor was with great curiosity listening to stories about this tribe, he has welcomed these newcomers from the land of barbarians, and after being amazed by their height and mighty stature, he sent these men to Heraclea. (...)"

3. Theophanes the Confessor (describing the same event from year 595):

"(...) The Emperor was admiring their beauty and their stalwart stature. (...)"

4. Pseudo-Maurice (Strategikon) - late 6th century / early 7th century:

"(...) Tribes of Sclaveni and Antes (...) are very resistant to hardships, they easily endure both heat and cold, rain and lack of garment. (...)"

5. Constantine Porphyrogennetos (10th century):

About ancestors of Balkan Croats and ancestors of Balkan Serbs:

"(...) their ancestors were Pagan Croats and Serbs, known also as White [Croats and Serbs]. Great Croatia, called also White [Croatia], until today is still Pagan, just like neighbouring [Lusatian / West Slavic] Serbs [Sorbs] (...)"

II. Muslim and Sephardi Jewish sources:

6. Al-Baladuri (late 7th century):

"(...) Slavs are a tribe of ruddy complexion and fair hair. (...)"

7. Ibn Qutajba (describing events from years 691 - 694):

"(...) If only Prince wanted, outside of his doors would be black Sudanians or ruddy Slavs (...)"

The same information is repeated also by 8. Al-Baladuri (9th century).

9. Al-Ahtal (late 7th century):

"(...) Birds of the desert saw in those people a crowd of fair-haired Slavs. (...)"

10. Jaqut (13th century, but using much older primary sources):

"(...) Slavs are a tribe of ruddy complexion and fair hair. (...)"

11. Ibn Al-Kalbi (late 8th century / early 9th century):

"(...) Slavs are a numerous nation, fair-haired and of ruddy [pink] complexion. (...)"

12. Al-Gahiz (early 9th century):

"(...) Among Slavs, abominable and ugly are their smoothness of hair [as opposed to curly hair] and delicateness, as well as blond or ruddy colour of their hair and beards, and also whiteness [bright blond colour] of their eyelashes (...)"

Al-Gahiz:

"(...) Tell me friend, after how many generations a Zang became black, and a Slav became white? (...)"

13. Abraham ben Jacob (years 965 - 966):

"(...) What is peculiar [when it comes to Slavs], most of Bojema people [Bohemians / Czechs] are of swarthy complexion and dark hair, while fair colors are rare among them [compared to frequencies among other West and East Slavs]. (...)"

Abraham ben Jacob:

"(...) Slavic people are often haunted by two diseases (...) these are two types of rash: redness and abscess (...)"

14. Ibn Al-Faqih (10th century):

"(...) There exist two kinds of Slavic people. First kind are people of swarthy complexion and dark hair. They live near the coast of the [Mediterranean] Sea. The other kind are fair people, who live inland. (...)"

Ibn Al-Faqih:

"(...) Inhabitants of Iraq are people (...) who are not born with hair colour intermediate between russet, blond, matt-white and white [bright blond], as it happens among children born from Slavic women. (...) People of Iraq are free from russet hair colour of Slavs. (...)"

15. Al-Masudi (10th century):

He writes that dominant complexion among Slavic people is fair, not dark.

III. German sources:

15. Saint Bruno of Querfurt:

He wrote that in Poland having a beard is a common custom among men.

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Chart:

English summary:

================================

Let's also add something to these sources mentioned above:

The earliest Arabic-Slavic contacts can probably be traced all the way to the 500's, and most likely occured on or near the territory of the East Roman (Byzantine) Empire. The earliest Arabic sources describe the Slavs as a people with pale skin, that turns "red" while under the sun, and blond hair. The Arabs even referred to a certain kind of a white coloured bean as Saqalibiya (Slavic), as we learn from the Kitab al-Filaha, a treatise on agriculture written by Ibn al-'Avvam at the end of the 12th century; the bean's colour apparently reminded them of the colour of the Slavs' hair. The first confirmed instance of the Slavs meeting the Arabs is mentioned by the Byzantine chronicler Teofanes (Teophanes), who wrote in the early 9th century; according to him in 664 a group of 5 000 Slavic (Sklavinoi) mercenaries in the Byzantine service joined the victorious army of the Omayyad (Umayyad) Caliph Mu'avyi I (reigned 661-680) who was returning from a campaign in Asia Minor. The caliph settled these Slavs in an area near the city of Apamea in northern Syria.

And Pseudo-Caesarius of Nazianzus (6th century) when describing Slavs did not mention hair colour, only that "they are numerous and tall".

He confirms info given by Procopius and others who lived during the 6th century, that Slavs were "exceptionally tall".

=================================

Overall conclusion:

What can be observed is increasing differentation of Slavic people when it comes to appearance throughout centuries.

Relatively homogenous in appearance during the 6th century, Slavs begin to diversify in appearance after expansion.

This is most sharply visible when we compare appearance of West and East (North) Slavs with that of South Slavs.

Domen · Apr 20, 2014

Maybe this is one of reasons why physical appearance of South Slavs quickly transformed:

Procopius about Slavic cavalry mercenaries in Byzantine armies, here:

Procopius, Book V, XXVII, 134:

"(...) This exploit, then, was accomplished by the Goths on the third day after they were repulsed in the assault on the wall. But twenty days after the city and harbor of Portus were captured, Martinus and Valerian arrived, bringing with them sixteen hundred horsemen, the most of whom were Huns and Sclaveni and Antae, who are settled above the Ister River not far from its banks. (...)"

Procopius about Slavic invaders capturing and enslavic a lot of Romans:

Procopius, Book VII, XIII - describing events in year 545 AD:

"(...) For a great throng of the barbarians, the Sclaveni, had, as it happened, recently crossed the Ister, plundering the adjoining country and enslaved a very great number of Romans. (...)"

Procopius of Caesarea:

"(...) In Illyria and Thracia, from the Ionian Gulf to Byzantine surrounding cities, where Hellas and Chersonese regions are situated, (...) the Sklavenes and the Antes, penetrating practically every year since Justinian administering the Roman Empire, were inflicting irreversible damage to their inhabitants. In each invasion I estimate 200,000 Romans were either took as prisoners or killed (...)"

Procopius about Roman attempts to stop the Slavic invasion:

"(...) the Empire wasn't able to find just one only man just as brave to undertake this task. (...)"

Pope Gregory I in a letter to Exarch of Italy from year 599:

"(...) It deeply afflicts and disquiets me the Slavic nation that menace us. It afflicts me from what I already suffer from you, it disquiets me because they have already started to penetrate into the Italic peninsula through Istria. (...)"

And according to Priscus of Panium, in 610 Slavic tribes flooded into Greece.

Procopius of Caesarea:

"(...) Nay further, they [the Slavs] do not differ at all from one another in appearance. For they are all exceptionally tall and stalwart men, while their bodies and hair are neither very fair or blond, nor indeed do they incline entirely to the dark type (...)"

