QSC-C2r - Hannabaline & the 300 Spartans - Regent

Here is a view of my military and world in -170bc.

I am in Anarchy to revolt to Monarchy in 4 turns. I will go on playing the QSC to check what date I can complete Domination. I hope lots of us are doing the same so we can compare which tactics were better.

Turns 91-100

750bc
we trade maps with Iriquios
Carthage gets horseman/set swordsman
moved horseman
worker roads

730bc
fortify horseman

710bc
We get Philosophy/ set math
oops we are running out of iron
worker in leptis minor mines

690bc
Carthage gets swordsman/set another

670bc
fortify swordsman near Boston
worker roads
wake up SOD at Carthage and move towards Boston

650bc
SOD goes to border of Boston

630bc
We move into Boston

610bc
Lincoln asks us to move and we say NO
sentry military in Boston

590bc


570bc
more military sentried inside Boston
workers mine and road
We keep producing swordsmen

The save
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/stwils_QSC_C2r_bc570.sav

Turns 101-110

570bc
Carthage has 3 unhappy folks. Will keep an eye on this

550bc
Horseman and archer from Washington came up and killed our swordsman in Boston
we move and sentry other hopeful militia in Boston

530bc
The Americans capture Leptis Minor. (The war is not going very well )


510bc
We try to recapture Leptis Minor and our swordsman dies...

490bc
The Americans keep attacking us in Leptis Minor - our warrior dies...
Well, thank God our SOD finally takes Boston!
Boston disappears and our men are standing around trying to figure out what to do now

470bc
One more Amercan attacks us and is killed
Thieves is up in smoke and we give them a clown for now
We move some our wounded on our territory to heal

450bc
Order is restored in Thieves
BUT - the Americans attack our horseman and kills him
And they are moving into Leptis Manna
Our archer in Leptis Manna kills the Am. archer and is now elite
And we get rid of their wounded horseman
We change production in Carthage to settler

430bc
Our archer kills another American (Hmm. The war may be going better...)
We send soldiers from Thieves down. We want to take back Leptis Minor

410bc
We send troops into Leptis Minor
But a Persian seems to be going toward Carthage

390bc
Damn Persian settler built a city right on the spot - near Carthage. (Maybe we should have shot him last turn.)
Our settler is built and moves. But his mission to rebuild Boston is gone. Persian city is sitting there.

370bc
We send troop into Leptis Minor and fortify them
Our settler moves looking for a place to settle. (Damn Persians...)

The save

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/stwils_QSC_C2r_bc370.sav

Originally posted by zenga
I know you did a mass warrior upgrade (by saving on research) but can you give any pointers on how you used your troops? My main difficulty in early warfare is how exactly to concentrate my forces and how to cover the distances involved.

Another question, for all the players, is how and when did you use the whip? Did you whip troops or mainly buildings? This is another area where I am inexperienced and would appreciate help. Personally, I mainly pop rush temples with maybe an occassional barracks, harbour or galley. Also, what changes do you make to this when going for a military victory condition?

Click to expand...

You are right: proper logistics is very important for early and quick warfare. I concentrated on building warriors (I had 17 after the first 60 turns and did a mass upgrade shortly after).
Having enough workers is the key. I always have enough workers (as soon as an AI offers a worker I buy them, but that will probably change with the high costs in PTW), that I get a road network right behind my troops.
Since the AI starve their cities back to size one very often, they rush a worker or two, they are yours when the city is auto-razed. Larger cities you have to decide whether to raze them, use the workers for building roads or leave the city intact. In conquest games it is always better to raze the cities, in a domination game, it depends on how many worker you already have and how long it takes to replace the razed site with your own city.

I almost never rush troops, only in extreme danger situations.
Normally I would rush a temple in conquered cities to get the people happy and build culture toprevent them from flipping, in domination games I rush a temple or a library, whatever is cheaper, also in own cities to cover more territory.
In this game basically all temples I had at the end where pop-rushed. I also rushed the galley, because I bougt mapmaking so late, that otherwise I would not have had enough time to start the invasion of the other continent.

Ronald

Ronald:

I can't download any of your posts. I haven't had any trouble with any of the other person's posts. You said you had a problem in getting the uploads set up. Could you possibly try again with a couple of them. I would really like to see what you did to get such a successful result.

