QSC-c1 "Irritated Mao" game progress.

2510 BC (I) - :mad: A barb hits, and kills pop in Beijing - I would rather have lost $16 in cash. This is brutal in a QSC.
2310 BC - Trading time has arrived.
Writing to America for contact India, $3.
Writing to India for Mysticism, $7.
I only do this deal, due to the space race: Writing to Zulu and England for $10 each.
It actually pays to keep the AI going as fast as possible.
2270 BC - I saw no restrictions, so I buy a English worker for $26.
I love having a tech laggard, $22 and Masonry buys Iron Working from India.
2190 BC - Fate is weird some times - I frag a barb camp, and buy a worker from India for $25 the same turn.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Q1-LKENDTER-2190BC.zip
(I) The first palace expansion occurs.
2110 BC - This is one of those tedious MM games, and constantly having to fix the tiles used by Beijing and tweaking the luxury rate to maximum income after every settler built.
2070 BC - Canton is formed on the gold hill, iron is secured, and a nice help to my income.
1990 BC (I) - We don’t even rate on the most advanced civs list - this feels more like emperor, not monarchy. What is scary is civs I haven’t contacted are top of the list.
1870 BC - Nanking is formed as flood plains city that claims luxury #1 - spices.
I buy an English worker for $1/turn and $8 - I have that little cash to spare.
1830 BC - We lose an exploring warrior trying to kill a barb camp :(
Normally I would have bypassed, but with cash so weak I had to try.
(I) Literature is researched, beginning on philosophy.
1790 BC - It is trading time.
I sell literature to India for Horseback, Math, tm, and $11 - I love selling at 2nd civ prices.
I sell literature, wm to Zulu for Map Making, tm, and $16 (all cash).
I sell tm to India for $6 (all cash)
I sell literature to England for tm, $36 (all cash).
I sell literature to America for tm, $38.
I sell wm to America for $15 (all cash).
Every civ is broke except me with $120.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Q1-LKENDTER-1790BC.zip
1700 BC - Tsingato is formed.
Patience is a virtue - India suddenly has $25 (barb camp slaughter), so I sell wm to him for wm and $25.
1650 BC - We beat India by 1 turn to fragging a barb camp for $25.
How you can tell a space race game - Philosophy under priced to India for wm, $19. I want the AI to keep up as long as possible researching paths I am not.
I sell philosophy to Zulu and America to finally get their wm.
1625 BC - Xinjian is formed - another gold mine city with fresh water.
1575 BC - I am just not lucky with barb camps this game - another warrior dies trying to take one out.
1550 BC - The first luxury is on the road net. Chengdu is formed.
1525 BC - Scratch a barb camp - plus $25.
I finally decide to establish embassies - I see the typical AI stupidity, Washington is size 1, growth in 4, and settler completes in 4.
The state of the empire after 60 turns - 7 cities, 2 settlers I/P, 3 workers +1 I/P, 3 slaves, 9 warriors.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Q1-LKENDTER-1525BC.zip
 
A bit of a warning to lead off this turns report: The save files I have attached are zipped to fairly normal size but they are some of the files effected by the compression software crapola that I experienced around Thanksgiving when you unzip them they will be 10 to 15 times normal size and will load like mud. If you use one of these save files to test play forward or continue the game, your autsave files may jump to 120 to 140MB (yes, megabytes) in size.

I have hex editted the save files down to cut out 50% of the scum that was introduced by the compression bug but still it leaves them huge for anyone who does not have a fast computer.

I can keep the game going but it is only through the grace of a very fast CPU and two huge hard drives.

So just be carefully out there. ;)

------------------

Turns 31-40 through 2190 BC
2550 BC (turn 31) – Warrior3 has joined the choke point blockade.

2510 BC (turn 32) – Discovered Writing . Warrior4 out of Beijing defeats English warrior and promotes to veteran. Trade Shaka Writing and contact with the English for 38 gold, CB, Wheel, and contact with Abe. Trade Abe contact with Libby and Writing for contact with Gandhi plus BW and 1 gold. (note: Writing was almost worthless to Abe on its own so he must be close to researching it on his own.) Gandhi has nothing, zip, nada to trade. Raise luxuries to 10% to keep Beijing happy.

2470 BC (turn 33) – Found Canton on the south choke hill to block traffic and to get wine. Elite Warrior2 (5/5) kills an English warrior on the Blockade. Blockade Warrior3 kills an English warrior and promotes to veteran. Libby’s army is dead and slaves move to hook up wine. Warrior4 heals in Beijing, luxuries back to 0%. See our first barb warrior north by the Zulus.

2430 BC (turn 34) – Micromanage food in Beijing. Made peace with Libby and got Horseback Riding, Iron, Math, Mysticism and 13 gold. Libby no longer has a tech lead.

2390 BC (turn 35) – Luxuries up to 10% to keep Beijing happy. Micromanage assignments in Canton and Shanghai. (wine connect by road.
2350 BC (turn 36) – Settler out of Beijing heads to central hill by horse. Barracks in Shanghai.
2310 BC (turn 37) – Found Nanking to link up horses. Warrior3 (4/4) moves to garrison Shanghai.
2270 BC (turn 38) – Hooked up horses. Warrior2 (4/4) patrols south of Shanghai for barbs. Warrior4 moves northwest.
2230 BC (turn 39) – North Warrior1 is parked on a hill next to barbs.
2190 BC (turn 40) – Barbs emerge from the east of Beijing by the hut. (looks alot like Lee's problem but we are almost prepared.) Warrior4 follows mountains northwest. Micromanage food/shields in Beijing.

Turns 41-50 through 1790 BC
2150 BC (turn 41) – Micromanage research to conserve cash. Micromanage food in Beijing. Horseman out of Beijing to deal with barbs. Luxuries to 10% to keep Beijing happy. More barbs come from west mountains near Libby.