Procopius of Caesarea:

"(...) In more or less the same time [549 - 550] a Slavic army (...) gathered itself together and after crossing without encountering any resistance from anyone the river Ister [Danube], and later with similar ease the river Heuros, it divided itself for two parts. (...) Commanders of Roman garrisons in Illyria and Thrace fought against both those parts and even though they had already separated from each other, the Romans suffered - contrary to their expectations - a defeat, and some of them fell dead on the spot, while others found salvation in escaping. (...) After all garrisons had suffered such defeats at the hands of either one or the other one of barbarian armies, one of enemy bands fought against troops of Asbados. He was a member of Emperor Justinian's personal guard (...) and he led a numerous and elite force of cavalry, which had been garrisoned for a long time inside the Thracian stronghold of Tdzurulon. But also they were forced to retreat by the Slavs and most of them, shamefully escaping, got slaughtered, while Asbados himself was captured and temporarily left alive, but soon after that the Slavs skinned him alive and threw him into a burning campfire. After that the Slavs were plundering all neighbouring Thracian and Illyrian lands without any obstacles and both of their two units captured many strongholds. (...) And those who had defeated Asbados, later plundered in turn everything up to the sea coast, and captured in an assault the coastal city of Toperus (...) And they slaughtered 25,000 men, plundered everything, and enslaved all the children and all the women. (...)"

John of Ephesus:

"(...) In third year after the death of Emperor Justin, during the reign of victorious Tiberius, the damned nation of the Slavs has risen, and marching through entire Hellas, through lands of Thessaly and Thrace, captured many cities and strongholds, plundered, burned and robbed, seized the land and settled there with full ease, without fear, like in their own land. (...) they were plundering the country, burning it and robbing, as far as the Great Walls [of Constantinople], and this is how they captured many thousands of cattle, as well as many other kinds of booty. (...) Until today, that is until year 584, they still continue to live in peace in lands of the Rhomaioi, without fear and concern, plundering, murdering and burning, getting rich and highjacking gold and silver, capturing horses and plenty of weapons; and they have learned to fight better than the Rhomaioi. (...)"

Menander Protector:

"(...) About the fourth year of the reign of Caesar Tiberius Constantine, some hundred thousand Slavs broke into Thrace, and pillaged that and many other regions. As Greece was being laid waste by the Slavs, with trouble liable to flare up anywhere, and as Tiberius had at his disposal by no means sufficient forces, he sent a delegation to the Khagan of the Avars. (...)"

Strategikon of Maurice:

"(...) They do not keep prisoners in perpetual slavery like other peoples, but they demarcate for them a limited period of time, after which they give them a choice: they can return home after purchasing their freedom, or stay among them as free people and friends. (...)"

Jordanes:

"(...) These people, as we started to say at the beginning of our account or catalogue of nations, though off-shoots from one stock, have now three names, that is, Venedi, Antes and Sclaveni. (...) they now rage in war far and wide, in punishment for our sins (...) Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (...)"

Procopius of Caesarea:

"(...) Belisarius was eager to capture alive one of the men of note among the enemy, in order that he might learn what the reason might be why the barbarians were holding out in their desperate situation. And Valerian promised readily to perform such a service for him. For there were some men in his command, he said, from the nation of the Sklaveni, who are accustomed to conceal themselves behind a small rock or any bush which may happen to be near and pounce upon an enemy. In fact, they are constantly practising this in their native haunts along the river Ister, both on the Romans and on the barbarians as well. (...)"

De Administrando Imperio:

"(...) Therefore everyone, who would like to do research about Dalmatia, can read herein about the way how the Slavic peoples took it. The Croats with their families came to Dalmatia and found the Avars in possesson of that land. After fighting against each other for some time, the Croats defeated the Avars, partially murdered them and partially forced them to submissiveness. Since that moment the country was seized by the Croats. (...)"

And these are just a few examples out of many.

There are many more sources which write about Slavic invasions of the Balkans.

According to sources lready in 547 AD Slavic tribes invaded as far as Durazzo (Dyrrachium / Durres).

====================================

Abraham ben Jacob (a 10th century Sephardic Jewish traveller from Muslim Spain):

"(...) Slavic countries extend from the Mediterranean Sea to the Northern Ocean. (...) Generally speaking, Slavs are warlike and violent, and if not their internal discord and lack of unity, no other nation would be able to match them in strength. (...)"

Domen · Apr 21, 2014

IIRC, Florin Curta in his book "The Making of the Slavs" argues that Slavs in the Balkans did not come from anywhere, but that they were local Balkan (Roman) peasants / serfs / slaves, who rebelled against authority. This point of view cannot be supported in the light of overwhelming evidence which confirms large-scale invasions from outside by the Sklaveni and the Antes (and later by Serbs and Croats), but the origin of such view is easy to explain.

We have for example the following info about Slavic invasions of Balkans:

"(...) Nay further, they [the Slavs] do not differ at all from one another in appearance. For they are all exceptionally tall and stalwart men, while their bodies and hair are neither very fair or blond, nor indeed do they incline entirely to the dark type (...)"

"(...) For a great throng of the barbarians, the Sclaveni, had, as it happened, recently crossed the Ister, plundering the adjoining country and enslaved a very great number of Romans. (...)"

"(...) In Illyria and Thracia, from the Ionian Gulf to Byzantine surrounding cities, where Hellas and Chersonese regions are situated, (...) the Sklavenes and the Antes, penetrating practically every year since Justinian administering the Roman Empire, were inflicting irreversible damage to their inhabitants. In each invasion I estimate 200,000 Romans were either took as prisoners or killed (...)"

"(...) After that the Slavs were plundering all neighbouring Thracian and Illyrian lands without any obstacles and both of their two units captured many strongholds. (...) And those who had defeated Asbados, later plundered in turn everything up to the sea coast, and captured in an assault the coastal city of Toperus (...) And they slaughtered 25,000 men, plundered everything, and enslaved all the children and all the women. (...)"

"(...) the nation of the Sklaveni, who are accustomed to conceal themselves behind a small rock or any bush which may happen to be near and pounce upon an enemy. In fact, they are constantly practising this in their native haunts along the river Ister, both on the Romans and on the barbarians as well. (...)"

"(...) In third year after the death of Emperor Justin, during the reign of victorious Tiberius, the damned nation of the Slavs has risen, and marching through entire Hellas, through lands of Thessaly and Thrace, captured many cities and strongholds, plundered, burned and robbed, seized the land and settled there with full ease, without fear, like in their own land. (...) they were plundering the country, burning it and robbing, as far as the Great Walls [of Constantinople], and this is how they captured many thousands of cattle, as well as many other kinds of booty. (...) Until today, that is until year 584, they still continue to live in peace in lands of the Rhomaioi, without fear and concern, plundering, murdering and burning, getting rich and highjacking gold and silver, capturing horses and plenty of weapons; and they have learned to fight better than the Rhomaioi. (...)"

"(...) These people, as we started to say at the beginning of our account or catalogue of nations, though off-shoots from one stock, have now three names, that is, Venedi, Antes and Sclaveni. (...) they now rage in war far and wide, in punishment for our sins (...)"

"(...) Generally speaking, Slavs are warlike and violent, and if not their internal discord and lack of unity, no other nation would be able to match them in strength. (...)"

5. Constantine Porphyrogennetos (10th century):

About ancestors of Balkan Croats and ancestors of Balkan Serbs:

"(...) their ancestors were Pagan Croats and Serbs, known also as White [Croats and Serbs]. Great Croatia, called also White [Croatia], until today is still Pagan, just like neighbouring [Lusatian / West Slavic] Serbs [Sorbs] (...)"

De Administrando Imperio:

"(...) Therefore everyone, who would like to do research about Dalmatia, can read herein about the way how the Slavic peoples took it. The Croats with their families came to Dalmatia and found the Avars in possesson of that land. After fighting against each other for some time, the Croats defeated the Avars, partially murdered them and partially forced them to submissiveness. Since that moment the country was seized by the Croats. (...)"

And then we can read this about Slavic treatment of their slaves:

"(...) They do not keep prisoners in perpetual slavery like other peoples, but they demarcate for them a limited period of time, after which they give them a choice: they can return home after purchasing their freedom, or stay among them as free people and friends. (...)"

