SGOTM 13 - Gypsy Kings

In my test games, I've usually started a Warrior as initial build, switched to Work Boat with Fishing, and then finished the Warrior, which as R1 says above, is only about 3 turns to complete. The 2nd Warrior can Sentry on the Grass Hill 3E or the Grass Hill 2NE to watch for Barb Galleys, until he is needed for the city garrison of City #2.

Once we get Fishing, we'll have the option of continuing to work the Corn for fastest growth, or slightly slower growth by working a Clam, trading 1 for 2 . The extra would help the research rate. Which is the better option?

Grifftavian said:

In my test games, I've usually started a Warrior as initial build, switched to Work Boat with Fishing, and then finished the Warrior, which as R1 says above, is only about 3 turns to complete. The 2nd Warrior can Sentry on the Grass Hill 3E or the Grass Hill 2NE to watch for Barb Galleys, until he is needed for the city garrison of City #2.

Once we get Fishing, we'll have the option of continuing to work the Corn for fastest growth, or slightly slower growth by working a Clam, trading 1 for 2 . The extra would help the research rate. Which is the better option?

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That is a good question, I always keep working the corn until the 1st nets are done and then switch to that obviously. At size 2 I work FPH for max hammers to get the rest of the WB's built ASAP!

If we switch to the clams un-netted, and work the FPH, we actually STOP growing altogether. We gain 2 which is converted to 2 and cuts 1 turn off of mining. I think that might not be a bad trade off this early. The "STANDARD" thinking is that FOOD is ALWAYS best option.

@bcool...what sort of discussions did OSS have around food -vs- commerce in this type of situation? I am obviously asking because you guys won last time, and I will continue to ask as we move forward.

Ronnie1 said:

If we switch to the clams un-netted, and work the FPH, we actually STOP growing altogether. We gain 2 which is converted to 2 and cuts 1 turn off of mining. I think that might not be a bad trade off this early. The "STANDARD" thinking is that FOOD is ALWAYS best option.

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We would only stop growing for the few turns that it takes to complete the first Work Boat; then we net the Clams and we're back to growing with +2 . Finish the Warrior, then crank out another Work Boat hopefully about the time we grow to size 3, then work two Clam Boats & the FPH for a total of 10 4 & 4 at size 3. Then perhaps a 3rd WB to do some exploration, and start a Settler at size 4 working the unimproved Corn?

EDIT: testing this, working unimproved clam & FPH at size 2 stops growth and reduces build time for WB from 43 turns to 11 turns. So a little longer period of no growth than I thought.

@bcool...what sort of discussions did OSS have around food -vs- commerce in this type of situation? I am obviously asking because you guys won last time, and I will continue to ask as we move forward.

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This question can't be answered in isolation of a larger plan. If the commerce means we get bronze working 3 or so turns earlier than sacrificing a little food now is worth it if we can whip another workboat faster so we can make up for the lost food, etc.

And if we abandon the warrior build so we can get the Oracle 3 turns earlier is it worth it? If we are planning to go for the Oracle there does seem to be at least some risk that an AI beats us to it. Is finishing the warrior build worth losing the Oracle?

The early improvement of our tiles can make perhaps a bigger difference than losing 10 hammers early on. All of this needs to be verified by testing of course.

In OSS they extensively tested different MM decisions to maximize the short and long term outcomes especially in the beginning.

Even "small" decision like the warrior build they would compare the short and longer term consequences.

I am on board with the settle in place approach ... if all of the simmers are in agreement. Even without a test, I can envision how two cities on Elba gives us the best flexibiliy to use all that food in the early game.

Unless someone has a well tested alternative (which I don't recall seeing in the thread so far) and can argue for the merits of something else, go for it!

As to roster, go ahead and put me at the back end, as I seem to be in a perpetual state of highly active RL issues at this time.

Why don't we name our capital "Elba", and then name the second city "Wrist"?

The first city west of Elba can be "Shoulder" ...

dV

bcool said:

This question can't be answered in isolation of a larger plan. If the commerce means we get bronze working 3 or so turns earlier than sacrificing a little food now is worth it if we can whip another workboat faster so we can make up for the lost food, etc.

