Game balance

hmm, but spears at 10+100% will still be imba vs. horsemen, if it hasn't changed.

Or the Rifle that has +100% vs. mounted due to an upgrade. Makes the horse line pretty useless if they're around.

When I asked if the horse units get buffed at the interview at pax They just ingored my question and said :
the hole combat system has changed So in general horse unit olso change

I'm olso concerned that horse unit will be useless especialy if cities become even harder to capture and they have a penalty against them.
 
In my opinion " the great scientist" is the most unbalanced game aspect. Giving you instant techs no matter how much they cost.

Unfortantly I'm pretty sure firaxis Will leave them as they currently are. There hasn't been any clue that they are going to be change it and if they are going to change it we would allready know it.

Thats the most thing I am concerned about Will there still be the great scientist exploits


These are some other things I thinx are unbalanced :

-Artillery unit : Its one of the strongest siege unit and its pretty easy to get to compared to the infantry unit.
Olso if artillery keep there 3 range and no penalty against units machine guns become pretty much useless. HOpe they get a penalty against units and bonus against cities.

- The iron monopoly : The map script allways put all iron in one era on the map. It isn't spread around the map. You don't have iron or you have a lot of iron(monopoly). Pretty unbalanced if you ask me.

-Liberty the dominant early social policiy Its not the others are weak but liberty beeing So verry strong free GP and free units ?



Thats my thought about it.
 
No game, ever, has been balanced at release. In a week, someone will discover an exploit that the devs couldn't predict. If you were to say, memorize pi to 1,000,000 places or design a perfectly balanced game, the former would be easier.
Hence I predict that G&K will have imbalanced features and unforseen bugs when its released
 
Frankly, I'd like if they separated promotions and characteristics of units. It's already half done with "lost-on-upgrade" promotions, so why not do it all the way?

Let's think about the pikemen-knight example (pre G+K). A base pikemen vs base knight is a 20 vs 18 strength match up. On the other hand, if they both have a total of +50% in other advantages, this becomes a 25 vs 27... So pikemen aren't as useful as they should against knights (the bonus should apply either before or after the rest of the promotions et al, not at the same time, i.e. in this case 10*(1+100%)*(1+50%) instead of 10*(1+100%+50%)).
And then you upgrade both units, and you have a riflemen with +100% against cavalry, thus a 50 vs 25 matchup...

So they should change all "units' characteristics" to "lost on upgrade promotions", and make bonus from "lost on upgrade promotions" behave multiplicatively instead of additively (this happens already for naval warfare, so it has already been coded).

Although none of these addresses the problem of the lack of usefulness of the horsemen. It's just a pet peeve of mine :p
 
There will be some imbalances, but not like what we saw in the original release.

We don't have enough info to say that horse units will not be effective. Why get worked up about things we have no answers for?
 
These are some other things I thinx are unbalanced :

-Artillery unit : Its one of the strongest siege unit and its pretty easy to get to compared to the infantry unit.
Olso if artillery keep there 3 range and no penalty against units machine guns become pretty much useless. HOpe they get a penalty against units and bonus against cities.

It seems that all siege units have a bonus of 200% against cities . This might means that their efficiency against units are nerfed,which is a very good thing .


- The iron monopoly : The map script allways put all iron in one era on the map. It isn't spread around the map. You don't have iron or you have a lot of iron(monopoly). Pretty unbalanced if you ask me.

Now it's possible to build Catapults without Iron,which reduces the power of those who own Iron . Also,since getting friendly/allied status with City-states has become easier,you can focus on getting Iron from city-states without compromise your gold resources more than necessary;

-Liberty the dominant early social policiy Its not the others are weak but liberty beeing So verry strong free GP and free units ?

I'm not sure about how they will fix it,but it might be possible they do so,by buffing Tradition/Honor bonus .
 
It seems that all siege units have a bonus of 200% against cities . This might means that their efficiency against units are nerfed,which is a very good thing .

One thing bugs me with this fix this means that there are no range that are with 2 range that are effective against unit in the renaissance and industrial?

Because machine guns and gatling guns have only 1 range or do they have 2 ?



Now it's possible to build Catapults without Iron,which reduces the power of those who own Iron . Also,since getting friendly/allied status with City-states has become easier,you can focus on getting Iron from city-states without compromise your gold resources more than necessary;

True but its still wierd that all iron is put on 1 spot in the game.


I'm not sure about how they will fix it,but it might be possible they do so,by buffing Tradition/Honor bonus .

Nerving liberty would be the better fix
 
Don't the devs playtest the game? They must have playtesters right? Or do they just create it and slap it on a plastic lunchbox and sell it, without any regard to game balance? I doubt it. :lol:

Early on in game discussions, I think it was 2K Gregg who stated that they hired a team (another company) to test the game, so they do take it seriously. The lessons learned from their prior debacle should still be fresh in their minds. ;)
 
Early on in game discussions, I think it was 2K Gregg who stated that they hired a team (another company) to test the game, so they do take it seriously. The lessons learned from their prior debacle should still be fresh in their minds. ;)

Thanks for the info Civsassin, that makes me feel much more at ease.
 
One thing bugs me with this fix this means that there are no ranged unit that are with 2 range that are effective against unit in the renaissance and industrial?

Because machine guns and gatling guns have only 1 range or do they have 2 ?