2110 BC (turn 42) – Discovered Literature . Warrior4 meets the pesky English scout near iron mountain. Trade Masonry to Gandhi for a slave. Elite Warrior kills western barb warrior to defend wine. Horseman kills eastern barb warrior.
2070 BC (turn 43) –Barracks in Canton.
2030 BC (turn 44) – Horseman out of Shanghai heads northeast toward hut. Horseman (3/3) garrisons Beijing. Machiavelli says we are the “happiest nation in the world.” I didn't think Machiavelli was an expert on happiness.
1990 BC (turn 45) – Settler out of Beijing pops the hut and gets 25 gold. Horsemen move east to explore and get rid of barbs. Luxuries to 0%.
1950 BC (turn 46) – Horseman disperses Ainu camp for 25 gold. Set embassy with Abe for 56 gold to change his outlook. Recovered 9 gold by selling him a ROP he cannot use.
1910 BC (turn 47) – Barracks in Nanking and our cave gets grass. Trade Libby world map and Literature for Philosophy and Map Making . Trade Abe Philosophy and our world map for his world map. Found Tsingtao on east gold hill. Luxuries to 10% to hold Beijing happy.
1830 BC (turn 49) – Settler out of Beijing heads to west gold hill. Micromanage food/gold in Beijing. (conscript barb warrior to the north kills our (3/3) warrior fortified on a hill).
1790 BC (turn 50) – Settler out of Shanghai heads to hook up furs. Horseman out of Canton patrols west.

Turns 51-60 through 1525 BC
1750 BC (turn 51) – Worker out of Beijing moves to connect Tsingtao. Horsemen are fanning out to subdue/control the territory and seek promotions.
1725 BC (turn 52) – Founded Chengdu to get furs for everyone.
1675 BC (turn 54) – Killed a camp for 25 gold.
1650 BC (turn 55) – Horseman out of Nanking. Trade Shaka Maps and Literature for Polytheism . plus 37 gold.
1625 BC (turn 56) – Killed a barb camp by the Zulus for 25 gold. Micromanage food/shields in Beijing.
1600 BC (turn 57) – Killed barbs on the south coast for 25 gold.
1575 BC (turn 58) – Killed barbs over by India for 25 gold. Forestry near Beijing contributes 20 shields to Library.
1550 BC (turn 59) – Horsemen out of Canton and Shanghai. Galley out of Tsingtao heads east. "Holy batcrap", there are 5 barb galleys all over the place, looks like Salamis to me.

1525 BC (turn 60) – A barb horseman jumps out of the woods and eats one of our workers. Library in Beijing. Our galley survives a barb galley attack and makes contact with the Greeks. Trade Alex Math and Polytheism for contact with the Babs and Russia plus 1 gold (all he had) and his territory map. Trade Hambone Polytheism for contact with Persia and Germany plus 1 coin (all he had.) Trade Cathy Polytheism for contact with the Iroqs plus 50 gold (all she had). Trade Hiawatha Polytheism for 54 gold (all he had) and his territory map (4 towns). Trade Otto Polytheism and Math for his world map and 3 gold (all he had). Trade Xerxes Polytheism for his world map and 1 gold. (basically a gift)

Save files (remember the size warning!! or be sad :cry: )

cracker's bc2190 zipped save file (turn 40)
cracker's bc1790 zipped save file (turn 50)
cracker's bc1525 zipped save file (turn 60)
 
Sorry to be trouble, but I don't know how to send a zipped file. Much less uploading one.

I have WinZip. I can unzip fine. But how do I zip a file? Where do I go to zip it? If I go to my saved games, I don't want those files to be zipped (unless of course the original would still stay in there.)

And I have had no luck uploading any file.

Can I still send each 10 turns as attachments?

I will try to do what is right if I can figure out how to do it.

stwils :(
 
Q1 Hotrod

2590 (30):

2550 (31): Found Canton.

2510:

2470: pop hut and get alphabet, first good hut.:).

2430:

2390: Learn IW, start math.

2350: Contact with Americans, no trades

2310:

2270:

2230: contact with India - Trade the infamous HBR for Mysticism :).

2190 (40): Settler movement toward city 4.


2150 (41): Found Nanking

2110 (42): Shanghi riots, need 20% lux.

2070 (43): The barbs are out.

2030 (44):

1990 (45):

1950 (46): Learn math start currency. Found Tsingtao. Math -> zulus for writing, Math + WM to lizzy for philo and TM.

1910 (47):

1870 (48):

1830 (49):

1790 (50): Found Xingian.




1750 (51): Nanking completes warrior JIT, barbs approach from south start worker.

1725 (52): Nanking warrior survives and promotes.

1700 (53): Spot american boarder to the North.

1675 (54): Shanghi builds settler starts another. Settler heading to Horses in the North.

1650 (55):

1625 (56): Tsingtao builds barracks starts spear. Nanking builds worker starts another. Abe has maps but not Philo. trade WM. Traded Zulus, philo and WM for Maps and Territory map. Sell Lizzy maps for 3 gold and TM, she has CoL. Change Tsingtao to galley.

1600 (57): Beijing builds settler starts another.

1575 (58): Found Chengdu to the North by the Horses, starts warrior. Currency next turn +7 gold.

1550 (59): Settler in place for new city on the gold. Currency complete start on Lit, due in 7 at 90%. Trade Lizzy, Currency for CoL, WM and her 37 gold. Embassy with England for 33 gold, she is no Polite.

1525 BC (60): With the new maps decide to move the settler south toward the furs.

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_HOTROD_BC2190.zip
http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_HOTROD_BC1790.zip
http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_HOTROD_BC1525.zip

Hotrod
 
Turns 31 to 40.


  1. 2550BC The first settler is finally ready, he goes SW to compete with Elizabeth. A warrior is ordered.
  2. 2510BC Meet a polite Zulu. No deals now.
  3. 2470BC ...
  4. 2430BC The year of contacts.
    Meet a cautious English, a polite Indian and a cautious American.
    We discover Writing on that same year.
    Trade Masonry to Gandhi for Mysticism and 3 golds.
    Trade Writing to Abraham for the Wheel and 20 golds.
    Trade the Wheel and Writing to Gandhi for Iron Working and 22 golds.
    Research set to philosophy at best pace.
  5. 2390BC Shanghai is founded on the hill overlooking York and orders a temple.
  6. 2350BC A friendly warrior joins us.
  7. 2310BC Another settler is ready, a new pair is ordered.
  8. 2270BC ...
  9. 2230BC ...
  10. 2190BC I could buy a worker from India but since I have no embassy with them and don't want to cripple them, I let it slide.
    [/LIST=1]


