What do people think of these?

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Dear Christ, but you're an arrogant child. Masada is actually engaging with you on this, to an extent which most people simply wouldn't bother, returning to the source material and walking you through the numbers, and the best you can do is call him a "liar"?

People here have been a lot more patient with you than I think you realise, and you're doing precious little to earn it.

Did you read all my direct quotations from the book or not? I've proven multiple times he's a liar and he can't stop responding because he doesn't want to concede it. Look at all the points he's dropped over the course of the conversation, and the ones he's brought up out of nowhere. I consider this more in line with harassment then walking me through the numbers.

If you're looking for some evidence he's a liar, why don't you go ahead and scour the book for racism yourself?
 
Mouthwash said:
Why? I don't particularly care, and if you're actually interested in why Friedman thinks so you can read his thoughts on Mexico.

I don't care about his other thoughts on Mexico, I care about this prediction he made about Mexico.

Mouthwash said:
Because the level of exploitation will rise? Meaning Japan will start actively interfering with Chinese politics?

How does one measure a "level of exploitation" and how is Japan's active interference in Chinese politics going to work? And why is this, presumably, costly approach to sourcing labor (or is it productive capacity?) any better than what Japan has now for very little cost?

Mouthwash said:
It's not my responsibility. You made the claims, you back them up:

Friedman made those claims. I'm just arranging them in a logical fashion and questioning how credible the resulting predictions (based on the totality of all of those claims) is.

Mouthwash said:
No, Mexican-Americans aren't going to universally feel a call to rise up and and take over the American Southwest. The only claim Friedman makes is that Mexican nationalism will have a resurgence and that Mexicans in the Southwest will eventually be divided from Americans along ethnic lines. There is literally nothing there to suggest that Friedman is even commenting on the qualities of Mexicans as individuals, other than this:

No, he's not, I agree. At no point does he say that Bill Richardson will turn-coat and become the governor of New New Mexico for the Mexican Occupation Authority. But he's certainly suggesting that Mexican-Americans are as a group potential traitors and fifth-columnists who might one day support enosis with Mexico in sufficient strength to carry off parts of the United States which is an extreme view actively promoted by anti-immigration extremists.

Mouthwash said:
I don't think that you haven't read the Next 100 Years, I think you assumed I didn't and and felt free to strawman it. First it was to get attention in your usual way, then through smoke-and-mirror tactics to divert attention from the fact that you haven't mustered up a argument against him that that couldn't be refuted by quoting a few paragraphs from the book.
I made no such assumption. I'm trying to critically engage with you on some of the more problematic aspects of Friedman's book.

***

Mouthwash said:
If you're looking for some evidence he's a liar, why don't you go ahead and scour the book for racism yourself?
You've literally missed the boat. I haven't called Friedman a racist. In fact I emphatically denied that he was. To quote myself:

Masada said:
No, I didn't [call Friedman a racist]. I called him out for buying into a narrative that's despicable and problematic at a lot of levels. But I didn't actually call him a racist for doing it.

A view you didn't subscribe to but certainly understood:

Mouthwash said:
Why is it despicable if it isn't racist? He's suggesting that a time might come when Mexican-Americans become nationalistic.

To which I responded, quoting Traitorfish:

Masada said:
You're being lazy on this. TF has already demonstrated that people can hold questionable views without being overt racists:

None the less, he makes use of tropes favoured by anti-Semitics without a great deal of criticism. Despite his qualifications, the "wealthy internationalist" elite he refers to aren't dukes and bishops, they're financiers and intellectuals, and are not merely guilty of cultural distance from the "commoner" owing (he claims) to divergent experiences of place, but of lacking any real experience of place and thus any authentic culture at all. This renders suspect, ignoble, incapable of civic virtue; in short, rootless cosmopolitans. While I don't intend to bring his character into question, it does cast doubt on the the robustness of his work, asks us to stop and think, wait, how does this guy actually imagine that the world works? - Traitorfish

It ought to follow then that George Friedman can use a trope favored by the far right without being insane himself. I also think it's despicable to suppose that Mexican-Americans are all potential traitors to the United States.

The next exchange is particularly... enlightening because it clearly shows that Mouthwash understands what I'm objecting too and even provides examples to show he understands. I also note that Mouthwash accepts that I'm not making a claim Friedman is a racist, but rather that the view is to quote myself "despicable".