Turns 111-120

370bc
we swap world maps with the persians

350bc
We take back Lepsis Minor - but now the city disappears
Once again our men stand around trying to figure out what to do

330bc
Our settler moves to where Lepsis Minor used to be. (We'll rebuild this city!)

310bc
Leptis Minor rebuilt

290bc
We trade world maps with Aztecs

270bc
we move some swordsmen from Utica etc down nearer New York (that might be our next city to attack.)

250bc
We are not building anything but swordsmen right now.
move swords. nearer NY

230bc
we kill an American spearman wandering up

210bc
Lincoln wants to make peace. we say NO
Our wounded warrior kills Am. wounded horseman near
Am. archer near Philly kills our warrior

190bc
We move swordsmen into NY

170bc
We take NY! There is one resister.
We send in some troops to control trouble

The save

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/stwils_QSC_C2r_bc170.sav

Originally posted by zagnut
Ronald:

I can't download any of your posts. I haven't had any trouble with any of the other person's posts. You said you had a problem in getting the uploads set up. Could you possibly try again with a couple of them. I would really like to see what you did to get such a successful result.

Click to expand...

I don't know whats wrong with the link, but you can go directly to the uploads3 folder and download it from there directly.
The files are named:

Ronald_QSC_C2r_bcnnnn.SAV

where nnnn is the year. I have checked, all files are there and I could download it from the folder without any problems.

Ronald

OK, Ronald, thanks. I got the files that way.

QSC C2r 570BC-170BC


--Turn 1--
750BC
Carthage builds horseman-starts settler. Rusicade builds settler-
starts horseman. Declare war on aztecs and move forces in.

730BC
Cadiz founded-warrior started. Teotihuacan captured-warrior
started. Aztec spearman took out two veteran swordsman-oach!
Traded Math, Philosophy and Literature to Germans for Polytheism.

710BC
Leptis Minor builds swordsman-start settler.

690BC
Carthage builds settler-start hoplite. Hippo builds swordsman-
start hoplite. Theveste builds swordsman-start settler.
Texcoco destroyed. Capture Persepolis-settler started.
Persians destroyed.

670BC
Utica builds horseman-start swordsman. Leptis Magna builds
swordsman-start settler. Oea builds settler-start swordsman.
Leptis Minor, Leptis Magna and Washington changed to temple.
Cirta founded-warrior started. Tlatelolco captured-warrior
started. Carthage changed to swordsman.

650BC
Rusicade builds horseman-start settler.

630BC
Carthage builds swordsman-start same. Sabratha builds horseman-
start settler. Hadrumetum builds swordsman-start settler.

570BC
Discovered Republic-start currency. Carthage builds swordsman-
start settler. Declared war on Iroguois. Nora founded-warrior
started. Rusiddir founded-warrior started. Tenochtitlan
captured-settler started. Make peace with Aztecs for
Construction and 14g.
--End of Turn 1--


--Turn 2--
550BC
Utica builds swordsman-start settler.

530BC
Hippo builds settler-starts same.

510BC
Carthage builds settler-start spartan.

490BC
Sulcis founded-warrior started.

470BC
Leptis Minor builds temple-start settler. Tenochtitlan
changed to temple.

450BC
Discovered Currency-start Feudalism. Leptis Magna builds
temple-start settler. Theveste builds settler-start same.
Sabratha builds settler-start same.

430BC
Carthage builds spartan-start library. Salamance captured-
temple started.

410BC
Oea changed to settler. Saldae founded-warrior started

390BC
Persepolis builds settler-start temple.

370BC
Rusicade builds settler-start swordsman. Rusiddir builds
warrior-start settler. Carthago Novo founded-warrior started.
Traded Currency and Construction to Germany for world map
and 30g to take them to next age. Traded Republic to
Germany for Monotheism.
--End of Turn 2--


--Turn 3--
350BC
Utica builds settler-start same. Hippo build settler-
start same. Malaca founded-warrior started.

330BC
Allegheny destroyed-Iroguois gone. Gades founded-warrior
started.

310BC
Washington builds temple-start spartan. Sabratha builds
settler-start same.