    Turns 41 to 50.
    1. 2150BC Canton is founded directly south of Beijing and start a worker.
    2. 2110BC ...
    3. 2070BC ...
    4. 2030BC We discover Philosophy, Code of Laws is ordered. I need more workers, temple of Shanghai vetoed in favor of a worker.
    5. 1990BC Nanking founded W of Beijing claiming one iron. A warrior/worker pair is ordered.
    6. 1950BC Elizabeth knows of map making, all my contacts know of math and horseback. I hold on philosophy a bit longer.
    7. 1910BC ...
    8. 1870BC A settler leaves Beijing to claim the North spices. A barbarian almost kill the last fortified warrior in Beijing, are you sure this is monarch level barbarian?
    9. 1830BC ...
    10. 1790BC Worker completes in Canton, start on pyramids. Map Making was traded around, time to do some trading of my own.
      Elizabeth asks the most for her WM so Philosophy and WM for WM and all her golds.
      Philosophy and WM to Gandhi for Map Making and WM.
      Philosophy and WM to Lincoln for Mathematics, WM and all his golds.
      Philosophy and WM to Shaka for Horseback Riding, WM and all his golds.
      [/LIST=1]

      Turns 51 to 60.
      1. 1750BC Tsingtao is founded directly north of Beijing and starts a warrior/worker.
      2. 1725BC ...
      3. 1700BC ...
      4. 1675BC ...
      5. 1650BC We discover Code of Laws, research started on the Republic at best pace.
      6. 1625BC ...
      7. 1600BC Xinjian is founded on the coast E of Beijing and starts a worker.
      8. 1575BC ...
      9. 1550BC ...
      10. 1525BC Another settler pair is ready and sent south to claim the furs.
        [/list=1]


        Here are the save games:
        2190 BC
        1790 BC
        1525 BC
 
2590 BC Swap Beijing production to warrior.

2510 BC Watch the Zulus found Ulundi and gain contact with them. Beijing builds warrior; settler production started.

2470 BC Shanghai founded.

2390 BC Writing discovered; research started on Literature. I trade Writing to Shaka for contact with the Indians, Burial, Iron Working and 15 gold as I am obviously far, far behind in tech. I've never seen the AI get tech this fast on Monarch before. Gandhi gives me The Wheel, contact with the Americans, and 8 gold for Writing and Masonry- given that Shaka or Lincoln are both expansionist and will sell tech to him at rock-bottom prices anyway, I might as well trade tech while I can still get something for it. Lincoln trades me Mysticism + 4 gold for Writing. Elizabeth has Philosophy, Horseback Riding, and lacks contact with the Americans or the Zulu... but she evidently knows India, who knows them both. To prevent Gandhi from selling contact with them to her now that he has Writing, I buy Philosophy for 27 gold + contact with Shaka and Lincoln. THREE sources of Iron, as well as two horses, are revealed near Beijing, if I can grab them before Liz does.

2310 BC Beijing builds settler; starts warrior.

2270 BC Shanghai builds warrior; starts another.

2230 BC Beijing builds warrior; starts settler.

2190 BC Diplomacy with Shaka reveals that he has both Polytheism and Horseback Riding, along with plenty of gold. I trade Philosophy to him for Horseback Riding before Liz can trade him Poly for Phil. Gandhi has a worker in his capital, and gives me it + 2 gold for Mysticism, a good deal considering all the other civs have it. Lincoln has nothing to trade, but lacks Philosophy and Horseback Riding. Worker starts improving around Shanghai, which is connected to the road net, and the Indian worker starts a road to what will be a new city on the next turn.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/QSC-c1-Borealis_bc2190.sav

2150 BC Canton founded on the coast, where it will claim horses upon expanding, and starts warrior.

2110 BC Shanghai builds warrior; starts settler and is microed to prioritize growth (the AI had it working a forest square).

2070 BC Beijing builds settler; starts warrior.

2030 BC Beijing builds warrior; starts settler.

1950 BC Canton builds warrior; starts settler.

1910 BC Nanking founded; starts worker.

1870 BC The warrior exploring near Zululand is ambushed by a barbarian attacker, getting promoted to vet status. Beijing microed to build the settler in 2 turns when it grows rather than in the next turn.

1830 BC We discover Literature and start research on Code of Laws. I choose to get it in 11 turns rather than 9 and get a 2gpt profit for trade and embassy-building purposes.

1790 BC Beijing builds settler; starts warrior.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/QSC-c1-Borealis_bc1790.sav

1750 BC Shanghai builds settler; starts warrior. Production in Beijing switched to temple.

1725 BC A warrior clears out a barbarian camp for 25 gold. Embassy build with the Zulus.

1700 BC The palace gets an add-on. Tsingtao founded, starts warrior. Lux and tax sliders adjusted to prevent revolt in Beijing.

1675 BC Our warrior disperses a Vandal encampment before Liz's warrior can get there for 25 gold. Embassy built in London reveals the Oracle 40 turns away. No one else is currently building wonders. Liz has Code of Laws, but Shaka doesn't yet.

1625 BC Beijing grows, requiring adjustment of the lux slider.

1600 BC Nanking builds worker; starts another.

1575 BC Beijing builds temple, starts spear. More slider adjustment. Tsingtao builds warrior; starts settler. Worker starts improving land around Nanking.

1550 BC Code of Laws discovered; as research on the Republic would take around 32 turns at max possible research without running a deficit, I opt to get it at 40 turns with min research at 14 gpt. Since everyone except me has Map Making, I trade Code of Laws + 4 gold + 1gpt for it from Gandhi now that the price has dropped. Xinjian founded to prevent immediate Zulu settlement of our lands, as well as Gems once it expands; starts worker.

1525 BC Beijing expands to size 6 and gets an entertainer for a turn, until the spear is built to do MP duty in one turn.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/QSC-c1-Borealis_bc1525.sav
 
My next set of 30 turns, for your delight and amusement :p

(31) 2550BC
Worker connects Shanghai to Beijing and moves to the bonus grassland SW of Shanghai.
Settler completed at Beijing, another ordered up.

(32) 2510BC
Worker mines bonus grassland.
Settler is sent NW to settle next to iron in the mountains.
Luxuries back to 0%.

(33) 2470BC
(34) 2430BC
Shanghai builds a warrior, starts another.

(35) 2390BC
I send the new warrior to Beijing, as it will drop 10% off the luxury tax there.
Worker completes mine at Shanghai, starts road.
Beijing goes into disorder - missed the population change.