The conclusion from all this information posted above, is that Slavic tribes who invaded the Balkans - and were enslavic local population - quickly became societies which consisted of original Slavic invaders (minority) and conquered Balkanic masses - slaves captured by Slavs and then liberated by them and offered to join their communities and to stay among them as "free people and friends" (majority).

This is also the reason why anthropological and phenotypical type of South Slavs quickly evolved (they simply incorporated huge masses of Balkan slaves into their original society of conquerors):

This fact - namely the structure of South Slavic society, which consisted largely of former Roman citizens enslaved by invading Slavic warriors and then incorporated into the Slavic society - also explains why the ethnonym "Slav" (derived from the South Slavic tribe of Sklaveni) started to mean the same as "slave / captive" in Byzantine Greek language.

The Byzantines simply recognized the fact, that original Slavic invaders (fair-skinned, fair-haired "Northerners" who were exceptionally tall and stalwart) created societies consisting of former Byzantine citizens (dark-haired, dark-skinned, shorter height), at first enslaved by Slavs and then liberated and assimilated by them.

This conclusion - Slavic invasion and then hybridisation with local, enslaved by Slavs population of the Balkan Peninsula (dark hair, darker skin), is also supported by genetic comparison (haplogroups) between South Slavs and East / West (North) Slavs.

=================================================

In descriptions of Slavic warriors from the 6th century - original invaders of the Balkans - we can see that their weaponry was more primitive than that used by civilized citizens of the Roman Empire. They also did not use metal armour (Procopius, Caezarius of Nazianzus, etc.) However, they had physical advantage over populations of the Roman Empire, due to being taller and stronger (Procopius, Caezarius of Nazianzus, all other sources).

They also quickly captured a lot of advanced Roman weapons, due to which they "learned to fight better than the Rhomaioi" (John of Ephesus).

We can also see Slavic mercenaries serving (obviously with Roman weapons and in Roman armour) in armies of Belisarius (Procopius).

=============================

So to summ up in several words:

Ethnogenesis of South (Balkan) Slavs, took place as the result of conquest and enslavement of the vast Balkan populations (majority) by the original Slavic invaders (minority) who crossed the Danube River and flooded into Balkans. They captured and enslaved local Roman citizens, later liberating them and allowing them to join their communities (since: "(...) They do not keep prisoners in perpetual slavery like other peoples, but they demarcate for them a limited period of time, after which they give them a choice: they can return home after purchasing their freedom, or stay among them as free people and friends. (...)" - as Strategikon of Maurice described).

Seeing that those North-Eastern and Northern invaders created their societies with use of captured by them slaves and captives - who were local Roman citizens -, Byzantine sources began to use the ethnonym "Slav" (derived from the South Slavic tribe of the Sklaveni - which was apparently more numerous than the other tribe, the Antes) to describe those ethnic Roman and ethnic Greek slaves / captives, whose enormous numbers had been captured by the Slavic invaders and then assimilated into their communities.

This is how a new Greek word - σκλάβα = skláva / σκλάβες = skláves - started to denote former Roman citizens enslaved by Slavic invaders.

===========================================

What connects South Slavs with North (West and East) Slavs in a "Pan-Slavic" community, is language and culture:

However, these ties became weaker due to the fact that South Slavs were cut-off from North Slavs by Nomadic Magyars (Hungarians) as well as expansive Germans and survival of Romanians. As the result, a "non-Slavic Corridor" separated South Slavs from North Slavs:

Numbers show percentages of Slavic speakers in each country today.

Arrows show expansion of non-Slavic groups into area originally conquered and assimilated by Early Medieval Slavs.

As the result Slavs lost some ground compared to areas originally conquered and Slavicized in 6th - 8th centuries:

Słowianie zachodni = West Slavs
Słowianie wschodni = East Slavs
Słowianie południowi = South Slavs

Awarowie = Avars (who enslaved populations who lived in that white territory; mostly areas of modern Romania and Hungary)

Map shows situation in 8th century AD.

===========================================

Most common theory (out of those which claim North-Eastern origins of Slavs) places the earlier Slavic homeland at the Dnieper River. But according to Lech Czupkiewicz, they first expanded from the Volga (Ptolemy's Σουοβενοι / Souobenoi and / or Stauanoi) towards the Dnieper:

After that expansion from the Volga to the Dnieper, they expanded further in all directions - seizing half of entire Europe.

====================================

And according to Czupkiewicz, Ptolemy's Souobenoi / Stauanoi came at the Volga only around year 200 BC.

Before 200 BC - according to Czupkiewicz -, they lived in yet another, uncertain place.

===========================

Slavic expansion into Baltic territories 200 AD - 1200 AD:

Traitorfish · Apr 22, 2014

tl;dr early medieval slavs looked everybody else above the alps in that era and every era since: fat and pink.

Winner · Apr 22, 2014

Ah, good ol' Racial Science :crazyeye:

Just a little note: I've been told many times by people from Western Europe and America that Czechs don't really look too "Slavic" to them. While most such comments should be taken with a grain of salt, due to these people associating "Slavic" with the images of stereotypical Russians, one of them was an anthropologist. He said that to him, going just by appearance, Czechs are indistinguishable from Austrians and Bavarians. Given that both these populations are more or less the same kind of mix of Celts, Germans and Slavs, I tend to agree with him.

Poles to me are easier to distinguish - I've noticed the men have slightly broader faces and are much blonder than I am used to.

South Slavs indeed look very Mediterranean, like Greeks or Italians.

gay_Aleks · Apr 22, 2014

Traitorfish said:
tl;dr early medieval slavs looked everybody else above the alps in that era and every era since: fat and pink.

Except for the Spanish and Italians; those people were pure black, until they realised their true belongings.

Pangur Bán · Apr 22, 2014

Winner said:
Ah, good ol' Racial Science

Just a little note: I've been told many times by people from Western Europe and America that Czechs don't really look too "Slavic" to them. While most such comments should be taken with a grain of salt, due to these people associating "Slavic" with the images of stereotypical Russians, one of them was an anthropologist. He said that to him, going just by appearance, Czechs are indistinguishable from Austrians and Bavarians. Given that both these populations are more or less the same kind of mix of Celts, Germans and Slavs, I tend to agree with him.

Poles to me are easier to distinguish - I've noticed the men have slightly broader faces and are much blonder than I am used to.

South Slavs indeed look very Mediterranean, like Greeks or Italians.

Mostly irrelevant, but Poland like Russia almost certainly has a Scandinavian past that is barely visible in the written records. For instance, strontium isotope tests on the warriors of Harold Bluetooth, formative king of Denmark, appear to indicate that the bulk of his followers had a geographical origin in Poland or neighbouring territory.

Domen · Apr 22, 2014

For instance, strontium isotope tests on the warriors of Harold Bluetooth, formative king of Denmark, appear to indicate that the bulk of his followers had a geographical origin in Poland or neighbouring territory.

And Saxo Grammaticus, author of "Gesta Danorum" ("Deeds of the Danes"), wrote that army of Harald Bluetooth consisted of "Danes and Slavs".

Sources also say that wife of Harald Bluetooth was Tova (or Tove), daughter of Mstivoy - Prince of the Obotrites.

And Saxo writes that there was a Danish-Obotrite alliance (marriage between Harald and Tova being part of it).

So where do you see "Scandinavians", if Saxo explicitly wrote about Slavic mercenaries? Strontium isotope only confirms written sources in this case.

BTW - have you figured out my posts about this on Historum.com, or have you found this article about Harald Bluetooth's warriors by yourself?

the bulk of his followers had a geographical origin in Poland or neighbouring territory.

