Tahuti
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What if that Israeli want Israel to recognise the Armenian genocide?
Armenian Genocide
- Thread starter NovaKart
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What if that Israeli want Israel to recognise the Armenian genocide?
I still dont think the holocaust is a good reason for the creation of a state. In the words of Hugh Trevor Roper: the creation of the state of Israel solved a european problem and created an arab one. But again, thats off topic.
Tahuti
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To stay on the topic, you do realise that Woodrow Wilson supported an Armenian state largely because of the Armenian genocide? Besides, you appealed to hypocrisy, even though there wasn't necessarily any.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
States generally don't need reasons for their creation.
Armenia already existed because the Armenians and Russians had driven the Turks out. Wilson's support was behind the facts on the ground i.e. the establishment of an independent Armenia, which the Entente powers had already acquiesced too. Wilson's sole intervention into the Armenian Question, the Wilsonian Borders, miserably failed because he couldn't marshal Senate support and had no real means of enforcing his will on the Turks. So the Turks thumbed their nose at him, drove the Armenians out of Western Armenia and then acceded to Armenia independence at its current, rump, borders. United States support wasn't worth jack.Kaiserguard said:
timtofly
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I think that you mean "excuses" and not "reasons". I have yet to see a state existing merely on the fact it bore the name state. States are formed for a lot of reasons, but using an "excuse" may not be a solid one.
r16
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have read the McCarthy link ; can't claim what he has said is like 100% correct and not only because ı have no right to be in any real historical discussion . He says the Ottomans could not do nothing about the trouble makers because they feared foreign intervention . That's not the exact whole reason why many in the Sublime Porte were "allied" to the Armenians .
ı have long been ranting on the glorious strategic vision of the New Turkey ; only proper to remark on the days they were like so outdone and outshone by the "Old" . First of all , when Abdülhamit was the Sultan, the Ittihad was hand in hand with the Armenians . This much lauded Millet system of course made it inevitable that every ethnic group in the country would remain a seperate entity under the command of "own leadership" and the "cleansing" done by the Armenian extremists as described in McCarthy meant a substantial amount of people , however minor they were percentage-wise , would be taking orders from a bunch of people with proven lack of any moral standarts ; Armenians could be still be controlled by buying their leaders . Or else . Ittihad grew among the officers engaged in Counter-Insurgency where the action takes place in a "limited" area -as far as the individual commanders in direct contact are concerned . Highly politicized and where pressure on one single individual can make or break the day , such an experience leads to horseblinds on people . Leading to assumptions that they -personally- can make a difference on a far larger scale with their personalities and all . Armenian bandit leaders were just right partners for the Ittihad's finest ; they could be liquidated later on if money was not enough . Funnily enough the said Armenians felt exactly the same about the said Ittihadists .
then we lost the Balkans ; the final days of the Ottomans were on us and what a glory for the world ... Alas , the Armenians had "missed" the bus long ago , the establishment of Greece in the 1800s made it certain that their primary ethnic rivals , the Greeks , would have full total "foreign" support even with certain obvious reservations about the Greek potential while the Armenians were to be simply pawns between England and Russia . They needed facts on the ground - a country if you will - so that they could peddle their strategic importance so that the Greeks would not be allowed to drive them -the Armenians- out of places like Istanbul or the Marmara Region ... Ittihad offered an election alliance for 1914 but by then the writing was on the wall . That's why Ittihad also offered an autonomous Armenian state -with a capital in Erivan so that the glorious Armenians would somehow turn on the Russians , Erivan being under Russian control for decades if not a whole freakin' century .
ah glorious 1914 , when two European Governors were on their way to take over their posts , the two parts of Anatolia ; the Turkish segment of the Ottoman Empire given to the direct control of the "West" so that our final demise could be arranged without "bürokratik" resistance - Germany was offering the rest of the Great Powers ready and willing co-operation : All sorts trade possibilities in Berlin's Arabian colonies to come . Armenians laughed at the Ittihad offers ; what's Erivan compared to nice houses on the Bosphorus ?Where they would all have their summer vacations and all , Istanbul inevitably becoming an International hence non-Greek entity . A century on , it's got to be a lie that this peace process got sold in the East with visions of the harems the kids will collect from the Western parts of "their" country ...