(36) 2350BC
Warrior reaches Beijing and fortifies. No change required to luxury slider.
Settler and warrior reach site of new Iron city.
Order restored in Beijing.
Barbarian warrior appears to the NE of Beijing.

(37) 2310BC
Worker completes road and moves into position to irrigate wheat.
Canton founded by Iron mountain. Warrior fortifies. There's flood plains in it's radius, so I decide to pop a worker there.
The English have acquired mathematics. There's nothing else to trade fot it though.

(38) 2270BC
Beijing pops out a settler and starts another.

(39) 2230BC
Settler is sent East to plop a city by a small lake.
Barb warrior attacks Beijing and is sent back in a coffin. The people expand the palace.
Shanghai pops out another warrior.

(40) 2190BC
Warrior fortifies in Shanghai. Shanghai production is changed to barracks.
I buy a worker from India for 25 gold.
Worker irrigates wheat by Shanghai, starts road.
Switch Beijing off settler production to build a barracks. Barbarians are beginning to show in numbers, and more solid defence is called for.

Q1 - Arizona_Steve - 2190BC

(41) 2150BC
Barbarians attack Canton and Beijing. No casualties for the Chinese.

(42) 2110BC
Nanking founded. Warrior ordered up.
Beijing is attacked again - our warrior promotes to Vetaran.
Barracks complete in Beijing. Spearman ordered.

(43) 2070Bc
Worker begins road to horses.
More trading - We get Mathematics and a territory map from England. They get our world map, 90 gold and 1 gold per turn.
Mathematics and World Map go to India. We get Map Making, their Territory Map and 20 gold.
I give up researching. Science to 0%.
Shanghai builds a warrior.

(44) 2030BC
Warrior is sent East to hunt down the barbarian camp.
Shanghai production changed to barracks.
Horsie road is completed. We can build horsemen.
Interesting - China is fourth in the list of most advanced nations.

(45) 1990BC
Our lone exploring warrior stumbles on a barbarian camp.
I see why we're fourth in the tech list - Zululand, England and India have acquired Philosophy.
Ghandi will trade Philosophy for 49 gold. I get it from him for 45.
Beijing goes into disorder again. Forgot about the population growth again.

(46) 1950BC
Luxuries to 10%.
Beat up one barbarian warrior. Another remains in the camp.
Beijing builds spearman, starts settler.
Nanking builds warrior, starts temple.
Canton trains a worker, starts another.
Oder restored in Beijing.

(47) 1910BC
Spearman fortifies in Beijing until a settler is trained - luxuries down to 0%.
Warrior fortifies in Nanking.
Barb-busting warrior spies a barbarian camp.
Canton worker is sent to irrigate flood plains.
Barb camp to the West of Canton is destroyed - 25 gold for us.
England, India and America have Code of Laws. America lacks Map-Making. Map-making goes to America, We get Code of Laws and the American territory map.
Our palace gets some steps in front of it.
England starts the Oracle.

(48) 1870BC
Our warrior gets killed trying to destroy a barbarian camp.
Shanghai builds barracks, starts spearman.

(49) 1830BC
I sell Shaka Code of Laws, Our world map and 60 gold in exchange for their world map. I cannot believe how anaemic our opponents are - Only England is equal to us in expansion - the others have three cities each. I guess I'm too used to Deity rates of expansion.

(50) 1790BC
Canton worker completes floodplains irrigation, begins road.
Luxuries to 10% as Beijing grows to 5.

Q1 - Arizona_Steve - 1790BC

(51) 1750BC
Beijing builds settler, starts Spearman.
Luxuries to 0%.
Spearman at Beijing is unfortified and escorts the settler towards a second source of iron.

(52) 1725BC
Shanghai builds spearman, starts settler.

(53) 1700BC
Luxuries up to 10% as Beijing hits population 4 again.
Shanghai spearman fortified until settler is trained.
Beijing builds spearman, starts settler.

(54) 1675BC
Beijing spearman fortifies, waits for settler. You get the pattern?
Tsintao founded next to second iron source. Spearman fortifies. Archer ordered up for barbarian busting.
Buy an American worker for 27 gold.

(55) 1650BC
(56) 1625BC
Canton spits out a worker, starts another.

(57) 1600BC
America, India and England have Literature for sale. I buy from Lincoln for World Map and 60 gold. He remains cautious though.
Beijing spits out a settler.

(58) 1575BC
As before, wake up the spearman and use him to escort the Beijing settler.
The spearman inexplicably goes the wrong way. Fortunately there are no barbarians near the settler, so I don't bother to reload.
Shanghai trains a settler, and starts a spearman.

(59) 1550BC
That annoying barbarian camp to the East of Beijing is finally trashed.
Luxuries back down to 0% now the settlers are out.

(60) 1525BC
Two settlers are in position to found next turn.
Sell Literature to Shaka for his World Map, 10 gold and a Zulu worker.
Luxuries to 10% - Beijing grew to 4 again.

Q1 - Arizona_Steve - 1525BC
 
Originally posted by stwils
Sorry to be trouble, but I don't know how to send a zipped file. Much less uploading one.

I have WinZip. I can unzip fine. But how do I zip a file? Where do I go to zip it?
.......
stwils :(

Open WinZip, Press the "New" button. Name the zip file (usually the same as the sav file). When it prompts you to add files to the archive, select the sav file. It will not delete the sav file. A copy of it will be added to the archive.

At the bottom of this page you will find an "upload" selection. This will bring up a dialog box with spaces for three files to upload. Click on one of the browse buttons and select the archive you created above. You can then hit the upload button below your choices. This dialog gives no indication that the files are being tranfered, but if you run your cursor up to the title bar, it should change to the busy cursor. Once the files are loaded, the upload dialog will change to a conformation dialog. Note the path for the uploads2 folder.

When you submit your report, at the place you want to reference the uploaded file, hit the "http://" button above the text box. Enter the visible text for the link and select OK. Then enter the path you noted above followed by a / and your zip file name.

You should be set.
 
The second reign of Charis, the Peaceful Barracks maker...
(In a followup post, learn more about the history of this monarch
and his plans for this game. The key point is that I'm using
vet archers as "opportunistic" scouts)

2550 BC - Goody hut, teaches us Alphabet. The English have Bronze
Working, Mysticism and Math. They have 10 gold and also just one
other city. Alas, they have all our techs too? Darn expansionist
scouts 8-\ At least that reduceds Bronze cost so I can
finish next turn. We then start Iron Working in 25 turns.