Certainly not "the bulk".

Out of 48 warriors buried near Trelleborg (on Zealand), 16 were born in Southern Scandinavia (Denmark + South Sweden) and 32 outside of that area.

Out of those 32 most were born in West Slavic areas, but some of them also in Norway and in Sweden.

The exact location of those from West Slavic areas was not given.

It was only given that 6 of them (ratios of strontium isotopes from 0.711 to 0.715) were born far away to the south, because in any place between the modern German-Czech borderland (near the Ore Mountains) and the modern Southern Poland or Northern Czechia (near the Carpathian Mountains).

Domen · Apr 22, 2014

that is barely visible in the written records.

Actually all of it is visible in the written records (unless you try to insinuate that there is "something more" than what is visible in these records - i.e. for example if you suggest that Piast dynasty has Scandinavian origins, which is not confirmed - and actually is denied - by all the written records available).

But you don't know this because you simply don't know these written records. In fact both marriages between Piast dynasy and other European dynasties (Czech, German, Russian, Scandinavian, Hungarian, Lithuanian, etc.), as well as many other relations and contacts, are visible in written records.

Moreover - recently archaeology is helping to confirm what these written records say.

For example the escape of followers of Sviatopolk the Damned from Kiev to Poland - which took place in year 1019 - has been confirmed by Polish archaeology. Graves of personal bodyguards (and perhaps also family members) of Sviatopolk the Damned were discovered in Bodzia, near Włocławek. This belt confirms that they were Sviatopolk's men (but no Sviatopolk himself, since he was killed by warriors of Yaroslav the Wise before crossing the Polish border):

This belt has the seal of Rurikid dynasty - and precisely the personal seal of Sviatopolk the Damned (son-in-law of Polish King Bolesław) - visible on it.

Now if you read these 3 articles linked below, you will learn why followers of Sviatopolk escaped to Poland in year 1019:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boleslaw_I's_intervention_in_the_Kievan_succession_crisis,_1018

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_River_Bug

http://kievan-rus2.appspot.com/Prince_Sviatopolk_Vladimirovich_Xthe_DamnedX.html

Domen · Apr 22, 2014

Winner said:
these populations are more or less the same kind of mix of Celts, Germans and Slavs

There is also population continuity in territory of modern Poland since the Bronze Age until modern times. For example haplogroup R1a subclade L260 - which spread from one single paternal lineage around 2700 - 2600 years ago as the result of some "baby boom" with participation of this lineage - is today described as "West Slavic" subclade (in Poland some 17% - almost 3,5 million - males have it). However, this subclade has been identified in numerous Ancient skeletons from area of modern Poland, belonging to people of Iron Age Przeworsk Culture (which flourished in the same period when this subclade was expanding).

Apart from paternal lineages (like this - as it's called - "West Slavic" L260 identified already in Iron Age populations of Przeworsk culture - which can be found in high frequencies mostly in Poland, and to some extent also in Czechia and in Slovakia), there is also continuation of many maternal lineages:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0054360

Editor: Luísa Maria Sousa Mesquita Pereira, IPATIMUP (Institute of Molecular Pathology and Immunology of the University of Porto), Portugal
Received: July 17, 2012; Accepted: December 11, 2012; Published: January 14, 2013
Copyright: © 2013 Mielnik-Sikorska et al. This is an open-access article distributed under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution License, which permits unrestricted use, distribution, and reproduction in any medium, provided the original author and source are credited.
Funding: This study was partially supported by the Polish Ministry of Science and Higher Education grants (nos. N N301 075839 and N N303 307737) and the Program of Presidium of Russian Academy of Sciences “Biodiversity” (grant no. 12-I-P30-12). The funders had no role in study design, data collection and analysis, decision to publish, or preparation of the manuscript.
Competing interests: The authors have declared that no competing interests exist.

Introduction

The Slavs are the most numerous population of Central and Eastern Europe. Nowadays, about 268 million people inhabiting well over half of Europe speak thirteen languages (and their dialects) belonging to the Slavic language group [1]. First remarks about Slavic populations can be found in the written sources of East Roman and Byzantine authors, dated around 550 AD. Although these reports characterized Slavic tribes that had lived at that time, the antecedent history of that ethnic groups remained unrevealed. Therefore, the issue of the earliest location of Slavs has been deliberated over the past century from the historical, archaeological, ethnographic and linguistic viewpoint (e.g. [1]–[5].) Although the ongoing discussion in these fields unanimously indicates their common origin, the results of various studies indicate different time and place of their formation. A number of alternative “homelands” of the Slavs have been suggested thus far (reviewed briefly in [1]). Many hypotheses have been proposed to explain the origin of Slavs, but the most widely discussed are “autochthonous” and “allochthonous” (migrationist) theories [6]. The “autochthonous” conception points to the continuity of cultural development of the Central Europe (the area between the Oder and Vistula rivers) from the Bronze Age until the historical appearance of the Slavs in the early Middle Ages. According to this hypothesis, the Bronze and Iron Age Lusatian culture of the area between the Oder and Vistula is considered as Proto-Slavic and subsequent Zarubinets-Przeworsk cultures (200 BC –200 AD) are included in the putative Slavic “homeland” [7], [8]. From the very beginning, this hypothesis has been challenged by some German archeologists who claim that the Przeworsk region was more arguably within an early Germanic-speaking territory [2]. Alternatively, the “allochthonous” (migrationist) assumption tracks the earliest Slavic territory to the area stretching from Carpathian foothills to the Pripet and the left bank of the middle Dniepr river (the area of contemporary Ukraine). According to this concept, the early Slavic culture assembled during the 5th century AD in the area of Cherniakhovo culture and then expanded very rapidly across Central and Eastern Europe due to extensive migrations [9]. To some extent, these two contradictory views on the earliest location of the Slavs have been verified with the recent findings of physical anthropology. Based on the newest anthropological data it has been suggested that the area between the Oder and Vistula rivers witnessed continuity of human settlement between the Roman period and the early Middle Ages. Indeed, based on morphological features of skeletal materials it has been established that populations of the Przeworsk, Wielbark and Cherniakhovo cultures from the Roman period bear close similarities to the early medieval Western Slavs and not to the medieval Germanic-speaking populations [10], [11]. Furthermore, paleodemographic studies also point to the biological continuity of the populations inhabiting the Oder and Vistula basin in the Roman period and the early medieval Slavic populations of this region [10]. Therefore, anthropological data received thus far make the “allochtonic” hypothesis less plausible, especially in its extreme migrationist form.

(...)

But does it mean that Przeworsk people were already speaking Slavic languages, or that Przeworsk people later became Slavicized?

Anyway - the theory about "total depopulation" of territory of modern Poland (and then re-population by migrating Slavic tribes) in Late Antiquity and Early Middle Ages - first invented by German nationalists in the 19th century - can no longer be supported.

Polish archaeologist prof. Włodzimierz Godlewski estimates that during that period population of territory of Poland decreased by 66%.

So according to him, population was reduced to 1/3 of its previous level. But no any "total depopulation" took place.

There is also dispute whether there was - to some extent - continuation of material culture, or disappearance of Iron Age culture.

Archaeologists who oppose continuation argue for example, that Przeworsk people lived mostly in rectangular-shaped half-dugouts.

While Early Medieval people lived mostly in more like square-shaped half-dugouts. So this is a "totally different shape".

early medieval slavs looked everybody else above the alps in that era and every era since: fat and pink.

"Fat and pink" was how Russian chronicler Nestor described Polish King Bolesław I Chrobry (when describing the events of 1018).

