Science Victory Guide (Any Difficulty)

Bleidraner said:

Difficult to say without seeing what you have done, but science post edu depends on how quickly you had your Unis up (rush buy what you can, this is money better spent than getting early RAs), getting to Secularism asap (the three trees filled you mention worry me, did you have a lot of spare policies between Trad closer and Rat opener? None is great, 1 is OK, more not so much), and ensuring you are working your specialist slots especially the scientists. The rest is about growth, make sure your trade routes are all internal, with 3 going to cap. If you want to be REALLY safe, make sure to settle your cap next to a mountain and build an observatory.

Click to expand...

beetle said:

You are doing better than me generally, but GPr off PT is poor play. You needed a GE or GS more. You could have defended your religion better, and failing that, just waited to faith purchase a GPr. How much could faith could that have been at that point in the game.

Click to expand...

corranhorn01 said:

So I had a pretty good game last night. As the Inca, got a 4 city NC ~T80 and Edu at T114. My 2nd city had +10 gold Natural Wonder and 4th city had Barrier Reef and 4 fish. All of my cities were going really well growth wise, I was managing to keep on top of happiness, even with -15 from Ideology (I picked Order, if I picked Freedom, I think I would've finished faster) and managed to use diplo to keep Rome off my back. I also had the most culture per game I've ever had (filled out 3 trees, not including Ideology and the 3 extra policies I got).

However even with being a 'turn ahead' at Education, I was about 15 turns behind with Scientific Theory, getting it about T185ish. I ended up winning on ~T309. I was getting around 1k bpt and bulbed my scientists for about 7.5k each. I took a Prophet off PT because Rameses wasn't getting the memo to stop sending missionaries early on, so I had to convert back, as I needed the happiness from Temples.

My question. How can I meet the 'deadlines' if I'm up turns at Edu, growing really well, etc but still get so far behind by ST?

Click to expand...

Memoryjar said:

Rush buy in capital because you have some national wonders to build. And you can't rush buy them.

Click to expand...

corranhorn01 said:

I had enough money to rush buy them in every city. I've seen a lot of posts about RAs and come to my own conclusion that it's better to save the money for lab, etc. Especially when going for speed.

My policy order was: Trad open > Liberty open through to settler > finish trad > enter renaissance through observatories and I got my next policy about 4 turns later. I was working specialist spots, post 12 pop in each city (and when I was getting about excess 20 food). All my trade routes were internal with 3 to the cap (which was next to a mountain).

I know it was, but I was struggling for faith a bit (I delayed shrines and temples in a couple of cities and as I said, I needed the temple happiness at the time. I could've declared was on Egypt I guess, when it became obvious he was going to convert a city.

I'll try and find the original save and chuck it up for you guys if you want . When I get home that is

Click to expand...

corranhorn01 said:

I had enough money to rush buy them in every city. I've seen a lot of posts about RAs and come to my own conclusion that it's better to save the money for lab, etc. Especially when going for speed.

My policy order was: Trad open > Liberty open through to settler > finish trad > enter renaissance through observatories and I got my next policy about 4 turns later. I was working specialist spots, post 12 pop in each city (and when I was getting about excess 20 food). All my trade routes were internal with 3 to the cap (which was next to a mountain).



I know it was, but I was struggling for faith a bit (I delayed shrines and temples in a couple of cities and as I said, I needed the temple happiness at the time. I could've declared was on Egypt I guess, when it became obvious he was going to convert a city.

I'll try and find the original save and chuck it up for you guys if you want . When I get home that is

Click to expand...

fils said:

1. Going into Liberty doesn't seem like a good idea in the long run for a pure science game. You're delaying the completion of Tradition which gives an insane growth boost, and other policies that are more useful endgame.

2. You can work your specialist slots way sooner. Key to a fast win is spawning a lot of GS quickly, and to do so in your later cities you need to start earning points early. I would work specialist slots from 8 pop, or even earlier, while supplementing with internal trade routes where needed. I actually don't recall a time where I haven't worked a scientist slot while going for a science win.