2510 BC - We see York, guarded by a CONSCRIPT warrior. My vet
archer is literally chomping at the bit to take him out.
They have bronze, so if I wait, they'll make spears. York
has two wines too. Yellow borders seen to the north. Less of
a pushover, the Zulus.

2430 BC - We autoraze York, sitting on wine, and near horses.

(Vet archer vs conscript warrior - "Opportunistic War #1")

2390 BC - Our SE archer, now more south, clears a Barb camp
and becomes elite. There he finds furs.

2350 BC - Canton is founded next to wheat and near horses.
We find ourselves next to Ulundi, Zulu's only town. We
declare war, and autoraze it. Mustn't treat Shaka any
different from Liz! (They both just had a lone warrior defender)
I imagine we're going to catch some heat for this :hammer:

(Elite archer vs reg warrior - "Opportunistic War #2")

2310 BC - An English warrior attacks us down to 1hp but loses.
Another warrior is not far from Beijing. In fact I have to switch
to warrior. Down south, the hut is EMPTY. Boo!

2270 BC - There is Zimbabwe, but with an Impi in it, and an
archer and warrior outside it. I fortify on the mountain.
The south exploring archer stops exploring and heads to
English area.

2230 BC - In a nerve racking battle, my vet warrior drops to 1hp
and kills the English warrior! :eek:

My North archer kills the warrior, and awaits retaliation.
My advisor says that at this point anyway I have a strong mil
compared to either Zulu or English. With just 4 mil units.

2190 BC - YES! My elite archer holds off against the regular
Zulu archer, although dropping to 1 hp first! Who said
barracks first and higher quality troops don't matter?!

England is ready to talk! (I have two vet spears near him)
She's ready to give... York, Mysticism, Writing, and ALMOST
Math (wow!!) Let me see if Shaka will talk.

Zulus also, after their last two-unit defeat, are ready to
talk, since they have NO other city! They'll offer Communications
with Americans and Indians, their worker, Mysticism, Writing,
and 24 gold! AND Iron Working (due for me next turn anyway)
Wowza! Uh, ok Shaka, that works. There's no benefit to me to
razing Zimbabwe anyway.

Back to Liz - she'll give Mathematics and 27 gold and ONE of
the following - Polytheism OR York. Hmmm... you know, I could
come raze York. Your warrior near my two archers will surely
die. We'll talk again in a round or two, Lizzy.
(York would be very far, corrupt, and hard to defend. I would
rather just raze it.)

With another chop, the Canton rax are due next turn.
We now see Iron not far from Shanghai, within range of the
planned incense city.

We say hi to India, who has NOTHING. Then Abe. Each has but ONE
other city?? Slow expansion guys! Is this typical for Monarch,
it's been a while? Abe is kinda behind on tech and cash too.

It will be interesting to compare this turn with other players,
have the gains in these opportunistic sorties caught us up?

Q1_Charis_BC2190.sav (Turn 40)

2150 BC - The English warrior steps up and is summarily whacked.
Now what say she? Still doesn't want to yield York. OK...

1950 BC - We see the advantage of 'close' cities with this very
stark defense - our warrior at Beijing plays zone defense,
getting a barbarian approaching Canton just before it reaches
our worker. To the west, we see an Enlgish settler pair in
the open, and move into position.

Settler is due in Shanghai next turn... let him finish or
swap to granary? I'm starting to thing that I've alredy done
what I set out to do with ultra early military - hurt two
civs badly and leave myself room to grow. I think I could
probably peacefully expand to take my whole subcontinent.
Do I switch over to full settler production, or do I continue
to build up and army and take over rather than found cities?!

Short of a fourth city, I think I want that asap, so the
settler order stands. Even then, where to go? There are *SO*
many good spots to choose from! We may see some real differences
between games in this department! Iron to the N, E, and NW.
Wines to west, furs and cow to south, a good river spot E-NE,
furs NW, and 'Zulu' gems further north.

In a 'normal' game I would expand TOWARD my AI foes to take
away their space, then backfill my lands. Here I may take an
opposite approach of founding in my backyard in safety, and
capturing any city founded on my subcontinent :p

On that note, we'll send this settler to the Iron spot East
of Beijing and send his settler west to the wheat/lake spot,
and then let the new cities make more settlers and workers
while the 'core' ones with barracks crank mil. Canton may switch
off archer to spearman to fortify in the choke mountains north,
unless another archer is needed vs England in the west.

Our elite archer kills the english spear-settler pair, and our
vet kills the lone warrior. Liz will give two of three of
tech and city, but not all three. The beating shall continue
then.

1870 BC - We rest our archers to heal and the one up north ends
up stepping next to Bombay. Gandhi offers a worker for a piddling
20ish gold and we take it. (This isn't a RBCiv epic :p )

1830 BC - Gosh, it's tempting to take a whack at Bombay! Midturn
we saw a barb hit Bombay and face a warrior (that's why the worker
was in town). But now alas it's a spear. He really has nothing to
offer us though, in fact he's short two of our techs. We'll just
keep exploring, continuing NW.

1790 BC - Canton finishes his spearman who will head to the choke mtns
to the North, taking a small scouting detour to the NE along the way.

The settler at the east sees a nice coastal plain spot right next to
the iron to found next turn, and a worker moves in position to connect
a road to him. One captured worker to the east lays road over the wines,
in case we settle there, capture, or just need to move troops faster.
The other one heads to road to the new western city we'll found soon
near the wheat. (The ex-spot of York, near the wines, we'll consider,
but more likely, we'll capture when England resettles :)

Why is my archer asleep in Shanghai? Must have been MP before the settler
popped. He heads west to scout.

Gains in this ten turns seem modest at best, on paper, but I'm feeling
quite good about progress so far.

Q1_Charis_BC1790.sav (Turn 50)

1750 BC - The English scout moves INTO position where my spearman can kill
him? Ok... We found Nanking on the coast next to iron and start...
Colossus? It will likely get changed later, but we have to do something
about our false reputation as a warmonger nation! Scratch that! Warrior first
for MP duty.

Our archers heal and it's time to link up and attack London or York. Unless
the scout kill makes Liz smart. She's smart??! She offers all her tech,
Math and Polytheism, AND York, for peace! AND 12 gold. Sweet! Liz, you have
another 20 years to live. If you would be so kind, would you mind re-settling
the wine spot for me??