enver went to war , not to save the country or "his" palaces from damned Armenian bandits but he believed in Germany , its victory and future prospects . The Tsars would be locked into Moscow or something and the key thrown away and Germans would need people to manage Central Asia . That's exactly why he took a whole army mid-winter and personally led a division ( by walking the point) up to Sarıkamış to lose it all . A year ago it had been Edirne where he had waited for the recce to return to report it was all clear , to take personal command of the Cavalry to become the Conqueror of Edirne , leaving Infantry and incidentally Kemal in the dust ... Sarıkamış was to be the first of a thousand places he would conquer ... Instead he turned morosely back to Istanbul , though not before sending a telegraph asking about the health of the dog he had left at home . Without any comments on the 75 000 men who froze or something at the Allahüekber Mountains . Had to look cool to the German staff officers ; they might otherwise send negative reports on their future man-in-Central Asia .
oh yes , yet another shift in the "Turkish"-Armenian relationships . Talat and Cemal were so ready to indict Enver for the end of the Ottoman Empire after his defeat and to go over to the Armenians , because you know the only use , say , Venizelos could have for them two was filling and hanging them on the wall as trophies . And yet they could be so useful for a prosperously rising Armenia unfortunately in conflict with a wildly expanding Greece . A German victory in the WW1 ? Er , why do you suppose that would matter ?
from that point on it's only a fault of the French and in 2015 they should like sued for any -cide word that comes up . Only because the Captain of the French battleship Bouvet bedecked his vessel with all sorts of flags , lobbed a few shells at the shore installations on March 18 , 1915 and then drove it onto some mines -let's debate it later whether the French had them all "mapped" or something . Which led to a vigourous Turkish response which up to that moment was lacking and the whole thing was almost a firing drill for the Allies : everybody likes to claim that his battery of 75 mm cannons sunk a huge warship , something "half of the world" , with one shot . HMS Irresistable followed , it was Ocean's captain's fault that he got himself sunk while hovering around Irresistable . Alas , the Brits were now like skittish and like they were not coming on the 19th ... Horrors in Istanbul ... With entire future plans in flames , like any assumption of "negotiated" peace and stuff . With such a "defeat" in the Straits , the British and the French would turn to their regular programming and start rebellions all-over the place . Rebellions end victoriously when the Rebels hang the Loyalists from handy lampposts and where would that leave Talat and Cemal and even Enver ?
ı have long been ranting on the glorious strategic vision of the New Turkey ; only proper to remark on the days they were like so outdone and outshone by the "Old" . First of all , when Abdülhamit was the Sultan, the Ittihad was hand in hand with the Armenians . This much lauded Millet system of course made it inevitable that every ethnic group in the country would remain a seperate entity under the command of "own leadership" and the "cleansing" done by the Armenian extremists as described in McCarthy meant a substantial amount of people , however minor they were percentage-wise , would be taking orders from a bunch of people with proven lack of any moral standarts ; Armenians could be still be controlled by buying their leaders . Or else . Ittihad grew among the officers engaged in Counter-Insurgency where the action takes place in a "limited" area -as far as the individual commanders in direct contact are concerned . Highly politicized and where pressure on one single individual can make or break the day , such an experience leads to horseblinds on people . Leading to assumptions that they -personally- can make a difference on a far larger scale with their personalities and all . Armenian bandit leaders were just right partners for the Ittihad's finest ; they could be liquidated later on if money was not enough . Funnily enough the said Armenians felt exactly the same about the said Ittihadists .
then we lost the Balkans ; the final days of the Ottomans were on us and what a glory for the world ... Alas , the Armenians had "missed" the bus long ago , the establishment of Greece in the 1800s made it certain that their primary ethnic rivals , the Greeks , would have full total "foreign" support even with certain obvious reservations about the Greek potential while the Armenians were to be simply pawns between England and Russia . They needed facts on the ground - a country if you will - so that they could peddle their strategic importance so that the Greeks would not be allowed to drive them -the Armenians- out of places like Istanbul or the Marmara Region ... Ittihad offered an election alliance for 1914 but by then the writing was on the wall . That's why Ittihad also offered an autonomous Armenian state -with a capital in Erivan so that the glorious Armenians would somehow turn on the Russians , Erivan being under Russian control for decades if not a whole freakin' century .
ah glorious 1914 , when two European Governors were on their way to take over their posts , the two parts of Anatolia ; the Turkish segment of the Ottoman Empire given to the direct control of the "West" so that our final demise could be arranged without "bürokratik" resistance - Germany was offering the rest of the Great Powers ready and willing co-operation : All sorts trade possibilities in Berlin's Arabian colonies to come . Armenians laughed at the Ittihad offers ; what's Erivan compared to nice houses on the Bosphorus ?Where they would all have their summer vacations and all , Istanbul inevitably becoming an International hence non-Greek entity . A century on , it's got to be a lie that this peace process got sold in the East with visions of the harems the kids will collect from the Western parts of "their" country ...