3. Religion is kind of overrated and focusing on that slowed you down. At the end of the day you're only getting a small GPT bonus from Tithe vs accepting someone else's religion, which may even come with a juicy reformation belief (you can kind of control this by opening borders selectively) along with diplo bonus.

Personally, I'd avoid relying on religion for your happiness. Sometimes you spawn next to a faith obsessed neighbor and there's not much you can do to avoid conversion. However, if you must keep your religion in some cities, it's often worth surrounding them with units so they can't be converted. Not hard when going for science - you will have some idle GS, GW and GA lying around anyway so you only need a few military.

Another cheesy thing you can do is play ring around the rosy with the AI's prophets. Leave one space around the city open, then when he gets there block him and open a space on the opposite side of the city. Not sure if this is considered an exploit or not... but it can help.

Click to expand...

Bleidraner said:

That explains it. By putting 3 policies in Liberty before attacking the Tradition tree you are stumping your growth, I mean do the math, you are delaying growth policies by at least 40 turns. The Trad/Liberty mix, I have seen people do it (check out Tommynt's guide but remember Tommynt is not your average player to put it mildly) and it may work well with Casimir, but for fast science Trad is stronger and easier to play. And with 4 Unis rush bought at t115 (wow that's tough to get so much money so early especially in King, well done), you should be able to reach renaissance much earlier, so you are also delaying Rati opener and Secularism, a complete no no for fast science.

Also no wonder you are using your religion for happiness, you are also delaying the Trad happiness policies. Use religion for money (Tithe for example) and faith (2 faith per world wonder is usually great at King as you will likely be wonder spamming). Culture is also an option.

If you post that initial save I'll play it.

Edit: @corranhorn01: Just saw the new GOTM announced, it is an SV on King, perfect for what you are trying to do. Give it a try and watch what the other guys do. It's a great learning experience.

Click to expand...

i_imperator said:

Is there a build order for the Renaissance +oracle+rationalism unlock? I'm finding that very difficult to do in BNW, and i always overshoot it on Emperor. Also is patronage worth getting at all when going for a science victory?

Click to expand...

unrendered said:

When bulbing Scientists, if you put your cities to convert a portion of their production to research does that affect the GS bulb?

Click to expand...

Uzael36 said:

Bulbing is based on how much BPT you make for the previous ~8 turns. Switching your cities to produce research will only help a bulb if you bulb after a few turns with it set that way.

Click to expand...

corranhorn01 said:

Hopefully this one works.

Settings: Immortal, Pangea, Small, Quick movement and combat (you are the Inca).

Click to expand...

Spoiler :

I played your map, very interesting. Had never played Inca or Small Pangea, so lots of learning too. I won, SV, on t256.

Tried to play a similar game to what I think you played, so planted my 4 cities in the spots I think you did. Cap settled in place, 1st expo next to the NW, 2nd expo next to the mountains north of the cap, 3rd expo in the peninsula to capture Barrier Reef.

As I wanted to hit Edu at 115 like you did to benchmark the Edu-->ST that we discussed (missed by a couple of turns, Edu at t113), I did not build the GL. NC later than you, around t90, with 3 cities, put down the 4th a turn or 2 later. My first 100 turns were not very good, I only managed to steal 2 workers, 1 from Hanoi and 1 from India, so I had to built a couple more. This was compounded by the fact that I did hover around the CS and India for 40 turns or so, but no workers, and that cost me India's early DoF, which usually helps enormously with money to rush buy libraries and Unis. This slowed me down significantly, and my scouting suffered, I should have been able to plant the 4 cities and NC 10 turns earlier, and with better growth from improvements. As soon as I made peace with Hanoi, by t70 or so, I got the DoF. That was the only DoF I had for the whole game, I think I did 4 RAs with India.

Got a couple of culture ruins (including the first one at t4 or 5, yay!), 1 tech (Archery) and 1 pop ruin, the other 2 were map and barbarians. Did not quite beeline Edu, wandered into Construction for terraces and Sailing and Optics for trade route and Lighthouse.