Both Machine guns and gatling guns have +1 range . They weren't so popular in the 19th century and in the 20th century,so there's no need for them to get +2 range . The main reason to include them is for those situations where high-promoted Crossbows got obsoleted during Industrial era and it wasn't possible to upgrade them without making their promotions useless . Some time ago,there was a thread about this problem . The OP suggested about 3 solutions for that:

1) Their promotions would be converted to their meele matching(Logistics would be converted to Blitz for example);
2)Xbows would be upgraded to Cannons instead;
3)Introduces another ranged unit for Industrial/Modern era,so the ranged upgrade promotion could still be used;

The third solution was the chosen one . Considering many situations,I think it was the best solution for this problem,because it also avoids other problem,which is the fact that Siege units are no longer so useful against units as they used to be .
 
They're adding new techs and buildings to replace the old +culture buildings. The cultural victory shoould be difficult. I think it should be the most difficult one and it is. Unless you focus on it right from the start you won't get it. It's like back in the old civs where you win from owning 70% of the territory on the map, or having 3 cities producing legendary amounts of culture. Victory, in my opinion, is way too easy. I found civilization 4 to be really hard. I lost way more than I won. My first game of CivV I won. I won on my second game as well. They need to make it harder in my opinion which it has become harder i admit. I left off for awhile and when i came back i found it much harder to win. It should stay difficult I don't want to be handed a win, i want to earn it.
 
I don't like it that Deity players can achieve a science victory below turn 200 while a cultural/diplomatic victory takes like 300 turns to achieve at best. The more cities you have the higher your potential beakers, your gpt and number of units that can be maintained. More science = early atomic bombs to stop armies from snatching your spaceship parts and cities. But more cities = lesser SPs - unless you're have a huge number of uncontrollable puppets. Now we're having even more vanilla SPs and buildings diverted away from culture to faith. I don't know how Firaxis can call that balanced.
 
One thing bugs me with this fix this means that there are no range that are with 2 range that are effective against unit in the renaissance and industrial?

Because machine guns and gatling guns have only 1 range or do they have 2 ?

Both machine guns and gatling guns have a range of 1 tile, however they have a higher melee defense to compensate for it.
They are still really useful, don't be mistaken about that.

They can attack other units without taking any damage in the process. This is huge, they come to close and you shoot them to bits. In their already weakened state they have even less strength to take out your unit.
Let's not forget that siege units are less effective against units now, with the addition of these two new ranged units you can position them in cities and have a decent defense against melee units that want to take over your city.
Last but not least, ranged units survive longer in the beginning, they usually have a lot of promotion already (and the various buildings give xp too when you train them) getting the promotions Range +1 and Logistics makes them really powerful.

Both Machine guns and gatling guns have +1 range . They weren't so popular in the 19th century and in the 20th century,so there's no need for them to get +2 range .

That's incorrect. Gatling Guns were used a lot during the American Civil War and Machine Guns are still used today.
The reason their range is only 1 is because bullets don't really travel that far.
 
Early on in game discussions, I think it was 2K Gregg who stated that they hired a team (another company) to test the game, so they do take it seriously. The lessons learned from their prior debacle should still be fresh in their minds. ;)

No, it was Dennis Shirk and he was referring to the Frankenstein Team which is composed of civ players who contributed a lot to the franchise like Kael. They already participated to the beta test of CiV 5. Shirk said that this time, the team is helping since the very beginning of the G&K development. You can get more info about them in the game credits.
 
Both machine guns and gatling guns have a range of 1 tile, however they have a higher melee defense to compensate for it.
They are still really useful, don't be mistaken about that.

They can attack other units without taking any damage in the process. This is huge, they come to close and you shoot them to bits. In their already weakened state they have even less strength to take out your unit.
Let's not forget that siege units are less effective against units now, with the addition of these two new ranged units you can position them in cities and have a decent defense against melee units that want to take over your city.
Last but not least, ranged units survive longer in the beginning, they usually have a lot of promotion already (and the various buildings give xp too when you train them) getting the promotions Range +1 and Logistics makes them really powerful.


That's incorrect. Gatling Guns were used a lot during the American Civil War and Machine Guns are still used today.
The reason their range is only 1 is because bullets don't really travel that far.


Yeah Ok I get you'r'e guys point But my problem with it is that you can't put a range unit behind a unit So you can fire on the enemy ? (Forming a line)
 
Yeah Ok I get you'r'e guys point But my problem with it is that you can't put a range unit behind a unit So you can fire on the enemy ? (Forming a line)

You can if you give them the range promotion.
But bullets are shot in a line, so if placed behind another unit they technically should hit the target directly in front of them first.
The game wont work like that but that must also be a reason.
 
No, it was Dennis Shirk and he was referring to the Frankenstein Team which is composed of civ players who contributed a lot to the franchise like Kael. They already participated to the beta test of CiV 5. Shirk said that this time, the team is helping since the very beginning of the G&K development. You can get more info about them in the game credits.

I knew I remembered something about a group testing the game. Thanks for the clarification.
 
I'm also kinda worried about Cultural victories. Already the most difficult of the conditions, it seems to be getting harder with the expansion. Stonehenge losing its Culture bonus is a big hit. I may be wrong but isn't Freedom moving to Industrial Era? With the possibility of a new Era being squeezed in between Reinassance and Industrial, seems it's getting pushed back pretty far. The changes to the Piety tree also seem to give Culture a hit, so it makes me wonder what's going on here.
 
I didn't notice increase in city strength, but it's reassuring if they did. Did they also improve city defense?

I am hopeful that they have rounded the game out well wherever they've made changes. There will always be a post expansion patch to fix flaws, but hopefully, they are only minor flaws.

City HP looks significantly higher than it was before.
 
One thing bugs me with this fix this means that there are no range that are with 2 range that are effective against unit in the renaissance and industrial?

Because machine guns and gatling guns have only 1 range or do they have 2 ?

They have one range which makes sense. Artillery and aircraft will be the long range weapons.
 
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