Well, he didn't call him "pink", but he called him "a fat hog" (and pigs / hogs are usually pink).

Bolesław was son of Mieszko I (Mesko according to 10th century traveller Abraham ben Jacob) and Czech Princess Doubravka.

================================

Edit:

Some moderator please merge my 3 posts.

I have a habit of writing multiple posts from another forum (Historum.com), because there forum rules are supporting such a thing.

And here forum rules are against multiple posts. But when I'm registered on 2 different fora with 2 different policies, it is quite confusing...

Domen · Apr 22, 2014

Pangur Ban said:
Mostly irrelevant, but Poland like Russia almost certainly has a Scandinavian past that is barely visible in the written records.

Presence of Scandinavian mercenaries in Poland is confirmed by Polish archaeology during the 11th century (on the other hand, there is so far no any archaeological evidence for Scandinavian presence in Poland dating to the 10th century, in period when Poland emerged as a country).

But during that period (11th century) Polish princess, Świętosława (also called "Gunhild the Slav" by her Danish subjects) - sister of King Bolesław Chrobry - was Queen of Denmark, Norway and Sweden (wife of Eric the Victorious of Sweden and later wife of Svein Forkbeard of Denmark) - as testified by several sources, including contemporary German chronicler, Thietmar of Merseburg. Thietmar also mentioned a Polish-Danish military alliance from that period.

Moreover, not only Scandinavian mercenaries were present in Polish armies, but also Polish (and other Slavic) mercenaries were present in Scandinavian armies - as is confirmed by several sources when it comes to Cnut the Great's invasion of England in 1015/1016 and later by English chronicler Orderic Vitalis, who wrote in his "Historia Ecclesiastica" that army of Svein Estridsen, which invaded England in 1069, was supported by "Poleni" (Poles) and "Veleti" (Veleti).

And of course already mentioned above presence of Slavic mercenaries in army of Harald Bluetooth (confirmed by Saxo and by modern science).

Also presence of Pecheneg, Hungarian and German mercenaries in 11th century Poland is confirmed by written records (300 Germans, 500 Hungarians and 1000 Pechenegs supported Polish forces during its intervention in Kievan Rus in 1018 - according to Thietmar, book VIII, chapter 32). As well as presence of Polish mercenaries in the HRE is confirmed (e.g. in year 1000 during the Congress of Gniezno Bolesław sent to Emperor Otto I 300 warriors as a gift).

Finally, in year 1039 there were also 500 German mercenaries supporting Polish forces of Casimir the Restorator.

I have already learned from several other threads that Pangur Ban is "extremely pro-Germanic" (he thinks that Germans or Germanics ruled entire Europe in the past, forming ruling classes of each single country, and in general I suppose that he would be good as a personal historian of Joseph Goebbels), but claiming that Polish-born Scandinavians were in the army of Harald Bluetooth - when Danish chronicler Saxo Grammaticus clearly wrote that those were Slavic mercenaries, and strontium isotopes confirm this (rather than suggesting that there were Scandinavians born near the Carpathian Mountains) - is silly.

We could as well claim that Rurik was a Scandinavian-born Slav, because Nestor described him as coming from Scandinavia. But Nestor actually didn't mention the ethnicity of Rurik - while Saxo clearly mentions that Harald Bluetooths' army consisted of Danish warriors and Slavic warriors:

https://www.academia.edu/622731/Who...s_army_Strontium_isotope_investigation_of_the

(...) The famous Danish chronicler Saxo, in his ‘Danish History’ gives an account of the reign of Harald Bluetooth (...) He also reports that the king, towards the end of his rule and in a period contemporary with the Trelleborg fortresses, based his power on an army composed of ‘Danes and Slavs’. According to a twelfth-century chronicler, the so-called ‘law of the Kings’, retainers became necessary because of the heterogeneous ethnic composition of the royal retinue at the beginning of the eleventh century (for a more detailed review of the sources compare M. Andersen 1982; Damgaard-Sørensen 1991; Dobat 2010). (...)

When it comes to Rurik - German and Swedish historians claim that he was Swedish. Russian historians claim that he was Slavic.

But - finally - there are Finnish historians who claim that he was Finnish. For some reason, not enough attention has been paid to this theory!

Indeed "Rurik" is not a typically Germanic or Slavic name, but rather a typically Finnish name. At least according to Finnish historian Eero Kuussaari.

Also in 2006 genetic research concerning the genotype of known descendants of Rurik started to be conducted. It turned out that descendants of Rurik had Y-DNA haplogroup N1c1, which is the most common haplogroup among Baltic Finno-Ugric people (68% of Finns, 50% of Estonians and 40% of inhabitants of Latvia - descendants of Livonians / Livs - have this haplogroup) and among the Finno-Ugric Sami people. This genotype is less frequent in territories of northern Russia (which used to be inhabited by Ugro-Finnic people before they became Slavicized during the Slavic expansion) as well as in central (10%-15%) and northern (30%) Sweden. There is also some mutation called DYS390=23 among descendants of Rurik, which is common among Baltic-Finnish people.

==================================================

Archaeology also confirmed the presence in Poland of warriors of Sviatopolk the Damned, who escaped here in 1019, after being defeated by Yaroslav.

Pangur Bán · Apr 22, 2014

Some of what you post here is interesting Domen.

Anyway, Saxo Grammaticus is not a reliable source for the 10th century. What you didn't mention (I can't see it anyway) is that reliable near contemporary sources make it virtually certain that Cnut was the grandson of Mieszko I.

I haven't decided if the Piasts are of Scandinavian origin. All I know about the Piasts is that we know nothing reliable about them before Mieszko. Their origin earlier than that is anyone's guess.

Pangur Bán · Apr 22, 2014

Domen said:
We could as well claim that Rurik was a Scan
When it comes to Rurik - German and Swedish historians claim that he was Swedish. Russian historians claim that he was Slavic.

Rurik is based on a frivolously common Germanic name. The Rus are definitely Scandinavian in origin, don't have any doubts about that.

Domen · Apr 22, 2014

Scandinavian in origin, don't have any doubts about that.

Yeah but in Scandinavia there is more than one nationality / ethnic group.

Well - Nestor (Russian 11th - 12th century chronicler) himself claimed that Rurik was Scandinavian.

Nestor also claimed that Rurik was invited by Slavic tribes from the area of Novgorod who were so quarrelsome that they were unable to elect a single ruler from among their own chieftains - so they decided to invite a foreigner to be their king.

As far as I know, Germanic historians (especially those from the 19th century) don't like this 2nd part of Nestor's story, and rather prefer the theory that Rurik came with his band of Varangians and suppressed all Slavs by force, conquering them.

On the other hand, the 1st part of Nestor's story (that Rurik was Scandinavian) is happily accepted by these historians.

Rurik is based on a frivolously common Germanic name. The Rus are definitely Scandinavian in origin

Rurik was not based on a Finnish name, but it was a Finnish name (common in Medieval Finland).

Rus is a word of Finnish origin (nowadays this word in Finnish language - Ruotsi - denotes "Swedes", but in the past it denoted "sailors").

I'm not sure if we can draw conclusions about the past basing just on the modern meaning of some word.

Here is an interesting article (originally it was in Polish, I translated it to English) about the "Finnish theory" on Rurik's origin:

About the origins of Rurik and Varangians, Finnish roots of Russia?