Mouthwash said:
Why? If it's true, why is it despicable? Aren't Russians living in Ukraine potentially traitors? Aren't Turks in Greece, or Palestinians in Jordan or Lebanon? But no, they're just "ethnic conflicts" taking place in the savage outside world. So what can explain the double standard?

To this I replied:

Masada said:
I don't think any of those groups are potential traitors. Sure, some individuals might one day betray their country. But I don't assume that what holds true for some individuals holds true for everyone [and that's why the claim is disgusting].
 
I don't care about his other thoughts on Mexico, I care about this prediction he made about Mexico.

Yes, it deals with Mexico's economy. The Next 100 Years isn't a scholarly work; it doesn't have to be criticized on its own merits.

How does one measure a "level of exploitation" and how is Japan's active interference in Chinese politics going to work? And why is this, presumably, costly approach to sourcing labor (or is it productive capacity?) any better than what Japan has now for very little cost?

The first question is ridiculous. I can't predict those and I shouldn't have to. Japan, presumably, will exploit Chinese coastal regions to a degree that a centralized Chinese government would never allow.

Friedman made those claims. I'm just arranging them in a logical fashion and questioning how credible the resulting predictions (based on the totality of all of those claims) is.

No, you said that Poland could never catch up no matter what because Germany is just too powerful. You then said that there were three Chinese scenarios and that Friedman picked the least probable. You finished by saying that Germany, forty to fifty years in the future, will be better placed to control Eastern Europe than Japan would to a "Balkanized China." None of these assertions are argued for.

I made no such assumption. I'm trying to critically engage with you on some of the more problematic aspects of Friedman's book.

Than please respond to the inconsistencies I've pointed out between your criticism and what the book actually says.

No, he's not, I agree. At no point does he say that Bill Richardson will turn-coat and become the governor of New New Mexico for the Mexican Occupation Authority. But he's certainly suggesting that Mexican-Americans are as a group potential traitors and fifth-columnists who might one day support enosis with Mexico in sufficient strength to carry off parts of the United States which is an extreme view actively promoted by anti-immigration extremists.

What does it matter if anti-immigration extremists promote the view? How does that have any bearing on its accuracy? I'm sure there were nuts in 1830's Mexico who ranted about the US wanting to annex the entire northern part of their country. Stopped clock, etc.

You've literally missed the boat. I haven't called Friedman a racist. In fact I emphatically denied that he was. To quote myself:

To which I responded, quoting Traitorfish:

That's not what I said. It doesn't matter if you called Friedman a racist, you said there were racist overtones in his work. So I asked TF to see if there was anything in the book which seemed as such.

The next exchange is particularly... enlightening because it clearly shows that Mouthwash understands what I'm objecting too and even provides examples to show he understands. I also note that Mouthwash accepts that I'm not making a claim Friedman is a racist, but rather that the view is to quote myself "despicable".

I think you're confused about what "every Mexican being a potential traitor" actually means. There are two different ways this can be interpreted- to suggest that any given Mexican-American, taken randomly, would have a good chance of being a Mexican nationalist, and that any individual Mexican-American is psychologically capable of becoming a traitor to the United States. The former is obviously true (although the controversy is how we should deal with ethnic nationalism), the latter actually is racist and despicable. And you're equivocating the two.
 
I think you're confused about what "every Mexican being a potential traitor" actually means. There are two different ways this can be interpreted- to suggest that any given Mexican-American, taken randomly, would have a good chance of being a Mexican nationalist, and that any individual Mexican-American is psychologically capable of becoming a traitor to the United States. The former is obviously true (although the controversy is how we should deal with ethnic nationalism), the latter actually is racist and despicable. And you're equivocating the two.

What are you even talking about? Without being a self-parody, what are you arguing for after presumably reading Mr. Friedman's work?
 
I think you're confused about what "every Mexican being a potential traitor" actually means. There are two different ways this can be interpreted- to suggest that any given Mexican-American, taken randomly, would have a good chance of being a Mexican nationalist, and that any individual Mexican-American is psychologically capable of becoming a traitor to the United States. The former is obviously true (although the controversy is how we should deal with ethnic nationalism), the latter actually is racist and despicable. And you're equivocating the two.
 
That would seem more fittingly applied to your activity in this thread than to anybody else's.
 
