Artifacts can use some work

MarshalN

Prince
Joined
Jul 23, 2013
Messages
366
The more I play BNW the less I like the current way artifacts are handled. Basically, a flat +2 tourism is not only boring, it's unrealistic and it also makes it so that there is very little incentive to build archaeologists (which are really expensive) unless you're going for a cultural victory. Right now, I basically build just enough inside my borders for the sites that are workable by a city to create landmarks. If I have extra hammers and don't care, I might also build a few to get a few artifacts, but I almost never go out of my way to find sites to dig anymore - the payoff isn't there.

I suggest the following changes - feel free to comment, of course
1) Make the artifact's stats variable. Not everyone will want to go pay money to see a pottery shard from the middle of nowhere, but everyone wants to see King Tut's headdress. The point is, artifacts are not all the same, and some are worth a lot more than others. It's not only more realistic for digs to come up with variable values, it's also more fun. Balance of course is an issue, but that shouldn't be too hard to work out.

2) Attach some other attributes to some dig results. Instead of always giving some tourism, some digs maybe can give faith, others culture, maybe others science. It doesn't have to be a big boost. Maybe to balance out the variable tourism, some artifacts can give you +3 faith and +1 tourism, or something. The point is, we all recognize that different artifacts have different values/attributes in real life, so it's really silly for them all be exactly the same.

3) Make foreign/faraway artifacts worth more. This goes along with the problem a lot of people have with trading art/artifacts - it's a straight up trade and it's a bit silly. I guess right now there's a bit of this "worth more" worked into the tourism bonuses, but generally speaking the artifacts should reflect some sort of foreign/exotic premium. If you want me to send my archaeologist all the way around the world to dig, then it better be worth my time (instead of just digging right outside my borders for what is basically exactly the same thing).

4) Maybe have digs that will come up empty - yup, that's right. Not all digs will work out, surprise surprise. In those cases, have the archaeologist stay in the game instead of disappear, and he can go dig somewhere else. Archaeology is a lot of guesswork and takes some luck. It will, again, make this part of the game a bit more meaningful and interesting.

5) When digging up foreign artifact belonging to another civ, have the option to give it to them for diplo bonuses. Kinda like how you return a worker. It's only fair.

6) This might be too much coding change, but maybe have the ability to organize exhibitions beyond the current tourism bonus system. I mean, if I have 8 artifacts that are all warfare related, right now if the era/civ don't work out I might not get many bonsues at all, when in real life such a collection may be worth a lot as a group for an exhibition. I don't know if this is possible, but it's an idea.

Basically - I hope to see artifacts/digs expanded in a way so that even when you're going to science/diplo/military victory you might still see very good reasons to go digging. Right now I find myself pretty happy with +100 to 200 tourism per turn - enough to keep myself up with the others, and no more, because the investment of hammers is very high (just when I need to ramp up and build all kinds of stuff - factories, units, planes, research labs, not to mention museums). If they can make the artifacts worth more to people pursuing other types of victories then it might be more interesting as a game mechanic.
 
I agree on everything you stated OP. I would also sugest a cosmetic change to artifacts so that there would be more variety.

Dinosaur fosils, lost tresures, king tombs, religious relics, ancient texts and many more would add such a cool aspect to the game.

If the devs would add pictures like they did to the great works it would be amazing.
 
+1
at first it was fun to dig up artifacts, but as you stated, the novelty factor wears off quick. especially when archeologist come at a time were there is so much other stuff to build! at higher level i'll try and pump out 3-4 but generally at that time I can't afford to delay the other buildings. more incentive to send archeologist would be great.
 
I was just hoping for less beads...

EDIT: Now that I've read all your points, I agree. Another thing to go along with different values of artifacts; I think that artifacts (Or maybe just bonus artifacts from Exploration finisher) should be able to sell in the diplo screen.
 
My only remark is that I don't get why they share the same symbol as the paintings in your culture screen.
 
My only remark is that I don't get why they share the same symbol as the paintings in your culture screen.

Because that is the image of the art/artifact slot and it makes it easier to figure out where the artifacts can be placed?
 
That's cool, in a way, #2 would in a way make them like a second run of huts, and might even help steer a civ's strategy if they're still undecided at that point and if the effects are strong enough.
 
The more I play BNW the less I like the current way artifacts are handled. Basically, a flat +2 tourism is not only boring, it's unrealistic and it also makes it so that there is very little incentive to build archaeologists (which are really expensive) unless you're going for a cultural victory. Right now, I basically build just enough inside my borders for the sites that are workable by a city to create landmarks. If I have extra hammers and don't care, I might also build a few to get a few artifacts, but I almost never go out of my way to find sites to dig anymore - the payoff isn't there.

