Mitchum
Deity
I've done a lot of testing using this WB economy and I can assure you that it actually has a negative impact on your finish date!
![[party]](/images/smilies/partytime.gif "Party [party]")
Let's Play: Deity BC Space: Strategies from a 10 year veteran
- Thread starter WastinTime
- Start date
I've done a lot of testing using this WB economy and I can assure you that it actually has a negative impact on your finish date!
LowtherCastle
Deity
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Messages
- 23,631
Nothing like the JD economy.I've done a lot of testing using this WB economy and I can assure you that it actually has a negative impact on your finish date!
I've done a lot of testing using this WB economy and I can assure you that it actually has a negative impact on your finish date!
Since when do you have 'a lot' of time for testing?
LowtherCastle
Deity
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Messages
- 23,631
Some lots in southern California are pretty small.Since when do you have 'a lot' of time for testing?
Mitchum
Deity
Since when do you have 'a lot' of time for testing?
Typically starting the day an SGOTM ends right up until the next one starts!
Interestingly, my job involves testing (and certification) but unfortunately I can't find a client who will pay me to run Civ IV testing.
I'm actually at a testing event in Seoul as I type...Following! Thanks WastinTime for writing this up 
Threads like this re-inspire me to concentrate on micro and enjoy it for the strategy in it rather than just seeing an obstacle on the way to the end of the game. 'Tis better to travel than to arrive!
Re. WB if my guess is right WT may have openly stated the secret in a casual remark in the GM144 thread but nobody followed up on it! Looking forward to the reveal
One thing that probably shows I'm wrong though is this need to hoard cash ready for the transition. Could be for an initial US rushbuy in a trash city maybe 
Threads like this re-inspire me to concentrate on micro and enjoy it for the strategy in it rather than just seeing an obstacle on the way to the end of the game. 'Tis better to travel than to arrive!
Re. WB if my guess is right WT may have openly stated the secret in a casual remark in the GM144 thread but nobody followed up on it! Looking forward to the reveal
One thing that probably shows I'm wrong though is this need to hoard cash ready for the transition. Could be for an initial US rushbuy in a trash city maybe 
fjordan
Warlord
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2007
- Messages
- 209
Also from me thanks for this thread WaistinTime, and also for the suspense you are building up. I really wanted to know the trick when you mentioned it but this is more fun. Allthough if you cannot beat a meager 11 million points with it, what use is it
A last minute guess: gift a ring of cities to different AI and eredicate their other cities. Then start stealing their gold. Or revolting them with culture and pillage them. Kill any settlers.
Does not fit with WB though. War Bribing? How can you get gold from that?
A last minute guess: gift a ring of cities to different AI and eredicate their other cities. Then start stealing their gold. Or revolting them with culture and pillage them. Kill any settlers.
Does not fit with WB though. War Bribing? How can you get gold from that?
I hate to change the subject. I think I've dragged out the suspense on the economy about as far as I should, but meanwhile I played...
StoneFish Turnset T8-T69
Got workers on something like T13, T15, and T30.
I just reached Pottery. It's the exact same turn as the MarbleStart game. That's a bit surprising. Note to all the people who think huts and especially tech-from-a-hut is OP. This game had free Mining AND free Fishing.
MarbleStart had only free Wheel. Fishing was so important that I researched it manually. Yet both games have the same techs T69.
Here's the full map with AI locations:
Sadly this main landmass is split and we're missing 6 AI.
There are also not many close targets, and after conquering a couple, there's no good next target. (Gray) Justin's capital is on a hill and has no resources in the first ring.
(Blue) Roosevelt's 2nd city is garbage. If I take it, I'll give it away to someone.
Mansa is West, so I went east. They're closer anyway and Justin, once again, gets a holy city. Might as well get that before it goes to 40%.
When I Dow'd Justin and moved in, I saw the city was still at size 1. It would autoraze.
since he's not in slavery, I just keep the war running. That caused him to switch from a settler to an archer and work an Oasis.
It would take a while for it to grow, so I had to send everyone to Roosevelt's capital (2 clams) then come back for the Holy City.
So I now have 3 cities, just like MarbleStart had.
Mansa has the only marble I can see. Justin would have had copper, but now it's mine and there are only 2 more (unclaimed) that I can see.
I might be able to capture this entire landmass with quechua. But then how do I get Alpha and trade?
Adapt plans: I may have to attack Mansa for the Marble before Oracle. That would be a first. Fortunately quechua work against all archery units, not just archers.
And I wanted to get Masonry myself this game anyway which is usually something Mansa provides. I'm going Masonry next since I have the stone in my BFC. That's rare and I want to try to make use of it.
