New Leaders (art, personalities, diplomacy texts)

The Capo

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NEW LEADERS

This thread will be used to discuss the new leaders of Diplomacy II. This pertains to everything; their art, which ones make the cut, their traits, favorite religions, favorite civics, AI personality, diplomacy texts and anything else you can think of!
 
CURRENT LIST OF NEW LEADERS

Here is the current list of new leaders in Diplomacy II:
  • Abu Bakr (Arabia) - Spiritual/Imperialist
  • Konrad Adenauer (Germany) - Spiritual/Organized
  • Afonso Henriques (Portugal) - Protective/Expansive
  • Ahuitzotl (Aztecs) - Imperialist/Charismatic
  • Amenhotep III (Egypt) - Industrious/Charismatic
  • Askia Muhammed (Mali) - Expansive/Philosophical
  • Mustafa Kemal Ataturk (Turkey) - Protective/Charismatic
  • Basil II (Byzantium) - Aggressive/Expansive
  • David Ben-Gurion (Israel) - Industrious/Protective
  • Canute the Great (Vikings) - Aggressive/Creative
  • Cetshwayo kaMpande (Zululand) - Aggressive/Organized
  • Charles V (Spain) - Organized/Financial
  • Empress Dowager Cixi (China) - Protective/Organized
  • Chandragupta Maurya (India) - Expansive/Imperialist
  • Cleomenes of Sparta (Greece) - Aggressive/Protective
  • Clovis I (Franks) - Organized/Imperialist
  • Constantine (Byzantium) - Spiritual/Organized
  • Crazy Horse (Sioux) - Charismatic/Aggressive
  • David (Israel) - Spiritual/Creative
  • Dido (Carthage) - Creative/Financial
  • Francisco Franco (Spain) - Protective/Charismatic
  • Harald Hardrada (Vikings) - Expansive/Charismatic
  • Henry the Navigator (Portugal) - Expansive/Organized
  • Henry VIII (England) - Organized/Creative
  • Hiawatha (Iroquois) - Spiritual/Philosophical
  • Hirohito (Japan) - Imperialist/Financial
  • Adolf Hitler (Germany) - Aggressive/Charismatic
  • Itzcoatl (Aztecs) - Industrious/Expansive
  • Ivan the Terrible (Russia) - Protective/Expansive
  • Jayavarman VII (Khmer) - Imperialist/Spiritual
  • Jingu (Japan) - Organized/Expansive
  • Johan deWitt (Netherlands) - Philosophical/Financial
  • Joshua (Israel) - Spiritual/Aggressive
  • Kamehameha (Polynesia) - Expansive/Protective
  • Kim Jong-il (Korea) - Aggressive/Organized
  • Lalibela (Ethiopia) - Industrious/Spiritual
  • Logan (Iroquois) - Creative/Protective
  • Marcus Aurelius (Rome) - Philosophical/Imperialist
  • Maurits van Nassau (Netherlands) - Aggressive/Organized
  • Meiji (Japan) - Industrious/Organized
  • Menelik II (Ethiopia) - ?/?
  • Ho Chi Minh (Vietnam) - Philosophical/Organized
  • Gamal Abdel Nasser (Arabia) - Industrious/Charismatic
  • Nebuchadnezzar (Babylon) - Industrious/Imperialist
  • Jawaharlal Nehru (India) - Philosophical/Charismatic
  • Ogedei Khan (Mongolia) - Charismatic/Industrious
  • Pachacuti (Inca) - Creative/Charismatic
  • Philip II (Spain) - Creative/Imperialist
  • Pol Pot (Khmer) - Protective/Aggressive
  • Ptolemy Soter (Egypt) - Philosophical/Protective
  • Pyrrhus of Epirus (Greece) - Imperialist/Charismatic
  • Ronald W. Reagan (America) - Charismatic/Financial
  • Cardinal Richelieu (France) - Spiritual/Charismatic
  • Salamasina (Polynesia) - Organized/Creative
  • Sargon of Akkad (Sumeria) - Aggressive/Spiritual
  • Scipio Africanus (Rome) - Expansive/Charismatic
  • Sejong (Korea) - Creative/Philosophical
  • Haile Selassie (Ethiopia) - Spiritual/Philosophical
  • Smoke Jaguar (Maya) - Industrious/Aggressive
  • Solomon (Israel) - Philosophical/Expansive
  • Sundiata Keita (Mali) - Organized/Charismatic
  • Sunni Ali Ber (Mali) - ?/?
  • Tang Taizong (China) - Financial/Imperialist
  • Trung Sisters (Vietnam) - Charismatic/Protective
  • Vercingetorix (Celts) - Charismatic/Organized
  • Xerxes (Persia) - Imperialist/Industrious
  • Lady Xoc (Maya) - Spiritual/Charismatic
 