I suggest the following changes - feel free to comment, of course
1) Make the artifact's stats variable. Not everyone will want to go pay money to see a pottery shard from the middle of nowhere, but everyone wants to see King Tut's headdress. The point is, artifacts are not all the same, and some are worth a lot more than others. It's not only more realistic for digs to come up with variable values, it's also more fun. Balance of course is an issue, but that shouldn't be too hard to work out.

2) Attach some other attributes to some dig results. Instead of always giving some tourism, some digs maybe can give faith, others culture, maybe others science. It doesn't have to be a big boost. Maybe to balance out the variable tourism, some artifacts can give you +3 faith and +1 tourism, or something. The point is, we all recognize that different artifacts have different values/attributes in real life, so it's really silly for them all be exactly the same.

3) Make foreign/faraway artifacts worth more. This goes along with the problem a lot of people have with trading art/artifacts - it's a straight up trade and it's a bit silly. I guess right now there's a bit of this "worth more" worked into the tourism bonuses, but generally speaking the artifacts should reflect some sort of foreign/exotic premium. If you want me to send my archaeologist all the way around the world to dig, then it better be worth my time (instead of just digging right outside my borders for what is basically exactly the same thing).

4) Maybe have digs that will come up empty - yup, that's right. Not all digs will work out, surprise surprise. In those cases, have the archaeologist stay in the game instead of disappear, and he can go dig somewhere else. Archaeology is a lot of guesswork and takes some luck. It will, again, make this part of the game a bit more meaningful and interesting.

5) When digging up foreign artifact belonging to another civ, have the option to give it to them for diplo bonuses. Kinda like how you return a worker. It's only fair.

6) This might be too much coding change, but maybe have the ability to organize exhibitions beyond the current tourism bonus system. I mean, if I have 8 artifacts that are all warfare related, right now if the era/civ don't work out I might not get many bonsues at all, when in real life such a collection may be worth a lot as a group for an exhibition. I don't know if this is possible, but it's an idea.

Basically - I hope to see artifacts/digs expanded in a way so that even when you're going to science/diplo/military victory you might still see very good reasons to go digging. Right now I find myself pretty happy with +100 to 200 tourism per turn - enough to keep myself up with the others, and no more, because the investment of hammers is very high (just when I need to ramp up and build all kinds of stuff - factories, units, planes, research labs, not to mention museums). If they can make the artifacts worth more to people pursuing other types of victories then it might be more interesting as a game mechanic.

Brillantly written. Sounds like a perfect basis for a DLC actually :p
 
I was kinda hoping the devs would fulfill their promise that the artifacts actually corresponded to in game events. As it stands now, finding some weapon fragments from the time Kyzyl burnt Kabul to the ground - even though they are on other sides of the planet and both cities are still standing - isn't very believable. It would be awesome if the artifacts you discovered actually had some bonus from the originating empire.
 
Yeah the +2 tourism isn't very good. I think there should be stronger incentive to gain matching bonuses for larger establishments. It kind of sucks when you have a building with two slots and you match them... and all you get is a little more gold and culture.... considering how much it costs to generate those buildings (the garden) these are very mild benefits.

I wouldn't mind if it was a little more real life and you had the ability to sell artifacts like Egypt did with France.
 
Well considered modifications, and either great for a patch or at least a user MOD.

Would need to consider balance though to make sure those random +2 or +3 artifacts didn't cause a culture runaway.
 
I just want to not suffer diplomatic hits to dig up artifacts from other civs despite them having not discovered Archaeology yet. The diplomacy hit is bad enough that I had a civ denounce me once when I said "I can do whatever I want" - especially if it was a HIDDEN artifact you got from the Explorer finisher. :/

Some variability is of course, pretty good as well.
 
I just want to not suffer diplomatic hits to dig up artifacts from other civs despite them having not discovered Archaeology yet. The diplomacy hit is bad enough that I had a civ denounce me once when I said "I can do whatever I want" - especially if it was a HIDDEN artifact you got from the Explorer finisher. :/

Some variability is of course, pretty good as well.

The way it's setup right now you pretty much never want to dig up stuff that will cause the hit, unless you are trying to piss them off. It's just not worth the trouble at all. Making the results better and less predictable might encourage more offensive digging
 
Very well written. I agree with those proposals. It'll make the archaeology - which in itself is a very nice idea / system - much more rich. The same way a great merchant yields more when you send him further, an archaeologist going further might get a more valuable result.
My only remark is that I don't get why they share the same symbol as the paintings in your culture screen.
Yeah, even though they use the same slot, it'd help to distinguish them as museums and other buildings want either art or artefacts. Not sure what the obvious symbol for artefact should be, though.
 