290BC
Tenochtitlan builds temple-start spartan. Carthage builds
library-start marketplace. Leptis Magna builds settler-
start same. Sulcis builds warrior-start settler. China
lands settler on MY island and I end up with two more
workers. Brought Germany in on war against China.

270BC
Cirta builds warrior-start settler.

230BC
Oea builds settler-start spartan. Declared war on Aztecs.
Capture Tlaxcala and destroy Aztecs-start spartan.
Calaris founded-warrior started.

210BC
Discovered Feudalism-start Chivalry.

190BC
Tingis founded-warrior started.

170BC
Lol founded-warrior started.

6 Barb workers captured on center island.
--End of Turn 3--


570BC
370BC
170BC

750 – Continuing war against Aztecs.
730 – Pyramids built in Carthage.
710 – Whip Barracks in Sabratha – my northernmost city - and on the edge of my current conquests. This is the first time since purchasing the game at Christmas 2001 that I have whipped an improvement or a unit.
690 – Aztecs destroyed. Declare war on Iroquois. Take their first town – Niagara Falls – which was their only town with a source of iron within its cultural area. The plan is to defeat the Iroquois as soon as possible and then defeat the Americans and the Persians. Decrease science and increase luxuries to head off unrest in Carthage.
630 – Having dispatched some pesky barbs, I am still rolling up the Iroquois. They are down to 4 towns, but the distance between them is great. Only spearman for defense. I will dispatch some Swordsmen to the American lands.
610 – Discover Republic but don’t switch while in middle of Iroquois war. Will switch when destroy Iroquois and move troops toward America and Persia. Then will use a Spartan to trigger Golden Age while in Republic.
570 – My army in the north is advancing on the Iroquois capital.

---End of turn 100---

550 – I split my northern forces and send Horsemen against the western cities which are only 1 pop. The Swordsmen will carry on to the capital. Hopefully this will hurry the downfall of the Iroquois a bit faster and allow my forces to turn their full attention to the Americans.
530 – The decision to split forces is a bad one. The western Iroquois towns are well defended and I lose 2 of my 4 Horsemen.
470 – Swordsmen take Iroquois capital. One Worker captured.
410 – War in north is taking longer than expected because of distances between cities. Decide to change government to Republic.
390 – The Americans take advantage of my Anarchy to declare war on me. This is probably a bad idea on their part.
370 – Unfortunately, I am not paying attention and the Americans capture Leptis Magna. I take it back the same turn. Forget to save at the end of 370 but save at the beginning of 350.

---End of turn 110---

350 – First American city falls.
330 – Golden Age triggered.
270 – Trade China Republic for Construction, World Map and all their gold (54). None of the other civs have any techs, luxuries or money. This annoys me so I declare war on Persia.
210 – Only Washington is left in America. The Persians are fighting hard and I doubt I will eliminate them before 170 BC.
170 – Persia proves pesky. But the situation is not in doubt. It will just take more time than General Cracker has provided.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Zagnut_QSC_c2r_bc570.SAV
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Zagnut_QSC_c2r_bc350.SAV (copied at beginning of 350BC instead of end of 370BC)
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Zagnut_QSC_c2r_bc170.SAV

The world at 170 BC:

I've been reading through the reports and have a question to ask. Am I the only one who didn't get to trade after mapmaking? I got the starting techs of course like most did. But after I got mapmaking I bummed out totally on tech trade. None of the civ's where even close to trade anything with me. When I discovered the other continent they where all 3-4 techs behind me! So I resorted to giving greece 4 techs so that I could trade for his freebie in the middle age.

My gambit in this game was to get as soon as possible to Chivalry and run the last cities down on the starting continent. But with absolutely no AI techs to help me along it was just impossible to achieve that(I was 1 turn from chivalry in 170BC).

Otherwise I wonder what decides when a horseman retreats after loosing. I found that it happened in 50% of the cases, so I guess that's the generic chances for it to happen.