Update: I considered going back to this game some day, but what I didn't show in the picture was the food... or lack therof. My entire landmass has 1 pig, 1 wheat and zero corn! It's even short on fish. Why did I play this game past turn 50? It also has an extra void of any type of food surrounding my capital. And not many forests (too much desert). I already mentioned the 6 missing AI.
StoneFish Turnset T8-T69
Got workers on something like T13, T15, and T30.
I just reached Pottery. It's the exact same turn as the MarbleStart game. That's a bit surprising. Note to all the people who think huts and especially tech-from-a-hut is OP. This game had free Mining AND free Fishing.
MarbleStart had only free Wheel. Fishing was so important that I researched it manually. Yet both games have the same techs T69.
Here's the full map with AI locations:
Sadly this main landmass is split and we're missing 6 AI.
There are also not many close targets, and after conquering a couple, there's no good next target. (Gray) Justin's capital is on a hill and has no resources in the first ring.
(Blue) Roosevelt's 2nd city is garbage. If I take it, I'll give it away to someone.
Mansa is West, so I went east. They're closer anyway and Justin, once again, gets a holy city. Might as well get that before it goes to 40%.
When I Dow'd Justin and moved in, I saw the city was still at size 1. It would autoraze.
since he's not in slavery, I just keep the war running. That caused him to switch from a settler to an archer and work an Oasis.It would take a while for it to grow, so I had to send everyone to Roosevelt's capital (2 clams) then come back for the Holy City.
So I now have 3 cities, just like MarbleStart had.
Mansa has the only marble I can see. Justin would have had copper, but now it's mine and there are only 2 more (unclaimed) that I can see.
I might be able to capture this entire landmass with quechua. But then how do I get Alpha and trade?
Adapt plans: I may have to attack Mansa for the Marble before Oracle. That would be a first. Fortunately quechua work against all archery units, not just archers.
And I wanted to get Masonry myself this game anyway which is usually something Mansa provides. I'm going Masonry next since I have the stone in my BFC. That's rare and I want to try to make use of it.
Update: I considered going back to this game some day, but what I didn't show in the picture was the food... or lack therof. My entire landmass has 1 pig, 1 wheat and zero corn! It's even short on fish. Why did I play this game past turn 50? It also has an extra void of any type of food surrounding my capital. And not many forests (too much desert). I already mentioned the 6 missing AI.
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Well, the games are even at T69, but it's true the future doesn't seem very bright for StoneFish. I'll play it a bit more and see if I can generate enough cash on Henge to get me to Math. Maybe even go as far as getting Alpha from someone. Maybe the other AI will sail workboats up and meet me.
For comparison, my 10 million pt game had:
T94 Writing
T125 Math
T141 Alpha
T148 Poly
MarbleStart is smoking that with:
T87 Writing
T108 Math
T114 Alpha, Poly
Because StoneFish researched Masonry, Writing will be very late--maybe T100.
I suppose I should let it die. I just wanna get a feel for BFC-stone.
I just connected it, but only the capital has access to it. Lots of roading needed this game.
LowtherCastle
Deity
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Messages
- 23,631
It's definitely in the TA SG23 thread...somewhere.
But not by name, I don't think.Mitchum
Deity
OK, so you're saying that your research is currently 34 turns faster in this game than in your 10MM point game, a game which got to sushi many turns sooner than had ever been done!! Fasten your seat belts!!!
What about from an expansion perspective? How is MarbleStart doing in terms of number of cities, gold reserves, fail-gold opportunities, army, helpfulness of AIs (either as targets or trading partners), economy, city size/development, fertile land, exposed sushi (and mining) resources, etc? In other words is MarbleStart way ahead of your 10M game in all aspects or only with respect to research?
No, Alphabet is really quite random when the AI gets it, and then you still have to figure out how and when you get your hands on it. I wouldn't say that the Alpha date is a good way to measure.
Maybe Math is a better indicator since this is research you have to do.
T108 for MarbleStart
T125 for Hi-Score game.
But remember, Hi-Score was on Huge size which makes tech costs ~8% more, so the early research is the hardest, and you have to make up ground with a larger empire later. Empire maint. costs are a bit lower, so it's not a full 8% harder.
I'd say MarbleStart is ahead, but maybe 10 turns or less.
The biggest problem MarbleStart on Large will have it that it runs out of AI (free cities/workers/conquer gold)
Too early to try and count resources. This seafood is all in the unexplored ocean and the Iron and coal have yet to be revealed.
I'll look up some more comparisons.
On T115, Hi-Score game (still has 10 turns to go on Math.)