Recently I became interested in the issue of ancestry of Rurik, a semi-legendary founder of Kievan Rus, who is usually considered as a germanic chief, who came from the region of Roslagen in Sweden, who sailed to Novgorod together with his fella, and created a state, reconciling Slavic and Finnish tribes who fought against each other. He took power and lived until 879, when he granted land to his companions. He had brothers Sineus and Trowor. After his death the throne was taken over by Oleg, later by Igor, who united Slavic tribes as well as some Ugro-Finnic tribes under one authority.

The issue of Rurik's origins is controversial. We know not much about him. Some people think that semi-legendary Rurik was the same person as Rorik from Dorestad, who was born in Haithabu in Jutland. Some scholars think, that Rurik in fact never existed. For a very long time Tsars of Russia - descendants of Rurik - believed that their first ancestor was a native Slavic person, and that the theory about his foreign, overseas origin is propaganda, even though this is how Nestor's Primary Chronicle written during the 1100s portrayed him.

The theory about Germanic origins of Kievan Rus was for the first time presented during the 1700s by historian Gerhardt Friedrich Müller, who was invited to research work by members of Russian Academy of Sciences. When German historian started to convince them about the conquest of Rus by Scandinavians, members of the Russian Academy so much did not like that, that during a meeting in 1749 Müller's lecture was interrupted and he was asked to live the auditorium. Russians did not want to believe, that their ancestors needed some imported thug to organize their first government. Only later more scholars started to believe in this theory.

Then in 1935 Finnish historian - Eero Kuussaari - established a theory that Rurik and his unit of Varangians were Finnish (precisely Baltic-Finnish). According to Kuussaari, the word "Varangian" came from Finnish words "vara / vartio" (which means "guard") or "vaara" (which means "hill" or "danger") and they were called - in their native language - Varakko-Ruotsit, which means "people who sail the seas". Finnish tribes at that time used to construct networks of wooden strongholds located on tops of hills, from which they were sending smoke signals to each other - informing about imminent dangers. In northern part of Norway - in area inhabited by Kvens - an ethnic group who spoke a dialect of Finnish language - there is a peninsula called Varanger, and local people call it Varangin Vuono, Varjakka, Varanka (all these words are Finnish). Historian Kuussaari also proposed a hypothesis, that Rurik was one of Baltic-Finnic people.

Names of brothers, friends and sons of Rurik mentioned in Scandinavian Sagas do not sound very Finnic, which is why for a long time Kuussaari's theory was being rejected by most historians. However, it is possible that those names were distorted. An example of a person whose Finnish name was distorted by Norwegian Sagas, was a certain King of Kvenland (Finland), who participated in an alliance with Norwegians in their invasion of Karelians. Finnish legends also mention that King of Kvenland, but they call it with a completely different, native name - Kaukamoinen / Kaukomieli.

In 2006 genetic research concerning the genotype of known descendants of Rurik started to be conducted (a Polish scholar Andrzej Bajor participated in that research). Surprisingly it turned out that descendants of Rurik have Y-DNA haplogroup N1c1, which is the most common haplogroup among Baltic Ugro-Finnic people (68% of Finns, 50% of Estonians and 40% of inhabitants of Latvia - descendants of Livonians / Livs - have this haplogroup). This genotype is less frequent in territories of northern Russia (which used to be inhabited only by Ugro-Finnic speakers before they were Slavicized) as well as in central (10%-15%) and northern (over 30%) Sweden, which also used to be inhabited by Saami and Finnish majority in the past. This is also confirmed by presence of mutation DYS390=23, very common among Baltic-Finnish people.

Another scholar - Kalevi Wiik - says that the region of Roslagen, from which supposedly came Rurik, had been inhabited by majority of Ugro-Finnic people at least until the middle of the first millennium AD. Later that population was assimilated by Germanic tribes.

We do not know what language was spoken by Rurik. But what is certain is that in the past very larg part of northern Sweden was inhabited by tribes speaking Ugro-Finnic languages, which later were assimilated by Swedish-speakers. Some scholars extend the territory of Kvenland - described in Scandinavian Sagas - also to what is today northern Sweden. It is assumed that Northern Sweden belonged to the Finnish tribe of Kainuu, the main activities of which was hunting and imposing tribute on neighbouring Saami peoples, while farming was almost unknown for the Kainuu. Later Meänkieli dialect emerged in that region, which until this day is spoken by people who live on the western side of the River Tornio. It is also probable, that Ugro-Finnic population of Roslagen region was later reinforced by new settlers from Finland

It is not certain, whether Rurik really was Finnish, Estonian, or Kvenish. There are several possible explanations of this theory:

- he had Finnish ancestors, who after some time were assimilated (I am not sure if term "germanized" would be good here), so he belonged to germanic culture, but part of his band consisted of Baltic Finns, who joined him on his way.

- he lived in Sweden, and he spoke some version of Baltic-Finnic (in the past in Finland there were indeed the names Ruuri and Ruurikko, which used to be quite popular among ethnic Finnish people). "Germanic-sounding" names of his brothers and companions were distorted by Scandinavian Sagas and chroniclers, or invented. It is also possible that some members of his band were of Germanic-Finnic ancestry, while he was Finnic.

- Rurik did not exist, at least not how we know him from chronicles and sagas. He was an unknown brigand, of Finnish, Estonian, Livonian or Kainuu ancestry, who took power in Novgorod; in western Finnic lands some germanic cultural influences could be seen, for example in clothes designs.

====================================

Now coming back to warriors of Harald Bluetooth:

Saxo Grammatics - Danish Medieval chronicler - describes in "Gesta Danorum", that Harald Bluetooth's army consisted of "Danes and Slavs".

Modern science - strontium isotope research of warriors buried near Trelleborg - confirms that many of 48 men were born in West Slavic lands.

However, some Germanic "patriots" now claim that those were probably "Polish-born Scandinavians" (etc.), rather than really Slavic people.

Well, such claims are ridiculous considering that written sources (Saxo) and science (strontium isotopes) are in agreement.

Please note that Russians can as well claim that Rurik was a "Scandinavian-born Slav" using similar logic.

And they actually have more grounds for such a claim - because Nestor does not mention what was Rurik's ethnicity.

Nestor only writes where did Rurik come from - i.e. that he came from Scandinavia - but he does not say what was Rurik's ethnicity.

On the other hand, Saxo Grammaticus in his "Gesta Danorum" is more than clear regarding ethnicity of Slavic warriors of Harald Bluetooth.

====================================

Regarding Polish Piast dynasty:

Unlike in case of the Rurikid dynasty, there are no any sources indicating that the Piast dynasty was from Scandinavia.

Quite the opposite - Poland's equivalent of Russia's Nestor - Gallus Anonymus - clearly wrote that Piast dynasty had local, Polish origins.

Nestor (12th century Russian chronicler) confirms that Rurik was from Scandinavia.

Gallus (12th century Polish chronicler) confirms that Piast dynasty was local, Polish.

Moreover - we have contemporary sources from the 10th century (for example Abraham ben Jacob) which call Mieszko with this, clearly Slavic, name - Mieszko.

The only source used by German nationalists to claim that Mieszko was not Slavic, was so called document "Dagome Iudex".

"Dagome Iudex" - known not from its original version, but only from a very late copy made by some Papal clerk from Rome - describes the borders of Poland in 990s. That Papal clerk who copied the document, however, mentioned some "justiciary Dagome" and his people as "probably Sardinians".

So according to that document Poles were Sardinians, ruled by a justiciary.

There is a theory that Dagome is a distorted form of a 2nd, Christian name adopted by Mieszko during baptism (so called baptismal name). Just like later for example Mieszko II Lambert - he had a traditional name Mieszko and a Christian name Lambert. Or Władysław I Herman (Władysław - Slavic name; Herman - Christian name).