enver went to war , not to save the country or "his" palaces from damned Armenian bandits but he believed in Germany , its victory and future prospects . The Tsars would be locked into Moscow or something and the key thrown away and Germans would need people to manage Central Asia . That's exactly why he took a whole army mid-winter and personally led a division ( by walking the point) up to Sarıkamış to lose it all . A year ago it had been Edirne where he had waited for the recce to return to report it was all clear , to take personal command of the Cavalry to become the Conqueror of Edirne , leaving Infantry and incidentally Kemal in the dust ... Sarıkamış was to be the first of a thousand places he would conquer ... Instead he turned morosely back to Istanbul , though not before sending a telegraph asking about the health of the dog he had left at home . Without any comments on the 75 000 men who froze or something at the Allahüekber Mountains . Had to look cool to the German staff officers ; they might otherwise send negative reports on their future man-in-Central Asia .
oh yes , yet another shift in the "Turkish"-Armenian relationships . Talat and Cemal were so ready to indict Enver for the end of the Ottoman Empire after his defeat and to go over to the Armenians , because you know the only use , say , Venizelos could have for them two was filling and hanging them on the wall as trophies . And yet they could be so useful for a prosperously rising Armenia unfortunately in conflict with a wildly expanding Greece . A German victory in the WW1 ? Er , why do you suppose that would matter ?
from that point on it's only a fault of the French and in 2015 they should like sued for any -cide word that comes up . Only because the Captain of the French battleship Bouvet bedecked his vessel with all sorts of flags , lobbed a few shells at the shore installations on March 18 , 1915 and then drove it onto some mines -let's debate it later whether the French had them all "mapped" or something . Which led to a vigourous Turkish response which up to that moment was lacking and the whole thing was almost a firing drill for the Allies : everybody likes to claim that his battery of 75 mm cannons sunk a huge warship , something "half of the world" , with one shot . HMS Irresistable followed , it was Ocean's captain's fault that he got himself sunk while hovering around Irresistable . Alas , the Brits were now like skittish and like they were not coming on the 19th ... Horrors in Istanbul ... With entire future plans in flames , like any assumption of "negotiated" peace and stuff . With such a "defeat" in the Straits , the British and the French would turn to their regular programming and start rebellions all-over the place . Rebellions end victoriously when the Rebels hang the Loyalists from handy lampposts and where would that leave Talat and Cemal and even Enver ?
r16
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that's why they finally got the guts to do what McCarthy underlines as lacking , a response to Armenian "Terrorism" . Which applied only to Orthodox variety in the East of Anatolia as they were singularly unco-operative for the German Missionaries in the area . Every single freaking Armenian community leader knew the voyage to the deserts of Syria could be far easier with kissing the Cross in the hands of some German instead of their own Clergy . German choices made an huge impact on who would get an Ottoman Army Detail for protection and who would not . And that Detail is a "tiny" detail in which parties of refugees or something would be robbed by the Kurds and which parties would not . Makes a difference to the percentage of people who made it down there alive .
you might well believe it's irrelevant . Even anti-Kurdish propaganda as related to to the butchery of late 20th Century but it's a thing . On Eyecandy some weeks back people -pro new Turkey people- were rolling their eyes while telling that the "peaceful Kurds" were so into loving this new Turkey , because if there was no Turkey , Armenians would come and drive a million Kurds - just a million- out of villages that once belonged to Armenians .
talkin' of foresight in Turkish Statesmen ? Exactly ! Orders signed one day before the Allied landing in Gelibolu ... Nobody must have felt like telling them that this marker for the landing zone drawn to a more inhospitable location within the erring range of average compass reading in junior and not so junior Naval officers . If you are sayin' "What?" all the British accounts suggest it was the tide that moved it away . In case you are still sayin' "What?" all the Turkish accounts suggest an Infantry Lieutenant saw the RN types leaving it in the sea and after the night fell , he just moved it away in the knowledge if the enemy is doing something , breaking it is obviously correct . Anyhow , Istanbul in the dark of invasion feared Armenians . Had they known it they might preferred keeping "good" relations with them , in case -you know- they had to escape to the hinterland with an inevitable Allied ground victory . All the bragging about the performance of the flea bitten Turkish soldier in the Great War doesn't hide the fact that it was an even bigger surprise for the Turkish Commanders , who were kinda ticket punching until the day of final defeat ... By 1916 there was even talk of going to India .