Hey, York is in a decent spot, on a lake, right smack next to iron :)
It's in the direction we've been roading and our next planned city,
so that's nice. Maybe even a good FP site someday? (Or London) Oh, and the
sole citizen of York is mad at ME for being whipped? I'll send an archer there
for MP, let the other scout, and whip a temple of my own there.

1725 BC - Literature arrives and we start Monarchy. Map Making might be good but
we can buy/extort contacts, we can't extort being in Monarchy. It's quite
expensive so we'll go a York scientist for 40 turns.

Tsingtao is founded west of Canton on the wheat and lake, 3 steps away, and
3 steps from the wine spot.

Canton and Beijing switch to granary, with no immediate need for more muscle.
Along that line, we'll NOT hook up the iron yet, as we could use a LOT more
cheap warriors for MP duty.

1700 BC - America has map making and lacks four of our techs. Other civs are
behind. I'll trade for it, but since I'm not making a ship yet, no need to rush
and pay 2nd civ price.

1675 BC - Our exploring shows that our subcontinent is accessible
only through three chokepoints, 2,2, and 1 tiles, to W, NW, N. Figures - when
I don't mind lots of settlers coming over :p

1650 BC - Eep, Barbarian approaches Shanghai, and no defenders. Rax two turns from
finishing, but I can swap a tile to forest and finish a spearman next turn, just
in time. (Our worker's chopping JUST completed, leaving us 28 shields in the box!)

1625 BC - Nanking's warrior finishes, and we send him to South to scout (literally,
to Canton to replace a warrior who will go South to scout, getting one extra
turn of movement from the pair) We lend out Beijing's nice cow to Nanking to
SLOW it's growth so that the granary will finish first, avoiding the loss of a
half a box of food. Same for Canton. Note: Growth in 7 build in 7 loses the half-box
because the food and city growth is processed FIRST, then it checks shields and buildings.

1600 BC - Tsingtao starts to irrigate its wheat. Our spear looping north via east
finds a barb camp. The histogram shows a horrifically culture-free world. Also,
our score looks great, although Zulus did something right recently.
Our scout finds American border. It better have a spear defending is all I can
say :)

1575 BC - England has a worker who thinks job opportunities will be better
in China, so we pay to bring him over!

1550 BC - Boston has a spear defender. Lucky for him! And two American warriors
in the area. I'll let him be for now. Although I do climb a mountain next to
Boston for a better look at the area. In England we climb a hill and get our
first actual look at London.

1525 BC - England and Americans both tell me to get out of their territory.
I nock an arrow, and slowly back away... for now.

On my turn I stare at Boston. Elite archer. Regular spear. I repeat those phrases
several times. But I realize it's a worthless tundra village and his two warriors
would recapture, even if I won. We back down. For now anyway.

Nanking swaps at last minute from warrior to Barracks. The former was due next round
but would waste two shields. Just three more turns for a rax? I like that better.
The barb camp to east is dispersed.

That's the end of 'round 2'. Cracker - are these enough details? Too much? Or
do you prefer at this stage to know what every unit does?

I've NOT looked at other reports yet, so I have no idea how I stand compared
to peaceful expansions, or to settler whacks. But again, it's "feeling strong"
You guys will definitely like the "next 30 turns" set of descriptions.
Do the opportunistic Chinese settle down to normalcy? Does that northern
archer get frisky in America? What happens to Zulus and Liz? Stay tuned...

Q1_Charis_BC1525.sav (Turn 60)

Charis
 
What a cliffhanger! I can't stand it, the suspense is killing me! :)

We have taken two completly different and irreconciliable paths. My approach is not obvious yet but it will become quite clear in the next 30 turns. Comparing the end results will be very interesting.

You are not a warmonger, you are a pacificator. I hope you didn't forget to give blue helmets to your...er, peace corps?
 
Explanation of Starting Strategy

The starting sequence for this game is so bizarre compared to
others, and in fact rather different from my own 'normal'
starts, as to warrant an explanation.

=== 1. "Strategic Choice - Early Oscillating War" ===

I don't know if this game will score as high as others, but
I specifically want to test out early war, likely oscillating,
to see how it fares in the power and score graphs, compared
to more peaceful openings. The choice of China for a civ is
particularly well suited to this - Let's look at China -

Chinese - Mil / Ind - Rider (4/3/3) - Warrior Code and Masonry
The UU is a VERY good one, with a well timed GA, high speed, and ZOC.
It requires both horses and iron meaning control of both is *KEY* to
the ancient era. One approach is to have a horseman (or even chariot)
rush to have many on-hand to upgrade.
Wonders? Great Wall is instant Golden Age for China.

Specifically, nothing gets built in the early age that doesn't
focus on military or buildup. Perhaps one temple, but unless food
is a major problem, skipping granaries and doing rax instead.
If we end up crippling AI that might switch to expansion of course.
The stated goal of the game, however, is fastest space launch,
which guides us to self-sufficient powerful research and Republic,
instead of the warmongerish conquest under Monarch. Also, our
build out will be tighter than I usually like, about 3 steps
away from one city to the next.

Keep in mind that OCN is *22*, so not even a Forbidden Palace
option until 11 cities! 10 civs (not Japan or Aztec) That also means
that a denser packing will make corruption even lower.

What does "Oscillating War" mean?
That means that you don't wipe out the first civ you fight, but merely
"cripple it", extort something for peace and immediately strike another
neighbor and repeat, crippling them too. Then come back later and hit
them again, in the meantime taking advantage of the added space for
expansion. If it goes REALLY well, hamstring a third civ.

=== 2. "Tactical Choice - What opening build sequence and tactics?" ===

Pre-game, 3 tactics come to mind for an aggressive opening:
- Ultra-early archer rush (2 cities)
- Archer rush (3 cities)
- Four city military build, horseman rush (4 cities)

Recent test games of mine on Emperor diff were showing the ultra-early
approach to be *very* RNG dependent, three-city starts could work well,
or bomb out too, and very good success with four city. But this is
Monarch, and the AI doesn't get as many breaks.

* How do each of these tactics translate to build orders?
1.Typical: warr-warr-settler-warr-granary-settler for capital,
then insert a temple, and find another food/granary city soon.
2. ULTRA-early archer- FIRST build is a barracks, then all archers,
who both explore and find an enemy capital and whack it.
3. Three city: warr-warr-settler-rax-archers for capital,
rax-settler-archers for second, rax-archers for third.
4. Four city: two settlers from cap, one from first other city,
then all rax, then either a horseman or swordsman rush.