I suppose I should get this kick-started (I'll put up the list of new leaders after this post), but I am taking out Lalibela and adding Menelik II. So if EdgeCrusher and cybrxkhan wouldn't mind putting together an AI Personality for him that'd be great.

If MadmanOfALeader is reading this, could you make him a Diplomacy Text?
 
Damn... I haven't made a personality in a while. Guess I better get started soon. :mwaha:
 
Take your time, I could use a place-holder until you are finished, although you might want it to be in the next playtest in case you need to change it.

Another thing I noticed while writing up that list, Absinthe do you happen to have that list of repeated traits and stuff so we can start spreading them out more evenly or start discussing possible new traits?
 
In the welcome thread you said something about Austria (here I go again). Are you adding Franz Josef to that? I'd go w/ Maria Theresa and Franz Josef. Maybe Rudolf I as well.
 
So you're keeping Sonni Ali as a Mali leader?
 
Take your time, I could use a place-holder until you are finished, although you might want it to be in the next playtest in case you need to change it.

Another thing I noticed while writing up that list, Absinthe do you happen to have that list of repeated traits and stuff so we can start spreading them out more evenly or start discussing possible new traits?

I have that somewhere, and will get more deeply into that as promised
But first I really think it should be decided whether we will have new traits in your mod or not.
 
So you're keeping Sonni Ali as a Mali leader?

Yeah, i also mentioned that in your other forum, Capo
Please don't add Askia and Sunna Ali to Mali, rather update your Songhai civ from Diplomacy I.
The 2 civs are very different in playing style, and they are only similar because they vassalized each other for a few centuries. I'm sure we can come up with something to have distinct enough city lists, and I just read a couple days ago that the Songhai made it to be a civ in vanilla Civ V!
 
Yeah, tell me about it, this is like the "chicken and egg" syndrome if I've ever heard it. Personally I think we should first even out the traits now and then if I decide I want to add new ones we can move on to that aspect. My reasoning is two-fold; (1) I may not wind up adding new traits and (2) even if I am, I still think it is better first to get these guys all evened out, so that way all leaders are on the same footing (including the vanilla leaders) so we can take a real, and comprehensive, look at the whole swath. I think if we first decide on new traits before spreading the others out, it won't be as good. That's just my perspective on this though.

Also, as I wrote out that list there were some trait combos I saw that I was like "huh? Why those traits?" so maybe we should just generally look over all of them anyway. Between this coming playtest (which will be ready as soon as Geo finishes the DiplomacyII/CC update) and the next I was going to do the Inquisitors, Religious victory, Air Promotions, and Leaders update.
 
Yeah, i also mentioned that in your other forum, Capo
Please don't add Askia and Sunna Ali to Mali, rather update your Songhai civ from Diplomacy I.
The 2 civs are very different in playing style, and they are only similar because they vassalized each other for a few centuries. I'm sure we can come up with something to have distinct enough city lists, and I just read a couple days ago that the Songhai made it to be a civ in vanilla Civ V!