which reinforced the belief in the top rank Ittihad offices that future was rosy and the country to be divided into 3 or something . Enver had committed himself like totally to Central Asia . Cemal was to be King of Arabia -oh yes - and he hated those unwelcome guests Talat was refusing to take back , 'cause you know there was this Russian offensive of '16 into Eastern Anatolia that did quite a mileage . And Arabs starved , too .
so why the kangoroo courts of 1920s failed to do something about it ? Was it because the Brits felt the Ittihad could be useful to contain the Reds ? Was it because the Brits didn't want to provoke the Kurds with a suspicion that they would come and put them on stakes or burn them for robbing and raping at random as if they ever cared for human rights ? Was it because the Brits felt all the judges could be found one morning with their throats slit ? Was it because the Brits felt the barbarous Turk would be up for a trade of lenient sentences in return for surrendering the country to the Greeks ?
so why doesn't the world hear about it ? Are you kidding ? Opposing the Turks is what makes a man . Anyone who doesn't oppose the Turks should wear a skirt and take up knitting . That apart , the existance of Armenia as a Soviet Republic made any attemp to discuss as "Yeah, yeah. We are Allies against the Communist menace, no need for you to bother." The Russian favourite on that was when Armenia insisted to have nuclear weapons on its own and had its Soviet voting "Yes" on the proposal . Like the whole Red Army would not be enough to protect them or take over what is theirs or something ...
later on it was -say- some French guilt ; when they were a Vichy guy each one of them it was Armenians who were here and there in the Resistance and it would be like hostile to the French honour . And God forbid , an intent to discuss German involvement in getting rid of a race or something : We lasted "800" years with the Armenians , Germans couldn't stand 8 months ... Would make a mockery of worldwide condemnation of Holocaust with it being "preceded" and nothing ever been done about "it" . Without a discussion of numerical extent of casualties because you know opposing the Turks is what makes a man .
so , so what's the new thing on it ? Wonderously glorious ... Blame it on the bloodthirsty Old Republic and the Turkish racism that made it possible , convert the entire country into a "working Sunni Muslim state" so that an half apology would be enough without enraging the voter base . There was an eagerness to name the numbers , too . Though less than a million , got to look like realistic . And -of course- trust the Americans to stop any attempts on part of the Armenians for compensation ... That's solely why Canadians allowed a monument in Canada for the Air Attache killed in 1982 by the ASALA ; to polish the reputation of the Little Imperialist aka the Turkish Foreign Minister . So that he could score yet another victory like getting a monument ; only to be converted into an "historic" understanding and so on . Ah yes , and he is "surprised" apologies are not accepted by the Armenians . Whatever ...
mind you though . When whatever that will happen to US happens , the relevant Canadian Foreign Minister will be in court -for being a jokester like they have been sharing Turkish loss or something . Advise he hangs around with the Mayor of Toronto , so that he can claim he was smokin' at the time .
you might well believe it's irrelevant . Even anti-Kurdish propaganda as related to to the butchery of late 20th Century but it's a thing . On Eyecandy some weeks back people -pro new Turkey people- were rolling their eyes while telling that the "peaceful Kurds" were so into loving this new Turkey , because if there was no Turkey , Armenians would come and drive a million Kurds - just a million- out of villages that once belonged to Armenians .
talkin' of foresight in Turkish Statesmen ? Exactly ! Orders signed one day before the Allied landing in Gelibolu ... Nobody must have felt like telling them that this marker for the landing zone drawn to a more inhospitable location within the erring range of average compass reading in junior and not so junior Naval officers . If you are sayin' "What?" all the British accounts suggest it was the tide that moved it away . In case you are still sayin' "What?" all the Turkish accounts suggest an Infantry Lieutenant saw the RN types leaving it in the sea and after the night fell , he just moved it away in the knowledge if the enemy is doing something , breaking it is obviously correct . Anyhow , Istanbul in the dark of invasion feared Armenians . Had they known it they might preferred keeping "good" relations with them , in case -you know- they had to escape to the hinterland with an inevitable Allied ground victory . All the bragging about the performance of the flea bitten Turkish soldier in the Great War doesn't hide the fact that it was an even bigger surprise for the Turkish Commanders , who were kinda ticket punching until the day of final defeat ... By 1916 there was even talk of going to India .