Otherwise I commend Ronalds strategy for waiting to link iron to his cities. I also had a sizeable surplus in gold most of the game, but I only upgraded 3 warriors. The rest of my Swords where made from scratch. Filling up fast with cities is another golden move. Not too dense, but also not too far when that corruption eliminates any chances of making a few shields pr turn. I failed to make the 'inner ring of cities' complete when I didn't expand southwards to the jungle south of the starting position. In effect that mean I lost 20% of my most productive cities for the entire game. I could easily have cleared a few of those jungletiles and had a nice little city going there early in the game. I also noted that no one in the Regent group seemed to get a GL and that all saved the GA to the last 30 rounds or so. Any other comments on what made your game successfull or broke is welcomed since it seems we will be waiting a while for the hard stats from Cracker.

----

I made a picture to show how I would've settled my cities to get that zero corruption inner ring, and an outer low corruption ring.
I made a new pic that more clearly shows the surrounding are around cart.


That would've given me 12 cities instead of 7-8. Of course I would miss out on the juicy spots next to rivers and lakes. But seeing as my cities didn't go above size 6 except for a few cases, that was no consern in this short gamescope

Nice graphic, Singularity. In theory I guess I agree with you. The placement of cities should be as you describe. However, when we are developing our cities we don't have the hindsight you now possess. Decisions are made because of the "darkness" that are not always the best. For instance, I moved Carthage one square to start. If I had left it in the original position I would have had the elephants within the city boundary.

Also, you sometimes want to form a city in a particular place to deny a resource or a luxury to your competitors.

I try not to hold to a certain formula with regard to the placement of my cities. I like to expand as quickly as possible and get as many resources as possible. Sometimes this means that I will form a city far away from my central core and fill in later. This may not be the best way to maximize my score, but I think it is more fun.

Yes I do exactly the same reg. city placement Zagnut !
Nicer to place next to resource, river (avoid the acqueduct is major boost), lux, etc...none of that OCP crap

Originally posted by zagnut

Decisions are made because of the "darkness" that are not always the best. For instance, I moved Carthage one square to start. If I had left it in the original position I would have had the elephants within the city boundary.

Also, you sometimes want to form a city in a particular place to deny a resource or a luxury to your competitors.

I try not to hold to a certain formula with regard to the placement of my cities. I like to expand as quickly as possible and get as many resources as possible. Sometimes this means that I will form a city far away from my central core and fill in later. This may not be the best way to maximize my score, but I think it is more fun.

Click to expand...

Originally posted by Skyfish
Yes I do exactly the same reg. city placement Zagnut !
Nicer to place next to resource, river (avoid the acqueduct is major boost), lux, etc...none of that OCP crap.

Click to expand...

Yes, but my makeup includes at least 2 warriors pr city, so that would eliminate the need for early luxury. I know that the knowledge now makes it easy to overlook my ignorance at the start, but I'll try to recapture what I knew through the initial rounds:

1. I founded my city to the forest SW of start pos. Fairly soon I knew I had cattle by the river SE of car. BTW, I will never again miss out on making that early granary like i did. If I would encounter a similar situation I would've allmost certainly made my second city SE of the cattle. That way I could micromanage the tiles as I produced settlers or workers, and get two fairly desent settler factories up and moving fast.

2. Granted I thought as you did skyfish with regards to size 6+ cities before construction. But such aggressive games like this will allmost certainly exclude much growth beyond size 6. I see that instead I fell victim to impairing corruption in some of my cities, like the one I founded quite early on the fur.

3. Iron tiles where not discovered untill I had at least a few good cities up and running. My move to capture the three visible irontiles would have been the same if had gone with the tight build or strategic build that I actually made. And as I said I would wait to link iron untill I had a good army of warriors to be upgraded.

That 33-50% and even 25% corruption bites quite deep into your early strength, I just say that in this particular case, and any other early conquest scenarios - making tight cities will help you to swiftly reach a size where you can stop defending your cities and go on the offensive.

However, what's particulary hard with this build is that the infrastructure will have to be micromanaged carefully as each city produce a settler, worker or whip a temple. For a long time all the cities will share improved tiles as they grow and diminish in the early settler rush, that's one of the basic things that the progress of seasoned and clever civ'ers look like an impossible task for new players - micromanagement skills, I've more than once thought "That growth is just impossible - he must've gotten nothing but wandering nomads from the goodie huts!". I have a hard enough time keeping my cities from rioting in the early game.