Another theory is, that Papal scribe simply didn't know what he was writing about (he claimed that Poles are Sardinians and that they are ruled by 4 men).

If Polish dynasty was not of Polish origin, then people such as Thietmar, Gallus, Kosmas, Abraham ben Jacob, etc., etc. would mention this.

Just like Nestor mentioned Scandinavian origin of Rurik (but he claimed that Rurik was elected in a "free election" by quarrelsome Slavic tribes).

Pangur Bán · Apr 22, 2014

There's no way of telling what specific tribal group Rurik came from, but his name is definitely Germanic. The ethnic geography of northern Europe was a lot different in the 9th and 10th centuries than later.

For instance, much of the 'Great Army' that invaded England in the 860s actually came from Frisia rather than mainland Scandinavia. 10th-century 'Danish' armies in England almost always came from Ireland.

So, it's perfectly possible that Rurik came from the Baltic or indeed Russia.

Domen · Apr 22, 2014

All I know about the Piasts is that we know nothing reliable about them before Mieszko.

This is not true.

Information about ancestors of Mieszko is given by Gallus Anonymus. It is no less reliable than information about Rurik given by Nestor. Both Gallus Anonymus and Nestor wrote during the early 12th century. If you consider Rurik a historical character, then you should also consider ancestors of Mieszko described by Gallus as such. Indeed most of modern Polish historians agree that father, grandfather and great-grandfather of Mieszko, described by Gallus, really existed.

However, Nestor's Rurik is rather similar to Gallus' Piast - not to Ziemowit, Siemomysł and Leszek (father, grandfather and great-grandfather of Mieszko).

Historians argue about Piast. Some claim that it is not a name, but a profession (Piast = piastun = equivalent of maior domus).

There's no way of telling what specific tribal group Rurik came from, but his name is definitely Germanic.

Rorik is Germanic. Rurik is not.

Of course some people claim that "Rurik" was a distorted form of "Rorik".

But if we go into name distortions, then practically everything can be denied.

Actually one of Scandinavian sagas - Egil's Saga - describes the story of 3 Irish slaves captured by Vikings, named Kori, Skorri, Thormod.

But these - Kori, Skorri and Thormod - are not Irish or Celtic names! These are Germanic names!

Can you explain why Irish slaves captured by Scandinavian Vikings had Germanic names ???

The ethnic geography of northern Europe was a lot different in the 9th and 10th centuries than later.

Yes - for example there was Slavic settlement in Scandinavia (especially Denmark), as evidenced by names of settlements and districts of cities.

And that was not "slave population", because villages and cities are not called after slaves. That was rather a form of peaceful "Nordsiedlung".

===========================================

BTW:

Check discussion in this thread (especially pages 20 - 46), if you are interested (it is about Scandinavians in Slavic lands and Slavs in Scandinavian lands):

http://historum.com/european-histor...ation-perceptions-vikings-41.html#post1786358

Domen said:
Probably the largest-scale one of all Slavic invasions of Scandinavia was the invasion of Konghelle in 1135.

This invasion is described in Snorri Sturluson's Heimskringla:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snorri_Sturluson

Here is a book discussing Heimskringla:

"Society and Politics in Snorri Sturluson's Heimskringla" by Sverre Bagge:

http://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft0f59n6wc;brand=ucpress

Excerpt from this book regarding the Slavic invasion of Konghelle:

Sverre Bagge said:

One such example is the attack on Konghelle by the Wends in 1135. This is told in great detail, according to contemporary eyewitnesses. It is dated exactly and placed in the right chronological order, between Haraldr's victory over Magnús in Bergen (January 1135) and Sigurðr slembir's arrival (summer/autumn 1136): the first warning came on the first Sunday after Easter (14 April 1135), whereas the attack took place on St. Lawrence's day (10 August) the same year. But the year is given as five years after the death of King Sigurðr, not the summer after Haraldr's victory, which is probably meant as an indication that it belonged to a different series of events.

Click to expand...

In the link below, you can find Heimskringla (available to read online):

http://lind.no/nor/index.asp?lang=&emne=asatru&vis=s_i_magnus_blinde_harald_gille

The Slavic invasion of Kunghelle is described in this part of Heimskringla:

http://s21.postimg.org/mtlm5k0zb/Konghelle.png

Here is this particular saga (unfortunately there is no English translation):

http://lind.no/nor/index.asp?lang=&emne=asatru&vis=s_i_magnus_blinde_harald_gille

I have Polish translation of the story about Slavic invasion of Konghelle from this saga.

According to Snorri Sturluson, Slavic fleet which invaded Konghelle in 1135 numbered around 650 ships.

William the Conqueror invaded England in 1066 with a fleet of similar size - up to 776 ships:

http://www.battle1066.com/wforce1.shtml

Regarding Scandinavians in Poland - there is a recent book about this written by Polish historians but published in English language:

"Scandinavian Culture in Medieval Poland", eds. S. Moździoch, B. Stanisławski, P. Wiszewski, Wrocław 2013

Table of contents:

Preface

Władysław Duczko, With Vikings or without? Scandinavians in early Medieval Poland. Approaching an old problem

Piotr Boroń, Norsemen and the Polish territories in the early Middle Ages - theories, ideas and speculations

Jakub Morawiec, Slavs and their lands in Old Norse literature

Leszek P. Słupecki, Polish rivers and waters in Old Norse mythology

Przemysław Urbańczyk, The eastern neighbours of the Piasts in the 10th century

Mateusz Bogucki, Before the Vikings. Foreigners in the lower Vistula region during the Migration Period and the origins of Truso

Marek F. Jagodziński, Roots of Truso

Wojciech Chudziak, Remarks on particular material traces of Scandinavian culture in Pomerania

Felix Biermann, A Slavic or a Viking Town? The excavations at Wolin? 1934/1941 and their contemporary interpretation

Błażej Stanisławski, Norse culture in Wolin-Jómsborg

Anna Bogumiła Kowalska, Original or imitation? Comments on the presence of the Scandinavians at the estuary of the Oder River in the Early Middle Ages

Kinga Zamelska-Monczak, Traces of Viking culture in Santok?

Krzysztof Jaworski, Ewa Lisowska, Aleksandra Pankiewicz, Błażej Stanisławski, Artefacts of Scandinavian origin from the Cathedral Island (Ostrów Tumski) in Wrocław

Mariusz Błoński, Antler sickle handle from Nasielsk. An example of the Pomeranian school of Scandinavian-Insular ornament from Mazovia

Zdzisława Ratajczyk, The cemetery in Ciepłe - current research results

Andrzej Buko, Michała Kara, Władysław Duczko, Iwona Sobkowiak-Tabaka, Bodzia: a unique Viking age cemetery with chamber-like graves from central Poland

Leszek Gardeła, Dead or alive? - "Chamber graves" and their inhabitants in the Old Norse literature and Viking-age archaeology

Andrzej Janowski, Are the chamber graves from Pień really Scandinavian?

Jerzy Sikora, Ethnos or ethos? Some remarks on interpretation of early medieval elite burials in northern Poland

George Indruszewski, Technological aspects of cultural identity: the case of early medieval shipbuilding and seafaring in the Baltic

Marcin Szydłowski, Possibility of identification of Scandinavian presence on the Polish territory in the light of petroarchaeological research

Paweł Kucypera, Piotr Pudło, The "Viking Sword" - true or false? On the importance of a certain terminological problem

And here a thread concerning Bluetooth's warriors: "Denmark - kingdom created by Danish king and Polish mercenaries ???":

http://historum.com/war-military-hi...created-danish-king-polish-mercenaries-4.html

===========================================

Regarding Wolin (a Slavic city with some Scandinavian presence - for example Harald Bluetooth died there):

Domen said:
As for Jomsborg - it is a semi-legendary city described (under this name) only by Scandinavian sagas.