And if we abandon the warrior build so we can get the Oracle 3 turns earlier is it worth it? If we are planning to go for the Oracle there does seem to be at least some risk that an AI beats us to it. Is finishing the warrior build worth losing the Oracle?

The early improvement of our tiles can make perhaps a bigger difference than losing 10 hammers early on. All of this needs to be verified by testing of course.

In OSS they extensively tested different MM decisions to maximize the short and long term outcomes especially in the beginning.

Even "small" decision like the warrior build they would compare the short and longer term consequences.

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All that makes perfect sense, thanks!

The switch to un-netted clams speeds up BW by 1 turn.

Abandoning the initial build is definitely an option, 10 hammers early seems like a lot, but when we are at size X it is probably only 1 turn. If we whip enough, we won't need the MP for a while anyway.

I rolled the names onto my desk, literally, that's how I do it, initials on paper rolled into balls and thrown like dice! They of course roll out into some sort of linear fashion, and if there is a tie, I roll those again. I took mab OUT of the roll since he already moved the warrior, and I figured the 1st turnset was the most boring, and if he wanted it that bad he could have it! dV got pulled out of the order and put at the end of the line per his request. As ALWAYS, if you need to skip or slide your position for any turnset, please just ask and accommodations will be made of course.

The Roster order for the Gypsy Kings for SGOTM 13 is.....

mabraham = leading off, UP NOW, please prepare your PPP(should be the easiest one of the game)
adrianj = on deck
Ronnie1 = in the hole
bcool = waiting
grifftavian = waiting
Thorn = waiting
da_Vinci = waiting

Let's all have fun and work our best to bring home a medal!

da_Vinci said:

...
Why don't we name our capital "Elba", and then name the second city "Wrist"?

The first city west of Elba can be "Shoulder" ...

dV

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Apparently you didn't sleep through all those meetings at the Bad Joke Convention in San Antonio Or is this a side effect from over dosing on Texas BBQ & Tex-Mex Cuisine?

Turnset length??

I want to keep turnsets SHORT and PRECISE!

The 1st turnset will be the LONGEST of the game because there is so little to do. I would suggest that the 1st set plan to STOP at the beginning of WB#3.

Grifftavian said:

Apparently you didn't sleep through all those meetings at the Bad Joke Convention in San Antonio Or is this a side effect from over dosing on Texas BBQ & Tex-Mex Cuisine?

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Nah, it is a "side" effect of too much exposure to those charts on how to cut up a "side" of beef, which were on display at the steakhouses!

dV

R1, is there a favorite past PPP template that you would want to resurrect and post for folks to use this game?

dV

da_Vinci said:

R1, is there a favorite past PPP template that you would want to resurrect and post for folks to use this game?

dV

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Yes thanks!

Here is an example of what we need to be aware of.

Pre-Play-Plan OVERVIEW Txx-Txx

BUILD QUEUE
By city

UNIT MOVES

WORKER ACTIONS

CITY MM
Tiles and specialists

DIPLOMATIC ACTIONS
AI interactions
Trade deals
etc...

STOP CRITERIA
T39
Any DoW(example)

OTHERS
Research: ???
Civic change: None
Religion change: None
Cities settled:

Ronnie1 said:

Turnset length??

I want to keep turnsets SHORT and PRECISE!

The 1st turnset will be the LONGEST of the game because there is so little to do. I would suggest that the 1st set plan to STOP at the beginning of WB#3.

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I'd rather end of fishing - let the test gamers catch up, and we can properly decide what to do with the invested in the first warrior build. Or is that going to be a barracks build?

Some other things I just picked up from looking at old SGOTM threads.

Please remember to backup your autosaves after your turnset to enable review later.

You are free to upload before the end of your last turn if there are actions left that you don't really care about, and which you think the next player may do different.

The most tricky topic was to identify the underlying limitation of our game: are we research limited or production limited?

I am also looking over some things that we specifically have done in the past SGOTM's to see if I can distinguish any patterns that have helped or hurt our results.