We can discuss that in another thread, so we can keep this one for just the new leaders. :goodjob:
 
My only point in first deciding the question of new traits is, that if we add new ones, we should definitely change many of the old leaders traits to one of the new ones. And then change one of the leaders to the newly open spaces, and so on.
For example I can not imagine not to change some of the Portugal and Dutch leaders to seafaring if we add that trait later. Then we have to move a leader to have Joao's ex-traits, etc.
So then we have to do all the trait balancing again and again. I really want to do this optimization only once...
 
My only point in first deciding the question of new traits is, that if we add new ones, we should definitely change many of the old leaders traits to one of the new ones. And then change one of the leaders to the newly open spaces, and so on.
For example I can not imagine not to change some of the Portugal and Dutch leaders to seafaring if we add that trait later. Then we have to move a leader to have Joao's ex-traits, etc.
So then we have to do all the trait balancing again and again. I really want to do this optimization only once...

Yeah, you're right.

Okay, I guess we should first decide on traits. I'd prefer to have two new traits, although I could be convinced to add three. I think an obvious one should be a Seafaring trait. It is not only missing in the game, but I think now with the Trafalgar Square wonder it makes naval power a bit more important. You may say "well Capo, only one civ gets the benefits from that so it isn't a major change" which may be true, but keep in mind if that civ isn't yours, you are going to have to compete with it. Not to mention the fact that there will be increased Pirate activity (and a Pirate Brotherhood "super barbarian" civ to contend with). So Seafaring is definitely going to be one of the traits.

Here are a few other suggestions I have been given, or a few other ideas I have seen. I won't go into detail, but just a general concept:
  • An Espionage-related trait: Espionage can be a very important aspect of the game that is often overlooked by a casual player. Not to mention the fact that I am adding spy promotions to the mod, so these two facts combined make espionage important in Diplomacy II, perhaps a trait should be made to exemplify this?
  • Agriculture: A lot of great mods have an "agrarian" trait, and it makes sense from an historic perspective. In fact a peoples' agricultural system often lays the foundation of its social system. Personally I think a trait like this could be misused or unbalanced, so if we were to go in this direction we'd have to be careful.
  • Strategic: this is another one I have seen a lot of, it usually pertains to upgrade costs and construction of seige units. I'd say combined with Leonardo's Workshop this could be a pretty sweet trait to have, although with Charismatic, Protective and Aggressive that might mean too many military traits.
  • Scientific: This is another area of the game that is basically untouched by any traits. Similarly to agricultural though, this could be manipulated.
  • Diplomatic: It is difficult to really adress the diplomatic side of things in Civ, even if certain leaders love you they'll still declare war on you or refuse to trade with you. I have seen this trait before, but perhaps the espionage trait could cover this.

I'm sure there are plenty of other possible ideas, and honestly I didn't really give bonuses, just descriptions of traits. But now would be a good time to start discussing this more in-depth.
 
Alright, maybe I've said this on the main thread before, but I'll just say it again then - this is concerning an Agricultural/Agrarian trait, specifically.

In the current version of WoL the Agrarian trait gives an extra food for every tile that has 4 or more food. I've had some mixed feedback concerning that - some say it's fine as is, others say that it can be really powerful, if not overpowered. From my own experience, if I start right next to a flood plain, or a place that has a lot of food resources, then my cities can grow pretty quickly. Conversely, especially in the early game, having huge cities sucks since there is rampant unhappiness and unhealthiness. Then again, you still get more people in the city regardless, so it still helps with production and so forth.

For the next version of WoL I'll try to raise the threshold for an extra food by 1 more (to 5), and see what happens there.


Anyhow, I remember tsentsom also had an "agrarian" trait (one of this python modcomps), but instead of giving a food bonus per se, it did something like "When a city is built it starts with 2 population instead of 1". That might be a possible alternative. Or, you could also do something like +25% food from trade routes.
 