Going for an infinite city sprawl build might not be as entertaining as capturing early luxuries and claiming 'sweet spot's' on the map, but IMO it's the right tool for this game and the start conditions our settler had with a fair ammount of land on all sides.

You are probably right that an infinite city sprawl was better for this game because the game had a limited purpose. None of us were in it for the long haul.

It's quite interesting to read the different opinions about early city placement, so I want to share my thoughts as well.

The goal was domination on a small map, therefore, I thought I need a good settler factory with settlers every 5 to 6 turns I dedicated my capitol to this task by building the early granary(interestingly enough it seems I am the only one choosing my starting location). For early warfare the difference between regular and veteran units is very important, so I built in the next three cities barracks immediately.

General I go for a relatively dense build, placing my cities on hills next to river (no aqueduct, defensive bonus using the most worthless tile for the city center). Connecting resources and luxuries are in my opinion more important than a theoretical optimal city placement.

For the given 120 turns, I think my strategy was very well suited. It would be very interesting for me although, whether to wait longer for the irst wars and then proceed quicker with knights is giving a better time for actual domination.
If I have time enough, I am trying to play my game till actually reaching domination. If I am able to do it, I will post my result in this thread. Maybe others could do as well.

Ronald

I also gave the start some thought and decided to build 2 settler factories and 2 barracks cities. Unfortunately my second settler factory didn't turn out too well.

I also wondered whether to start a war early or late. I chose late and invaded to the north. You apparently invaded earlier than I and to the south first. You ended with a better result than I, so all things being equal (which they never are), early was better.

It would be nice if we could see how the Emperors are doing. I wonder what the thinking is over there. They all seem reluctant to post their final 30 turns. Maybe there is a $10,000 prize that we don't know about and no one wants to reveal their ending until Cracker has posted the interim stats.

Maybe after reading our posts at the regent level they don't want to post their slow progress

Originally posted by Ronald
If I have time enough, I am trying to play my game till actually reaching domination. If I am able to do it, I will post my result in this thread. Maybe others could do as well.

Ronald

Click to expand...

I was originally going to let the game be as it was in 170BC. But I decided to see how long it would take me to reach domination, I would've guessed max 30 rounds, but it took me 45 rounds to eat enough tiles, surprisingly many as I thought I had it after 35 rounds or so. Here is a short review of the turns and a screen of the victory year. I didn't put my soul into this, and if you feel this doesn't belong here yet pls edit my post Cracker.

-------

150BC: Chivalry researched. Change to 10% tax and start researching theology. Send all horses to closest city with barracks. Change buildorders to knights, temples in new cities and two galleis. Hanging gardens in Car.

130BC: Capture Niagara Falls. I now have 9 knight upgraded. Need every gold now for the remaining 9 HM upgr, but still 10% research, but change research to Engineering.

110BC: Usual stuff. Need to settle SE part of continent, new barb camp appears there. Order settlers from my 2 size 6 cities that has stopped to grow.

90BC: One barb warrior will reach one of my undefended cities in the south.

70BC: The barb warrior stole a whooping 4 G from my warstressed treasuries.

50BC: Captured Iroquois capitol Salamanca with the Oracle. Most of my knights have reached the frontlines now.

30BC: Found Oea some 8-10 tiles NE of Car. Capture Grand River. Lost one SH attacking Allegheny. Hurried two galleis in Arbela and Boston.

10BC: Capture the last Aztec city of Catlixlauaca, so long Monty. Capture Oil Springs. Capture Allegheny. Iroquois now has one last city remaining, Tonawanda in the north. My workers has been working overtime to connect the new cities since the former owners apperantly still tried to figure out how to build a road. I havent really thought about it, but noone has built the pyramids yet, switch to pyramids in car.

10AD: Some riots in LMi and Salam, send out the clowns.

30AD: Capture Tonawanda, exit Hiawata. I now have 18 knights, own the continent, and are allmost finished linking all cities with roads. My citycount is 25.

50AD: Found Hadremeutum. All HM upgraded to knights, 19 in total now, 1. galei reach the straits to the greek city Corinth on Cape West of my continent. Will keep the good relation to alexander to both avoid his hoplites, and speed up the conquest of the other continent. I will near the city of delphi and get a ROP, and use the roads there that connect the rest of the continent. My knights will be all over Germany in a few rounds, now if i could just get the quickly over...