I look at the starting position to try to help decide -

Starting spot looks very nice with river, nearby hills and grass,
and a bonus grass next door. All it's missing is bonus food, maybe
just out of sight. From the minimap it has good potential for being
central rather than coastal (especially with high land percent).
We'll send the worker to the bonus grass to work, and if he sees
nothing odd, found on our starting spot. More bonus grass ok. We found.

Wheat and cattle?? Sweet! We're working the wrong square first, but
soon enough... No food problems here, and no pressing need for a granary!

(Capital governer on by default? Ew, we quickly change that and some
other settings :p )

=== 3. Our choice

Since the starting spot is solid, and since we're in Monarchy diff,
with less bonuses for the AI and one extra happy person, I'm going
for a route between Ultra-Early and Early, which I'll term here the...

"Opportunistic Archer Rush"

In other games I hate the randomness of the first assault when you
face spears or multiple defenders. To counteract this while keeping
the benefits of an ultra early rush -

1. First build is a barracks. Vets vs Regs help turn a battle from
lucky to "going with the odds"
2. Use archers for scout, not warriors. Again, attack 2 means
decisive force vs warriors, not a "lucky attack"
3. "Opportunistic" Scouting - *IF* and only if I run into a situation
where I have DECISIVE advantage will I risk an attack, and sufficient
gain. Archer vs warrior-settler pair? Absolutely! Vet vs conscript? Yes!
Elite vs Regular? If the gain is worthwhile, and if it looks 1-on-1, or
if the situation is likely to become much WORSE if I wait.

Examples of good 'opportunistic' attacks:
- If I don't attack a single spear now I'll face multiple Impi later
- If I don't attack a warrior now I'll soon face spears
- An AI city site is SO good that the longer it exists the more
ground the AI gains
- The AI has something worth extorting to demand for peace

Too-close-to-call shots, which I prefer not to see much:
- Using a warrior to attack a warrior-settler pair
- Attacking a reg spear on a hill
- Facing two weak attackers with one stronger unit
- Where even if you win they can't give you anything for peace

4. IF solid opportunities arrive, it will look like an ultra-early
archer rush, if a borderline choice arises, I'll build a third
city and produce enough that I DO have decisive odds, and if
things look worse, or take too long to implement, I send the
archers further away continuing as opportunistic scouts, build
a fourth city and change plans to have a swordsmen or horsemen
rush, depending if I find horses or iron nearby.

How does this approach differ from others?
- It takes away from the high-luck factor of a dedicated ultra-early
archer rush
- It's slightly behind normal 3-city builds because of starting off
with rax and slower exploration
- It's definitely slower to reach four cities and to get a platoon of
swords or horses, but you do get long-range scouts looking for
farther away contacts, that can whack a settler pair if given opportunity

I think the added "odds" and greater flexibility make it a strong choice
on Monarch difficulty, although it needs more testing on Emperor to see
if it's too slow there.

So there you have it, I'm truly not a dedicated warmongerer out to kill
the first civ I meet until a decisive opportunity presents itself.

Feedback or questions are welcome :p
Charis
 
Based on how Charis has started and how quickly England has gained tech attacking may be the best senario. I am peacefully expanding but may be leaving myself open for english to attack me. By taking the offensive against a civ with the tech lead you can get more by allowing them to survive 20 more turns and bleeding them dry of tech and gold as you have done. It is a very unique approach but definintely a great comparison to the "norm" of expand until no land remains "then" conquer. Why not expand, plan for conquest allow the enemy to build tech and gold then take and allow the OCCiv live on only to be vanquished in 20 turns.

Hotrod
 
2550 BC (31)
Continue to play shuffle with Lizzie's warrior's. Second warrior arrives at Shanghai. Irrigate Shanghai wheat. Mine second BG at Beijing.

2510 BC (32)
More of same.

2470 BC (33)
More of same, begin mining Bg at Shanghai.

2430 BC (34)
Lizzie's warrior's approach Shanghai. Elite fortifies.
(I) American warrior appears. Lizzie's warriors attack Shanghai, elite repels both of them. Palace expands.

2390 BC (35)
Lizzie comes to the table. She gives us, Iron Working, Alphabet, and Cermonial Burial, if we forgive her offenses. It is a done deal. Get Horseback riding from Shaka for 1gpt, trade it to Lizzie for Mysticizm and 10g. Start researching writing. Regular warrior leaves Shanghai to explore to the east.

2350 BC (36)
Change Shanhai to Rax.

2310 BC (37)
The wines are now connected and we have our first lux.
(I) Beijing finishes settler, starts granary.

2270 BC (38)
Thank goodness, we find horses to the south!

2230 BC (39)
Pop goodie hut in moutains and get Mathematics.

2190 BC (40)
Movement

Meldor 2190 BC

(I) Shanghai completes Rax and starts settler. Barbs appear from the south.

2150 BC (41)
Warrior moves to escort workers near barb.

2110 BC (42)
Kill barb near workers.
(I) Two more barbs appear

2070 BC (43)
Warrior back to Shanghai.

2030 BC (44)
Barbs approach Shanghai.
(I) Barb pillages wine.

1990 BC (45)
Kill one barb. Canton founded at second choke point. Will bring in furs and spices.

1950 BC (46)
Kill second barb
(I) Yet another barb appears.

1910 BC (47)
Kill barb, reconnect wines.

1870 BC (48)
Irrigate wines.
(I) Shanghai finishes settler starts spear.

1830 BC (49)
Zulu get contact with the English for contact with the Indians, writing and 10g. Gandi get Contact with the English for 24g and Lincoln gets it for 4g (all he had.

1790 BC (50)
Movement.

Meldor 1790 BC

1750 BC (51)
Kill another barb.
(I) Beijing completes its granary, starts spear.

1725-1675 BC (52-54)
Barb killing. Get vet warrior.
(I) Beijing finishes its spear, starts a settler.