SG #2 GK's formed and finished 13th with a Conquest Victory, Postions 1/2/3 all won by Conquest.
SG #3 There were 2 games played at the same time, Vanilla Civ4 and Warlords. GK won BRONZE in the Vanilla race with a Diplomatic Victory. Positions 1/2/3 in both competitions won by Diplo.
SG #4 Odd game where we had to LOSE to Spaceship, GK finished 7th and did not achieve the game conditions. Positions 1/2/3 were the only teams that did achieve the conditions.
SG #5 GK finished 12th, terrible showing, Spaceship loss, 1/2/3 won by conquest.
SG #6 GK finished 6th, Conquest Win, 1/2/3 all Conquest wins
SG #7 GK finished 6th, Domination Win, 1/3 won by DIPLO, #2 won by Domination
SG #8 GK finished 5th, Domination Win, 1/4 won Diplomatic, 2/3 won by Conquest
SG #9 GK finished 5th, Spaceship Win, Spaceship victory was defined
SG #10 GK finished 10th, Conquest Win, Conquest was defined
SG #11 GK finished 5th, Diplomatic Win, 1/2/3 all Diplomatic Wins
SG #12, GK inactive, bcool with OSS finished 1st , dV/R1/Griff with X-Team finished 4th.

What I got from this review is that we were actually making strategic or thinking or planning errors as to how best to meet the game conditions when those were not clearly defined. When the conditions were defined, we actually have been fairly competitive with the exception of SG #10.

adrianj said:

I'd rather end of fishing - let the test gamers catch up, and we can properly decide what to do with the invested in the first warrior build. Or is that going to be a barracks build?

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Is there some reason we can NOT make that decision BEFORE we start session #1? Alternatively, we can pause the 1st set after fishing. Basically to get to fishing you hit end turn 10 times after moving the warrior a bit, nothing that really effects those 10 turns IMO, or am I missing something?

Here is another PPP template that I pulled from the Plastic Ducks thread.


What your plan should cover:

1. Technologies

* What techs are you aiming for? (One, a beeline ex. Literature, part-research for trading)
* What trades will you attempt with who and when? (When to sell for gold ex. first opportunity or wait for more, specify the leader(s), waiting for a wonder to finish so the AI get failure gold)
* Are we planning a Great Person bulb?


2. Dealing with AIs

* Resource trade negotiations
* Espionage assignment
* Open borders (cancel or allow)
* AI demands (resources, cancel trades, who do we send packing or not, technologies, war, religions, civics)


3. City placement - mostly in the beginning

* Where are you planning on sending a settler?
* Are you sending a worker along?
* Is the land fogbusted/do we have an escort?
* Initial city builds (Monument/Granary etc...)
* Tile improvements around this city(food, hammers, commerce)


4. General micro

* Special tile assignations (starve city for specialists, switch to growth etc.)
* Tile swapping with other cities
* Whips
* Build order (infrastructure/military/settlers/workers/wealth/science)
* Dealing with happy/health caps
* Worker improvements and moves


5. Civics and Religion

* Are you planning on civic switches/do we need to acquire the techs? (Caste for border pops, slavery for prod...)
* Are we expecting a religion change?


6.War - if applicable

* Refuse/accept AI war demands
* Bribing civs to declare war or for stopping war
* War plan (who, how many units and how to acquire them , which cities to strike, scouting prior to DoW,...)


7. Bigger picture

* Gifts (city, gold, techs,...)
* What AI do we try to please
* Goals for the future
* Diplo manipulation
* Extras
. Bigger picture[/b]

Ronnie1 said:

What I got from this review is that we were actually making strategic or thinking or planning errors as to how best to meet the game conditions when those were not clearly defined. When the conditions were defined, we actually have been fairly competitive with the exception of SG #10.

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Ah, yes, SG #10 ... the da_Vinci uber blunder!

dV

adrianj said:

I'd rather end of fishing - let the test gamers catch up, and we can properly decide what to do with the invested in the first warrior build. Or is that going to be a barracks build?

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If we think we may be throwing out the hammers we make before fishing is in for WB, are we sure that a worker first isn't better?

dV

da_Vinci said:

Ah, yes, SG #10 ... the da_Vinci uber blunder!

dV

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In actuality, MY uber blunder on T3-4 when I did not pause to discuss the Gandhi options when I discovered he was that close cost us much more in the long run. I still feel that cost us any opportunity medal in that game, , and brings up a really GREAT point.

If ANYTHING happens that is unexpected, please stop IMMEDIATELY and have some discussion on the issue, we have plenty of time!