I was kinda hoping the devs would fulfill their promise that the artifacts actually corresponded to in game events. As it stands now, finding some weapon fragments from the time Kyzyl burnt Kabul to the ground - even though they are on other sides of the planet and both cities are still standing - isn't very believable. It would be awesome if the artifacts you discovered actually had some bonus from the originating empire.

? They DO correspond to in game events.

In fact, I really enjoy the process of digging up artifacts, because it reminds me of past events that happened - oh yeah, I actually did raid a barbarian camp or find ancient ruins on this spot many centuries ago!

The way it's setup right now you pretty much never want to dig up stuff that will cause the hit, unless you are trying to piss them off. It's just not worth the trouble at all. Making the results better and less predictable might encourage more offensive digging

One technique is to assemble a bunch of archaeologists and time it so that they all complete their dig in the other civ's territory at the same time. (It is trickier for dig sites in forests/jungles since those take longer). That way, the AI only confronts you once, and now that you already have all the artifacts, you can legitimately promise him you will stop. (Until he expands, or you finish the Exploration tree....).
 
? They DO correspond to in game events.

They're supposed to, but they don't. If you dig up a lot of artifacts you'll start to find things that you know for a fact did not happen (IE an artifact from a razed AI city being dug up within three tiles of your capital).
 
I think this is the best game-mechanic proposal I've read on this forum!

Great job, Marshal.
 
Just a quick aside; this thread probably belongs in Ideas and Suggestions; I have noticed we've been going down the slippery slope here where someone starts with a 1 sentence complaint that could be the seed of a discussion that belongs in the main BNW forum then launches into a long suggestion. Nothing wrong with suggestions, but it sort of defeats the purpose of getting anyone to post in ideas and suggestions forum, which already lacks traffic. If everyone just wants to post on the 'main' forum to get the ideas seen then it sort of sucks for the rest of us who do post in the ideas forum.

Back ON TOPIC

OP make good points; the artifact system is just a little gamey at the moment; I sort of see the gameplay rationale, as Archeologist are expensive units to build and it diverts lots of hammers away around the time of Industrial to slow down wars and give builders a leg up.

Warmongers can choose to ignore it but they could get swamped by tourism later.

The only thing I would add are:
1) make artefacts more relevant to real-game events
2) Sell dig rights:
- Digs that appear inside national borders belongs the Civ; Civilizations may sell 'dig rights' to other civilizaitons to partake (they can also still dig) ; and in return they either get to keep an artifact (offered by guests) or is paid a fee for each dug up artefact.
- Rights can only be sold to Civs AI or humans have a DoF with
- Offering a dug up artefact does carry a diplo bonus;
- This is basically another 'friends with benefit' feature
- Open borders alone is no longer enough to dig in someone' else's territory
- Solves issue when someone goes 'exploration' SP tree and gets hammered diplomatically for digging in someone's backyard on sites the owner may not even be aware of; it creates a discrete and clear system where you know where you can dig and you can't dig

3) Rather than 'scale' value of digs based on 'distance' which is going to be relative depending on which player is digging; seed a map with 'great archaeological digs' These would be like natural wonders
- These digs are limited in number (definately under 6 even on huge maps)
- More than 1 Civ may dig at the site
- Some Digs will have Civilization flavours for Civs not in the game (ie: lost empire of Egypt) in a game without Egypt ;
- Other digs will be based on events in the game. A dig site may appear near the area of an ancient battlefield ; so artefacts dug up will belong to the parties involved
- If a great archaeological dig appears within someone's borders; you'll need to buy dig rights (see above)
- A small chance you'll get great works of art; music; paintings - Depending on works that haven't been used in the game or works that are lost in the game due to wars.


4) If we add in 'great archaelogical digs' single dig instances can be reduced somewhat to maintain the same number or artefacts in-game.

5) I think it's no viable to have civ specific artefacts. It's easy to think of stuff for Civs like Egypt ; but some of the other ones are harder. So the artefacts should be somewhat generic (ie: Egyptian Arrowhead) but to reduce repetition add more interesting variants like 'mummies' 'sarcophagus' 'scrolls' 'ark' ; things that may well only appear once in a game, but adds flavour to their discovery.

6) I'm torn about super artefacts; Given a lot of it is going to come down to luck and dig sites will often be inside borders, it may be too random to have those in the game.
 
Because that is the image of the art/artifact slot and it makes it easier to figure out where the artifacts can be placed?

So why not make them similar, but not exactly the same? E.g. tweak colors, or amount of "holes" in the palette, or just put an asterisk in the corner. Something which allows to not look through 20 tooltips over similar looking items.
 
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