+80bpt -60gpt
9 workers
8 cities + 2 gifted cities (21 population)
2 Terraces
Army: 12 Q + 1 chariot
On T115, MarbleStart (got Math T108)
+102bpt -100gpt
13 workers
10 cities + 3 gifted cities (27 population)
7 Terraces! (in ~5 turns I'll have all 10)
Army: 18 Q + 2 Axe
Jeez, I didn't realize I was so far ahead of the Hi-score game. I'm very happy with the Terrace situation. It's clear I have no regard for my expenses. It was not long ago when I would preach about keeping a stable/efficient economy up thru Math. Now, I'm all about 'pedal to the metal'. In just 10-15 turns, when I re-take the gifted cities, and more. I'll be up to about 18 cities and probably over -150gpt. Maybe the early Alpha/Sailing/Masonry means an early GreatLighthouse will help me.
+80bpt -60gpt
9 workers
8 cities + 2 gifted cities (21 population)
2 Terraces
Army: 12 Q + 1 chariot
On T115, MarbleStart (got Math T108)
+102bpt -100gpt
13 workers
10 cities + 3 gifted cities (27 population)
7 Terraces! (in ~5 turns I'll have all 10)
Army: 18 Q + 2 Axe
Jeez, I didn't realize I was so far ahead of the Hi-score game. I'm very happy with the Terrace situation. It's clear I have no regard for my expenses. It was not long ago when I would preach about keeping a stable/efficient economy up thru Math. Now, I'm all about 'pedal to the metal'. In just 10-15 turns, when I re-take the gifted cities, and more. I'll be up to about 18 cities and probably over -150gpt. Maybe the early Alpha/Sailing/Masonry means an early GreatLighthouse will help me.
AbsintheRed
Deity
Wow. Sounds scary.
I guess we will see a 15 million game too, fairly soon.
I guess we will see a 15 million game too, fairly soon.
Mitchum
Deity
Thanks for doing the analysis. I'm glad to hear that this game is surprising even you!
Now there is a big hint about the WB Economy.
(tm) LowtherCastle
Out of curiosity, when did you get the GLH in your 10M game and what is your estimate for this game?
The GLH is usually a boon to your economy but I guess it's value is somewhat limited until you can get a couple of off-shore cities set up. I hope you have a plan to do that soon...
In my games, I tend to start planning off-shore cities too late because it takes quite a while to get it all set up (Sailing + galley + overseas exploration + settler) and you have to start planning many turns in advance.
Out of curiosity, when did you get the GLH in your 10M game and what is your estimate for this game?
The GLH is usually a boon to your economy but I guess it's value is somewhat limited until you can get a couple of off-shore cities set up. I hope you have a plan to do that soon...
T142 GLH in my 10M game (recall I got Alpha T141, traded Willy for Sailing and Masonry--both needed for GLH) built the lighthouse that same turn and GLH 1 turn later
I already have sailing/masonry T115, but I don't see the point in rushing GLH this early. I'll have to watch the AI to see if they're building it, but if they're not, then I might not build it until T140 or little later. Probably as soon as it makes sense to spend the worker turns chopping it. Maybe it can be mostly whip overflow since I have some time to play around. Lisbon is size 5.
Settlers are expensive. I don't have any coming very soon and I don't really want them until GLH or Currency.
Galleys are excellent for 2pop whipping with max overflow since they are 100h and whips are 90. But you need a size 4 city with a Terrace for that.
My best city to make settlers is Lisbon, but that's also where I'm planning my GLH. Maybe I need to re-think that.
Anyway, the ideal plan would have the GLH, galley and at least 1 settler all ready at the same time. I guess it's time to stop playing and make all these plans. The WB Economy now is in full effect in my planning, so I will have to (finally) explain that when I post my plan for the next 20 turns.
Izuul
Level 86
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2012
- Messages
- 6,941
Now there is a big hint about the WB Economy.
I've been guessing that it's something largely independent of raw commerce and the slider since he's forgoing the big bureau capitol. Maybe generate just enough gold to avoid strike until sushi and then just go into intentional strike while spreading it. I know that was something discussed fairly recently on the HOF boards. I would imagine raw commerce is all wasted during strike, but other sources of beakers are not.
I'm really curious to see what he came up with.
georgjorge
Deity Wannabe
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2009
- Messages
- 921
The plot thickens...
One question: is Sushi really THAT broken in space games? I rate Mining Inc. very high with all those hammer multipliers and whatnot, but Sushi - while still good - somehow doesn't appear as abusable when not going for a score victory.
One question: is Sushi really THAT broken in space games? I rate Mining Inc. very high with all those hammer multipliers and whatnot, but Sushi - while still good - somehow doesn't appear as abusable when not going for a score victory.