I think the first one should be connected to seafaring and exploring, and the second one to espionage. These two would fit your mod very well.
I suppose you will add a 3rd one too, because I don't think you want to have unlucky 13 traits in Diplomacy II :)
14 traits means 91 trait combinations, you will have much more leaders than that

BTW Xyth made this thread a few weeks earlier, we can also find some good ideas there
 
Yeah, you're right.

Okay, I guess we should first decide on traits. I'd prefer to have two new traits, although I could be convinced to add three. I think an obvious one should be a Seafaring trait. It is not only missing in the game, but I think now with the Trafalgar Square wonder it makes naval power a bit more important. You may say "well Capo, only one civ gets the benefits from that so it isn't a major change" which may be true, but keep in mind if that civ isn't yours, you are going to have to compete with it. Not to mention the fact that there will be increased Pirate activity (and a Pirate Brotherhood "super barbarian" civ to contend with). So Seafaring is definitely going to be one of the traits.

Here are a few other suggestions I have been given, or a few other ideas I have seen. I won't go into detail, but just a general concept:
  • An Espionage-related trait: Espionage can be a very important aspect of the game that is often overlooked by a casual player. Not to mention the fact that I am adding spy promotions to the mod, so these two facts combined make espionage important in Diplomacy II, perhaps a trait should be made to exemplify this?
  • Agriculture: A lot of great mods have an "agrarian" trait, and it makes sense from an historic perspective. In fact a peoples' agricultural system often lays the foundation of its social system. Personally I think a trait like this could be misused or unbalanced, so if we were to go in this direction we'd have to be careful.
  • Strategic: this is another one I have seen a lot of, it usually pertains to upgrade costs and construction of seige units. I'd say combined with Leonardo's Workshop this could be a pretty sweet trait to have, although with Charismatic, Protective and Aggressive that might mean too many military traits.
  • Scientific: This is another area of the game that is basically untouched by any traits. Similarly to agricultural though, this could be manipulated.
  • Diplomatic: It is difficult to really adress the diplomatic side of things in Civ, even if certain leaders love you they'll still declare war on you or refuse to trade with you. I have seen this trait before, but perhaps the espionage trait could cover this.

I'm sure there are plenty of other possible ideas, and honestly I didn't really give bonuses, just descriptions of traits. But now would be a good time to start discussing this more in-depth.

My suggestions:
Espionage based trait. We have so many leaders that really need this. However, I'd call it maybe "Securitive" or something.
On top of the espionage bonus, give it maybe a reduction of :mad: caused by whipping/war weariness/drafting. To represent how some leaders were great at holding back negative public opinion (Mao, Stalin. I'm looking at you two. You need this trait. At least Mao.)

Agrarian, I agree that it could be overpowered, but we can just make it smaller than most mods make it.
Maybe just +1 food per tile with +2 food, and that's all. That alone would make it high tier still, but not as overpowered as the usual "+1 with every 2, cheaper granary, cheaper lighthouse, cheaper workers."

Then for the third trait... I'd strongly suggest something like Explorative. A combination of the normal seafaring trait, but with cheaper Explorers and Scouts as well.
That'd make it a great trait for the colony-based leaders.

So to sum up:
"Secretive" - %bonus to espionage, cheaper espionage related buildings, and maybe -1 :mad: deducted from war weariness/whipping.

"Agrarian" - +1 food per tile with +2

"Explorative" - Drill 1 for all naval units, +1 speed for naval units. Cheaper drydock, lighthouse, harbor. Cheaper explorer, scout.

The only trait you suggested that I'm against is Scientific. I don't think there's a way to make a -balanced- Scientific trait, sadly.

Also yeah, I really. really suck at names. So feel free to, in your head, turn Explorative into a better adjective. Or just call it seafaring anyway, but keep the cheaper scouts and explorers, since if you're seafaring you're probably still colonizing.
 