I think you're confused about what "every Mexican being a potential traitor" actually means. There are two different ways this can be interpreted- to suggest that any given Mexican-American, taken randomly, would have a good chance of being a Mexican nationalist, and that any individual Mexican-American is psychologically capable of becoming a traitor to the United States. The former is obviously true (although the controversy is how we should deal with ethnic nationalism), the latter actually is racist and despicable. And you're equivocating the two.

Ah I see...

Not every single Chicano is a Mexichurian sleeper-agent possessed by the ghost of Oscar Zeta Acosta, waiting for the broadcast of the La Cucaracha tune to signal the begin of the reconquista...

...It's just that there's a good chance that any given individual of that ethnicity you come across will be one of them?

So how are those two mindsets different in any practical sense besides basic semantics?
 
That would seem more fittingly applied to your activity in this thread than to anybody else's.

Why? I've been typing out paragraphs, you've been making witty quips. It's a nasty habit of yours, to resort to humor when you don't have an argument.

Ah I see...

Not every single Chicano is a Mexichurian sleeper-agent possessed by the ghost of Oscar Zeta Acosta, waiting for the broadcast of the La Cucaracha tune to signal the begin of the reconquista...

I wanted to make similar crack in the post you quoted but this is just awesomeness.

...It's just that there's a good chance that any given individual of that ethnicity you come across will be one of them?

So how are those two mindsets different in any practical sense besides basic semantics?

In a practical sense? Not much. It is, however, morally wrong to suggest that every individual Mexican is capable of betraying his or her country. It's racist.

Clearer?
 
No, Mouthwash, it's not clearer. You criticise others for making flip comments, but you treat concern at the very dodgy things you're saying with complete exasperation as if those questioning them are idiots.

You say that it's racist to think that any given Mexican American is capable of betraying their country whilst insisting that it's just common sense to think that any of them might do so. If there is a difference here it's an incredibly subtle one that no-one else, including me, can see.

I also can't see how this is a discussion about history at all. Why shouldn't I just close this thread?
 
No, Mouthwash, it's not clearer. You criticise others for making flip comments, but you treat concern at the very dodgy things you're saying with complete exasperation as if those questioning them are idiots.

You say that it's racist to think that any given Mexican American is capable of betraying their country whilst insisting that it's just common sense to think that any of them might do so. If there is a difference here it's an incredibly subtle one that no-one else, including me, can see.

37.6% of boogs swear loyalty to the Great Zoog. If I meet a boog, I should therefore assume there's a good chance he has done so. Am I saying that there is an inherent quality to each boog which gives each individual one a 37.6% of being a Zoogian? No. That is racist. I am saying I am not in an epistemic position to pass judgement on an individual basis. Why? I do not know every zoog on an individual basis. Therefore, I have to judge them on a collective basis on issues regarding the Great Zoog. It isn't fair. But it is necessary in practice.

The two concepts are semantically very subtle. Hence the equivocation, and hence the exceeding frustration of having to constantly think up new ways to explain it. Might go a little easier if I knew statistics or probability theory or whatever the heck this deals with.

I also can't see how this is a discussion about history at all. Why shouldn't I just close this thread?

Go ahead. But it's turning interesting, so could you split off this little discussion and move it?
 
The two concepts are semantically very subtle.
But their practical consequences are the same, rite?
 
The difference is that in the latter case, you're somehow not allowed to accuse Mouthwash of reproducing a racist trope, which seems to be the only difference that actually matters to him.
 
No, Mouthwash, it's not clearer. You criticise others for making flip comments, but you treat concern at the very dodgy things you're saying with complete exasperation as if those questioning them are idiots.

You say that it's racist to think that any given Mexican American is capable of betraying their country whilst insisting that it's just common sense to think that any of them might do so. If there is a difference here it's an incredibly subtle one that no-one else, including me, can see.

I also can't see how this is a discussion about history at all. Why shouldn't I just close this thread?

I for one cannot imagine why you haven't closed the thread.
 
Well, this has been one of my biggest disasters on CFC so far. Which is saying something.
Don't be so harsh on yourself. Your thread advocating the creation on Bantustans was way, way, way worse.
 
Don't be so harsh on yourself. Your thread advocating the creation on Bantustans was way, way, way worse.

I actually call that one a success. Trolling is an art form.
 
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