But today historians identify Jomsborg with Wolin, because numerous traces of Scandinavian presence were found in Wolin.

Semi-legendary Jomsborg is mentioned by Scandinavian sagas, and semi-legendary Vineta by Slavic legends.

Some people identify also Vineta with Wolin. So it would be Wolin = Jomsborg = Vineta:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vineta

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jomsborg

Wolin was founded as a Slavic city of the Veleti.

Scandinavians were present there because they settled there later - some of them were refugees, like Harald Bluetooth.

On 21.09.967 Wolin became part of Poland after being conquered by forces of Mieszko I.

On 01.11.987 previously expelled from Denmark Danish king - Harald Bluetooth - died in Wolin.

Here is what Helmold of Bosau in his "Chronicle of the Slavs" wrote about it (here in German translation):

http://www.sagen.at/texte/sagen/sagen_historisch/ursprungs_erklaerungssagen/vineta.html

DER UNTERGANG VON JUMNETA (VINETA)

An der Mündung der Oder lag einst die sehr angesehene Stadt Jumneta, die den Barbaren und Griechen, die ringsumher wohnten, einen sehr berühmten Mittelpunkt des Verkehrs darbot. Zum Preise dieser Stadt wurden große und kaum glaubwürdige Dinge erzählt. Sie war in der Tat die größte aller europäischen Städte, bewohnt von Slawen und einer gemischten Bevölkerung von Griechen und Barbaren. Auch die hinreisenden Sachsen erhielten Erlaubnis, dort zu wohnen, freilich nur, wenn sie sich nicht öffentlich als Christen zu erkennen gaben; denn bis zum Untergange der Stadt waren alle Bewohner in heidnischem Irrglauben befangen. Was Sitte und Gastlichkeit anlangte, war kein ehrenwerteres und gutherzigeres Volk zu finden. Reich durch die Waren aller Nationen, besaß Jumneta alle möglichen Annehmlichkeiten und Seltenheiten. Die so wohlbegüterte Stadt soll ein König der Dänen, der mit einer sehr großen Flotte heransegelte, von Grund auf zerstört haben, doch sind noch Überreste von ihr vorhanden. Das Meer zeigte sich bei Jumneta in dreierlei Art. Die Insel, auf der sie lag, wurde nämlich von drei Gewässern umspült, eines davon war grün, ein anderes weiß, das dritte aber wurde unaufhörlich von wütenden Stürmen erregt.

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Vineta is also described by Adam of Bremen - actually Helmold copied & pasted all the info from Adam and added to this his own things.

Adam of Bremen described Vineta in present tense ("est"), while Helmold described it - for some reason - in past tense.

Helmold lived in period 1120 - 1177. He was a German missionary who was busy converting the Slavic Wagri to Christianity:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagri

He wrote his "Chronica Slavorum" already after the conquest of Pagan Slavic Obotrite and Veleti unions by Christian crusaders.

I can also give you English translation if you want.

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Abraham ben Jacob (10th century Jewish traveller from Spain) also described some major city of the Veleti, but he didn't mention its name:

"(...) And wrote Abraham the Israelite, son of Jacob: what they say about this city is true, I have been told about this city by Hotto, the Roman King*. To the west of this city live a certain nation belongng to the Slavs, which is called the nation of Welteba**. They live in areas adjacent to the lands of Mesko, from this side which is close to the West and close to the North. They possess a mighty city at the Ocean***, which has 12 gates. This city also has a harbour (...) They fight against Mesko****, and their strength in war is huge. They don't have any king, they don't want to be ruled by a single man, instead they are ruled by a council of elders. (...)"

* Hotto, the Roman King = Otto I, Holy Roman Emperor

** Welteba = Veleti (federation of several Slavic tribes)

*** Ocean = Baltic Sea

**** Mesko = Mieszko I, Polish Duke

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If you want to read about West Slavic realms and societies in what is now Eastern Germany, I recomend Eric Christiansen's book "The Northern Crusades".

Pagan West Slavic realms were warlike nations during that time (10th - 12th centuries). As Eric Christiansen describes:

Page 59 (of Polish edition):

"(...) Slavic societies were heavily militarized; that military organization developed during the 9th and the 10th centuries, as the result of living constantly between the Viking hammer and the Emperor's anvil, not even mentioning Danish kings and German bishops. (...)"

And as Christiansen points out, since that time the shoe was on the other foot because now Slavic Vikings (pirates) were raiding Denmark.

When it comes to those Slavic cities described above (for example by Helmold or by Abraham ben Jacob).

Those are not any "mythical" descriptions (BTW - also for example Thietmar describes Slavic Radogoszcz and other cities).

According to Eric Christiansen, "The Northern Crusades", pages 60 - 64 (of Polish edition), in 10th - 12th centuries there was a number of West Slavic cities which were much bigger than anything which could be found in Scandinavia - in Denmark only Slesvig was of similar size.

Pangur Bán · Apr 22, 2014

"Gallus Anonymus" is from the 12th century. Those Sagas are 13th century. Neither know what they're talking about (which is not to say they don't have oral or even literary sources, but these are scant, corrupt and subsequently rationalized to make sense).

The name Rurik/Roric is a dithematic Germanic name, consisting of two elements 'hroth' ('glory') and 'ric' (same as English 'rich'), e.g. Hrothgar, Eadric, etc. It is not a problematic name unless one is ignorant of Germanic naming elements and their attestation.

gay_Aleks · Apr 22, 2014

Do you think we could have a more tl;dr version?

Domen · Apr 22, 2014

Those Sagas are 13th century.

Snorri Sturluson's Heimskringla was written throughout late 12th (1100s) and early 13th centuries. The burning of Konghelle in 1135 by Pomeranians (at that time Polish vassals) is also confirmed by archaeology.

You surely know that most stories about Vikings are from Sagas written 200 years after events they describe?

And Nestor's chronicle was written how many centuries after the establishing of Kievan Rus ???

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Gallus doesn't know what he is talking about ???

I think you confuse Gallus with another one, Wincenty Kadlubek.

Gallus was working for Bolesław Wrymouth, as his court chronicler.

Gallus had 1st hand account on origins of Piast dynasty - from its members.

Pangur Bán · Apr 22, 2014

Domen said:
Snorri Sturluson's Heimskringla was written throughout late 12th (1100s) and early 13th centuries.

You surely know that most stories about Vikings are from Sagas written 200 years after events they describe?

And Nestor's chronicle was written how many centuries after the establishing of Kievan Rus ???

Egil's Saga and Heimskringla are both 13th century.

And yes, being a Viking-age historian specializing in historical texts and textual archaeology (the layering of sources behind the texts most people are more familiar with), I am aware of the dates of such texts.

But I am not following your logic. You were telling me that "3 Irish slaves captured by Vikings, named Kori, Skorri, Thormod." in Egil's Saga. I am saying, 'so what', 'big deal', 'what's your point', a 13th century Icelandic source got ancient history wrong. That's what you should expect. Though not sure what your point would have been anyway ... in truth you post so much for random reasons it is difficult to know when you think you are contradicting something I say, when you are trying to bring university of google to ignoramuses like me, when you are just caught up in something you find interesting ... you should take Tolni's advice about keeping your posts concise and point-based.

Physical appearance of Early Medieval Slavic people

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