which reinforced the belief in the top rank Ittihad offices that future was rosy and the country to be divided into 3 or something . Enver had committed himself like totally to Central Asia . Cemal was to be King of Arabia -oh yes - and he hated those unwelcome guests Talat was refusing to take back , 'cause you know there was this Russian offensive of '16 into Eastern Anatolia that did quite a mileage . And Arabs starved , too .
so why the kangoroo courts of 1920s failed to do something about it ? Was it because the Brits felt the Ittihad could be useful to contain the Reds ? Was it because the Brits didn't want to provoke the Kurds with a suspicion that they would come and put them on stakes or burn them for robbing and raping at random as if they ever cared for human rights ? Was it because the Brits felt all the judges could be found one morning with their throats slit ? Was it because the Brits felt the barbarous Turk would be up for a trade of lenient sentences in return for surrendering the country to the Greeks ?
so why doesn't the world hear about it ? Are you kidding ? Opposing the Turks is what makes a man . Anyone who doesn't oppose the Turks should wear a skirt and take up knitting . That apart , the existance of Armenia as a Soviet Republic made any attemp to discuss as "Yeah, yeah. We are Allies against the Communist menace, no need for you to bother." The Russian favourite on that was when Armenia insisted to have nuclear weapons on its own and had its Soviet voting "Yes" on the proposal . Like the whole Red Army would not be enough to protect them or take over what is theirs or something ...
later on it was -say- some French guilt ; when they were a Vichy guy each one of them it was Armenians who were here and there in the Resistance and it would be like hostile to the French honour . And God forbid , an intent to discuss German involvement in getting rid of a race or something : We lasted "800" years with the Armenians , Germans couldn't stand 8 months ... Would make a mockery of worldwide condemnation of Holocaust with it being "preceded" and nothing ever been done about "it" . Without a discussion of numerical extent of casualties because you know opposing the Turks is what makes a man .
so , so what's the new thing on it ? Wonderously glorious ... Blame it on the bloodthirsty Old Republic and the Turkish racism that made it possible , convert the entire country into a "working Sunni Muslim state" so that an half apology would be enough without enraging the voter base . There was an eagerness to name the numbers , too . Though less than a million , got to look like realistic . And -of course- trust the Americans to stop any attempts on part of the Armenians for compensation ... That's solely why Canadians allowed a monument in Canada for the Air Attache killed in 1982 by the ASALA ; to polish the reputation of the Little Imperialist aka the Turkish Foreign Minister . So that he could score yet another victory like getting a monument ; only to be converted into an "historic" understanding and so on . Ah yes , and he is "surprised" apologies are not accepted by the Armenians . Whatever ...
mind you though . When whatever that will happen to US happens , the relevant Canadian Foreign Minister will be in court -for being a jokester like they have been sharing Turkish loss or something . Advise he hangs around with the Mayor of Toronto , so that he can claim he was smokin' at the time .
Tahuti
Writing Deity
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All true. I was simply trying to illustrate that the issue of genocide was raised for a number of states including Armenia.
State's exist because those that have interest in that state are capable of preserving it.
Really? I've literally never heard that claim made, anywhere. Jewish settlement of Ottoman Palestine started in the 19th century, and most immigrants today are of Middle Eastern or Russian descent.
But of course, that's not politically expedient, is it?
Hm, what? My quote was about how hypocritical Israel is to not recongise another huge genocide, the Armenian one, while focusing all the time on its own genocide.
I think you are just joking now (immigrants today?) But i never read before someone claim that the majority of the Jewish population of Israel are descended from the Middle East. (Russia is not in the middle east, so not sure how that fits into your sentence there).
Maybe you mean they descend from king David, though
Tahuti
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The proposed Wilsonian Armenia had borders stretching far outside the Armenian majority areas.
Except that you explicitly made that claim:
55% of the Jewish population of Israel, including me, are Sephardim. Holocaust survivors never made up more than a fragment of Israel's population and at best the Holocaust only helped Israel gain international recognition in its early years.
As for the hypocrisy, Kaiserguard is right. Israel has nothing to gain by upsetting Turkey other than a moral leg up regarding an early 20th century event that didn't involve them anyway. Turkish collaboration with the Nazis is also overlooked because of their country's importance in the Middle East.
Cool. How is that different than other countries caring equally little for the pre-middle 20th century jewish genocide, if their own politics can do better without it? (eg Iran). The Croeso-horses are even more obvious now on that golan hill.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
"Watch out, Ustase and Turks, Ustase and Turks!" (in another version of translation it was "Be afraid, fascists and Turks, fascists and Turks!"):
Link to video.
It really doesn't make a difference to me what country says what in its propaganda. I care about what the Iranians are doing.