70AD: Give Alex chiv and get Rop, first boatload lie ready to embark outside Delphi. The only minor hindrance now will be Chineese Riders, otherwise this should go very smooth from now on.

90AD: 4 Knights on other continent. Spot chineese galley in the continental strait.

110AD: 6 Knights on the other side.

130AD: Hurry harbour at Oil Springs. SAVE MADE.

150AD: 7knights, 3SM over.

170AD: Found Cadiz 2 tiles NW of Teotihuacan. Hurry galei at Oil Springs.

190AD: Bring some workers over to make additional roads to hurry up the unit transportation to the german border.

210AD: Now I have 6 SM, 20kn and 3 workers on, or èn route to the other continent.

230AD: A few more rounds now...Hurry a few temples in high corruption areas. Order some new settler.

250AD: zzzzzzzz

260AD: Pyramids built in Car. Order Cathedral. SAVE MADE.

270AD: Founded Cirta near spice colony in south. Rushed a few temples. Declare war on Germany.

280AD Capture Berlin. A few knights are redlined, no casualties.

290AD Capture Konigsberg. Fortify all wounded units outside Berlin, consider flipping to be highly likely.

300AD: Capture Leipzig. 1 Kn dies trying to capture Frankfurt. Hurry Settler in Berlin.

310AD: Capture Hamburg, 1 Kn dies.

320AD: Capture Munich and Frankfurt. Settle Nora on the old continent. Soon war on China. Make peace with the germans and get the city of Cologne on the deal. That city is on the much talked about slave island in the south.

330AD: Keep positioning my units for a short victorious war with China.

340AD: Found Russadir 3 tiles N of Berlin.

350AD: I declare war on Chineese and start with attacking Canton. One Kn dies in the attempt.

360AD: Capture Beijing and the hanging gardens. Capture Hangchow. Few promotions, and not a single GL yet.

370AD: Capture Canton, Mao where kind enough to leave a catapult for me. For some reason most of his units are warriors and not SM.... And I havent seen one single Rider. Still he has both iron and horses hooked up.

380AD: Alex cancells ROP, fine by me - purpose served. Found Suicis 4 tiles SE of Salamanca. Capture Shanghai. Rush settler at canton. SAVE MADE.

390AD: Capture Xinjian.

400AD: Found Saldae on the new continent. Found Carthago Novo 4 tiles SW of Tenochtitlan.

410AD: Found Malaca SE of Washington. Finally got my harbour at one of the bordertowns on the new continent. Mucho happiness now.

420AD: Capture Tsingtao, the last Chineese settlement on the new continent. Sue for peace and get Republic on the bargain. Mao has his last city on the small 'slave continent'. Shouldnt be so far away from domination now. Will rush off some temples on suitable places.

430AD: Movin units to the greek border, rushing temples.

440AD: Hmmm, I really gotta DL mapstat soon.

450AD: Cultural expansion everywhere. Finished researching engineering. Start invention.

460AD: OK, gotta move on Alex then.

470AD: Found Gade 3 tiles NW of Hamburg. Hoplites hurt. Lost one knight trying to take Delpi. Captured Sparta. Forgot all about taking the last german town on the continent, Heidelburg will fell next round.

480AD: Capture Delphi. Capture Heidelburg.

490AD: Capture Athens and Sun Tzu's.

500AD: Capture Pharsalos.

510AD: Found Calaris 2 tiles N of Tenochtitlan. Not a single flip in the entire game, quite impressive. Not a single GL, not so impressive. Adjust Lux tax to 50% awaiting domination end.

520AD: Made peace with Bismarck. Tried to grasp Corinth from Alex, but he refused. It must be only a tile or two from domination now, unless all the black areas are landareas...

530AD: DOMINATION!!!! 5335 points.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Singularity_QSC_C2r_520_AD.SAV

If anyone wanna have the other saves I made in this period I can provide them, but I really don't wanna fill more stuff into the UL archives then stricktly neccesary.

Hi Singularity,

Great game

This shows the value of your knights. I am not sure that I can come close to this finishing date with horsemen and swordsmen.

Ronald