Here's the traits I'm using in my mod. I'm still balancing and adjusting them and I've also changed most of the standard traits which I imagine you are not wanting to do. Still, hopefully there are some elements that you could use to form the ones you want.

Most of them use Python that I've borrowed and adapted from Tsentom1 and a few of them use 'fake' buildings to achieve the effect (Spi and Tac atm). I'm still a Python novice but I'll give you what help I can if you want to use pieces of this.


AGGRESSIVE
• +100% gold from Pillaging
• Free Promotion (Combat I) for Melee, Gunpowder units
• Double production speed of Barracks, Colosseum

CHARISMATIC
• +1 happiness per city
• 25% less experience required for Unit Promotions
• +1 happiness from Monument, Broadcast Tower

CREATIVE
• 25% World Wonder production
• +2 culture per city
• Double production speed of Theatre

DIPLOMATIC
• Stronger Vassals
• +2 espionage per city
• +10% commerce from Trade Routes

ENTERPRISING
• +1 Trade Route in every city
• +1 movement for Naval Units
• Double production speed of Market, Custom House

EXPANSIVE
• +1 food per city
• 50% faster production of Settler
• Double production speed of Harbour

FINANCIAL
• +1 commerce per city
• +10% gold
• Double production speed of Bank

HUMANE
• 100% longer Golden Ages
• +2 health per city
• +1 happiness from Aqueduct, Hospital

IMPERIALIST
• 100% extra Great Generals emergence
• Double production speed of Jail
• +1 happiness from Barracks

INDUSTRIOUS
• +1 production per city
• 50% faster production of Workers, Workboats
• Double production speed of Forge

JUDICIAL
• No Anarchy
• 25% faster National Wonder production
• +1 happiness from Courthouse

ORGANIZED
• 50% less Civic upkeep
• Double production speed of Library, Courthouse, Factory

PHILOSOPHICAL
• 100% extra Great People birth rate
• Double production speed of University

PROGRESSIVE
• 50% less gold to Upgrade Units
• Can turn 1 citizen into Scientist

PROTECTIVE
• Free Promotion (Drill I, Garrison I) for Archery, Gunpowder units
• 50% extra Great Generals emergence inside Cultural Borders
• +1 happiness from Walls, Castle

SPIRITUAL
• Can turn 1 citizen into Priest
• Free Promotion (Medic I) for Missionaries
• Double production speed of Temple, Cathedral

TACTICAL
• -25% War Weariness
• 50% faster production of Siege Units
• Free Promotion (Flanking I) for Mounted, Naval units

That's 17 traits altogether allowing for 136 unique trait combos if you want to go that route.
 
Personally, I'm against really changing any base traits, except for Protective which I still find to be the -weakest- trait in Civ4.
 
In all my experiments with traits the ones I've found the most overpowering are not the Scientific ones, it's the Agrarian style ones. The extra growth just gets insane and exponentially out of control very quickly. Flood Plains + Biology = Super Massive cities , even with the threshold set as high as 4 or 5. It's a huge advantage in the late game but also a massive advantage in the mid game as cities can grow so very quickly. I'd avoid any sort of '+1 food per tile with X' altogether.

What I'm using atm is a single extra food on the central tile of each city, and even this is quite strong. It allows the city grow a little faster but at a steady rather than exponential rate. It also allows cities to flourish better on less than ideal tiles like hills or tundra and in practice seems to let all cities be one size bigger than they would for a leader without the trait. As you can see, even a single extra food is quite a big bonus. I may change it to a granary style effect instead, shall see, but what's vital is that any food/growth bonus is steady and not exponential as growth is already exponential by design in BTS.


As for a Progressive/Scientific style trait, what I'm experimenting with atm is a free Scientist slot in each city. Note that it's a specialist slot, not a free specialist. So far I'm really liking it as it gives a moderate science and GP boost but you have to grow the city to a reasonable size first in order to support it or you risk sacrificing too much growth.
 
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