1650 BC (55)
Nanking founded.

1625 BC (56)
Spices are connected and we have our second lux.
(I) Finish philosphy start Code of Laws.

1600 BC (57)
Nail barb camp for quick 25g.
(I) Shanghai finishes spear, starts settler. Palace expands for second time.

1575 BC (58)
Movement.
(I) We are 5th on the Largest Nations chart.

1550 BC (59)
Movement.
(I) Canton builds spear, starts temple. Beijing completes settler, starts settler.

1525 BC (60)
Philosophy and WM to Lizzie for Mapmaking and TM. Trade Philsophy around to rest and get maps and gold. Take new map, 1gpt and 102g to Lizzie for Literature.

Meldor 1525 BC

[EDIT] Has to change links to new uploads3 folder.
 
After looking at Charis's approach, and comparing where the AI was in his game as opposed to mine, I now understand the benefits of 'early opportunistic wars.' Some of this depends on having the AI civs so densely packed on the map size- I don't think this would work as well on a Large or Huge map, with the distances between civs reduced- but the advantages of knocking out early AI expansion are obvious.

I'm glad I'm playing this, as I got to see the differences in approaches first hand, but I don't think I'll ever catch up with those who tried early wars, even the varieties of 'whack settler/warrior pairs and then make peace' that appeared. :undecide: I'll be surprised if the AI can recover from this in the long term- maybe if it finds all the other civs and trades like mad until you get a significant amount of riders, it will have a chance- but you'll probably be able to divide and conquer with a nice enough gift to the civ not in your immediate crosshairs. :p
 
Borealis,

Keep in mind that this map say it is a small map but in reality it is a standard or large sized map crammed into the smaller box.

The land tile count, the interciv starting spacing, the OCN, and tech rate supports civ development of larger mega civs if the AI stupid factors would not cripple them.

So normally you would see significantly less land to go with only 6 civs on this total map size. You would have to play a Large sized map to get this much land and this many civs with just the out of the box map generator.
 
Ah. Then such a strategy is workable on a standard or large map, unless of course you're put on an odd archipelago. The poor AI immediately within reach doesn't stand a chance against the :hammer:

The only possible hole in this strategy that I could see (others, please feel free to enlighten as I'm definitely one of the lesser experienced players around here) is that the AIs not on your landmass would regard you with increased suspicion. However, on Monarch the advantages you've already gained by grabbing that $$$/cities/techs would put you in a good position to deal with them, anyway. I'm not playing on higher levels yet so I wouldn't know how it'd work on emporer or deity, as my sole deity game for a while will be my hopeless try at GoTM #14 later this month. :eek:
 
One of the holes in this start is that as you go up in difficulty the windows of opporunity get narrower. The Ais start out with more units, and get production bonuses. You may be able to archer rush one AI, then switch to horses or swords and get a second but after that you hit the hole were the AI can outproduce you until you get past the middle ages. The main reason for doing this at higher levels is to give the room and time to expand at the expense of your closest neighbors. One of the reasons, I don't like it at higher levels is that to do it effectively you will have to use ICS or pretty close to it (REX) to start and get the units needed in time for them to be of use. This is one of the things that PTW has made harder to do, as the AI now upgrades its units relatively quickly when it gets the tech and resources. This makes those windows smaller as well.
 
Meldor is exactly right that the windows get smaller as you go up in difficulty, to the point on deity where *almost* the distance it takes to walk to your foes city is enough time to have fallen behind!!

The window decreases, but the need for SOMETHING to give you a smidge more room to expand becomes more critical, and often makes the difference between a core of 5-6 cities and 7-8. And with tech hard to keep up with, 'extraction' is that much more valuable.

Something tells me this approach is overkill for Monarchy, insufficient for Deity, and if well executed, perfect for Emperor (although I've not used it enough to have executed it well yet there :p )

@Meldor -
> One of the reasons, I don't like it at higher levels is that to do it
> effectively you will have to use ICS or pretty close to it (REX) to
Do you have a specific meaning in mind here for REX? I've seen it used in several different contexts.

@Borea -
> The only possible hole in this strategy that I could see (others,
> please feel free to enlighten as I'm definitely one of the lesser
> experienced players around here) is that the AIs not on your
> landmass would regard you with increased suspicion.

Insightful! You'll see an action of mind provoked by exactly this thought on my next set of turns. In this particular game/difficulty, I'm not even slightly concerned with the AI on the other continent thinks, and will take a Monroe doctrine approach to any attempt to settle my continent.

EVEN if I gain more tech and land in which TO build, it's definitely an open question I look forward to seeing answered:
1) whether or how well that gets translated into a faster finish?
2) whether or how it gets translated into more cities actually founded
3) how it compares to folks who take a rush-to-Rider approach and THEN wipe out their continent (my guess at Jaxom's approach?)
4) how it compares to folks who see a good chunk of the same benefits withOUT hurting their expansion and core buildup, by merely using a spare warrior to settler-whack (ie cracker's game is really going well so far)

> I'll be surprised if the AI can recover from this in the long term

They can't - any of the AI hit is dead and will along live only as long as I allow them to. On Monarchy diff this crippling action is irrecoverable. Oddly, the question in this game will be -- does hurting several AI this bad slow down the tech pace and launch date in the game?

Charis
 
The REX I am refering to is going for max settler build with the first four to five cities. Placing these cities close, but not as close as ICS. Once the first cities are up switch to Barracks and quickly get 5-10 archers/swords out and hit the nearest civ.This also requires you not improve as many tiles per city as you might, but begin roading toward the first Civ as hard as you can.

BTW, I think the strat I used, is showing , on this level at least, to be suboptimal. It is hard sometimes to adjust things down or up. As it turns out, I didn't need to be as agressive in blocking AI expansion into the area as I was. At this level I would have had plenty of time to expand without the blocks.

Lee's game shows the other side to the warmongering. He has built his cities and tech level up through commerce and trade. By leading the race to certain tech, he has been able to keep on par with tech, and have a better base of cities. But the higher you go in difficulty, the harder that gets as well.
 
Charis: You have a good point on possibly hurting the AI too baddly. In a space race the tech pace of the AI is what will ultimately determine the time to lauch. The more techs the AI research "for the player" the better. By taking the tech you get the same outcome as trading but giving them nothing. I think one of this rounds games has a line about giving tech essentially for free just to keep the AI on pace to help in the long run towards early launch.

Taking from A and B, to trade to C and D could also be benificial. Faster then peaceful trading? Not really sure.

Having a tech lead with no AI tech support may not be all it is cracked up to be.

Hotrod

What is the earlist launch anyone has seen anyway? What is a realistic goal?
 
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