I built Oracle around 100, by then I had realized that the AIs were not aggressively building wonders (GL was gone at 56, really late, and no other wonders were built until t80, in spite of Rome and Egypt being in the game). So I decided to go for Petra in the northern expo and got it on t118. That gave me a nice production expo, although it was not a monster Petra.

Entered Renaissance through Astronomy, as I did not time it right difficult in Immortal, opened Patronage and Consulates (just in case of happiness problems, it was a mistake I think). Then Rati opener and Secularism. Could only rush buy 2 Unis, and had to hard build the other 2. Filled the specialist scientist slots as soon as I could without crippling my growth, trying to keep cities growing at a rate of 1 pop per 8 turns, but was not always successful. Managed to rush buy 1 observatory I think and hard built the other 2.

I took a Food for Camps pantheon, I think stronger in this map than Fertility rites specially for early growth. Got the last religion, very weak, Tithe and Divine Inspiration (2 faith per world wonder, I was planning to be a wonder whore and I needed to produce faith). Then Itinerant Preachers (Expand religion farther, Religious Texts was gone) and Feed the world (1 food for each Shrine and Temple, I was planning to build temples as I needed more faith). Decided to not defend it, so my 3 expos were converted and I got Monasteries, and I planted the first GP (my mistake, I could have avoided the spawn by buying a monastery but lost focus and screwed up). My cap retained my religion throughout the game.

I founded World Congress by 150 or so. Proposed WF, I thought I would have built the Schools and PT by t180, but was a little bit late, won WF anyway but it was quite tight and interfered with some of my science buildings. I had saved all a couple of GWs and spawned another one with top culture, so I got easily 5 policies in 20 turns. Next round proposed +33 percent GS generation, all the AIs hated it. After that International Games for silver medal and less agro from the AIs, and won before the next vote (I had proposed Cultural Heritage sites, which the main AIs were kind of OK with).

I hit ST @ t169, so no problem getting it by the 185 benchmark. Had lot of cash the whole game, Inca is a pretty cool Civ due to no cost for hill improvements and Terraces are kind of OK too, especially early in the game.

The rest was just growth, the usual beelines, and rush buying scientific and growth buildings as often as I could by borrowing from India and my own cash. Built a bunch of wonders, Sistine, Pisa, PT, Maussoleum and Machu opportunistically and VERY late mostly to fulfill CS quests, Big Ben, and Forbidden Palace, Hubble rushed with a GE. Took Freedom and also built SoL.

Policies: I filled Tradition, Rationalism, Patronage opener and Consulates, Commerce opener and right side to Mercantilism was planning to rush buy parts with Freedom tier 3. On Freedom I took the usual Avant Guard, Civil Society, Universal Suffrage, Capitalism, New Deal, Space Procurement.

I planted just 1 GP and the first GS.

End game was good, but not perfect. Naturally spawned like 7-8 SG, and got 4 from wonders (Pisa, PT, Hubble), got 3 with faith. I also faith bought a GE for Hubble and to fulfill a CS quest without realizing that one was going to naturally span a couple of turns later. That cost me 3 turns. I also made a mistake and started saving Gold too late, so I finished the SV necessary techs like 7 turns before I actually had the money to buy all parts, so that cost me a few turns too. I noted that I hit 1000bpt at t233. At the peak, I was producing something like 1200bpt for 8K GSs.

Thank you very much for the save, it was a lot of fun. I am tempted to play it a second time and include the GL slingshot and earlier NC, but don't have time as I really want to play the GMajor and the GOTM.

Screenshot of my little empire at Victory turn, being attacked by Rome (they declared war 2 turns earlier, too late!!!

Acken said:

Yes and no.
To be 100% precise bulbing is based on how much bpt your CITIES make in the previous 8turns. All other form of bonuses aren't counted: rationalism opener, scholasticism do not increase bulb value.
On the other hand everything that increase the yield of the city itself is (scholasticism, mercantilism etc).

Click to expand...