The Deity Challenge Lineup - Game #10 - Polynesia

consentient_2 said:
I am in a stable position so I can be host if people want me to be, but I have the following thoughts:-

1. Do we really need a single 'host'? Isn't the host just the person who posts the thread to the forum? As Grendel says it could be a different person each time. Conceivably, the DCL community could draw up a timetable of 'lineups' including specifications for civs, map settings, etc. I'm actually in favour of this 'rotating host' model because it puts the DCL in the hands of the community.

2. But this begs the question "who is the DCL community?"

Is it:-

- everyone who has ever played a DCL game, or wants to play the current game?
- everyone who has submitted to the finishers spreadsheet?
- players that can really call themselves Deity players because they can generally win given a reasonable start?

- or...are players like me, who are somewhere between Immortal and Deity, included?

3. With enough variety of civs, maps, etc, will all of the people who form the community 'get what they want'? No disrespect to Gustavus Rex, but the Immortal challenge saves don't interest me at all. Likewise, no disrespect to Grendel but the Rome and Polynesia maps are too much of a challenge for me. So maybe if there were to be some community model it would have, as a central tenet, that a 'toughie' would be followed by a map that is considerably easier (not too easy!) and more accessible for 'borderline Deity' players?

The map that I would be happy to submit for #11 is the kind I have in mind. It's the Maya, Pangaea, semi-decent map. I've played through to T180 and am in 3rd place with an OK shot at diplo victory or maybe late domination. Compared with my position in the Rome and Polynesia games, it's significantly better, but compared with some of my Deity victories, it's still 'touch and go'.

4. So in terms of the difficulty, I would say that my idea of 'fair' is that out of every 3 maps, one is 'rock-solid', one is 'medium' and one is 'accessible'. That way, there is something to suit everyone, and the best players can play the 'medium' and 'accessible' games with a view to getting as early a win as possible.

I hope the above thoughts are of value to whomsoever is not playing Beyond Earth and wants to see the DCL go from strength to strength.

My thanks again go to Grendel for keeping the 'franchise' alive ;) :)
Click to expand...

Different hosts is a good idea. I want to play immortal challenges myself. I'm still to lazy for deity play. :)

My suggestion is that the latest posting host finds the next one who's up for the task and so on.
 
consentient_2 said:
1. Do we really need a single 'host'?
2. But this begs the question "who is the DCL community?"
3. With enough variety of civs, maps, etc, will all of the people who form the community 'get what they want'?
4. So in terms of the difficulty, I would say that my idea of 'fair' is that out of every 3 maps, one is 'rock-solid', one is 'medium' and one is 'accessible'.
Click to expand...

1. Not necessarily but it's the easy way and especially when Dingle had the spreadsheet updated it made things running smoothly. The main benefits with dedicated host is the logistics of keeping the DCLs coming every two weeks like clockwork. From the regular players' pov it really doesn't make any difference who posts the save.

2. Those who participate in some form with the DCLs. One host not playing/presenting the results is fine but if the host changes with every DCL I'd prefer the host being someone who takes part with playing/submitting, too.

3. & 4. There'll never be a unanimous praise for the maps/civs/rules so there's no point trying to please everyone or even the majority every time. Decent variety is a better option - it offers everyone something at some point and hopefully gives an incentive to try something not-so-optimal on the other occasions. (Well, I could hardly argue for anything else after the last two DCLs)
Moreover, the starting position only gives a probable direction for the game while later events may change it drastically and without playing the map until the end or near it it's hard to predict what will happen. Something like fortunate Uranium spots may change a game over in very few turns.
I don't mind occasional good or even excellent starts but T0 swimming in Salt isn't interesting in any way, shape or form.

I can understand the wish for good starts if that's the breakpoint between a won or a lost game but unless hunting the absolute best VC I find it much more interesting to see with what I can get away than whether I win 20 turns earlier in the middle range. I'm also quite sure that there're people who disagree.
In general Deity hasn't been about winning in ages - getting triple-DoWed on T25 is a thing in the past - and making a record VC time requires an excellent map so there should be something in between otherwise it becomes boringly repetitive very quickly hence I do weird or at least sub-optimal stuff in every game but again, it's a matter of personal preference.
 
My thoughts as a relative newcomer to the Challenge series.

1. I could give a rat's patootie who posts the save. Just make it something interesting where each finisher's story is worth reading. Half of the enjoyment comes from hearing others' experience with a map one has also conquered (or not). That's also where the learning comes from. Rome kicked my a$$, and I got lucky with a late win on Polynesia, but both will serve to make me a better player going forward. IOW, I'm fine with it if Grendeldef keeps posting the games unless/until Dingle returns or some consensus as to how to determine maps is reached. Just keep the series going, please.

2. If Dingle does not return, I am hoping someone else will get the spreadsheet running again. I'd also like to know things like BPT, FPT and other such stats from final screenshots so that would be nice to see on such a spreadsheet.

3. I wouldn't worry about the lack of downloads/finishes on this map thus far. As mentioned, BE just got launched AND it's a pretty hard map. Post Korea as the next map and watch that change overnight.
 
I appreciate anyone willing to post games consistently. Having tried all of the DCLs and most of the ICLs, I certainly "enjoy" the ICLs more. They give me more freedom to try new things, slide back into old non-optimal habits that just feel good, etc. Many of the DCLs just feel like a constant grind for all but 30 turns... Somewhat a feature of my lack of ability, I'm sure. I do like to know I am competitive in-game, and in the DCLs I don't get to enjoy that feeling very much.

It has surprised me how many "firsts" I have enjoyed in these series. The game has really opened up for me, trying new strats and civs. (I have often just played one civ for a month or two, or one map, like Earth, for months on end.) Like Shark Diver said, probably my biggest enjoyment comes from reading everyone's write-ups.

I did win the Rome game, and with better starting luck exploring I'm sure I could have won the Poly game... I wouldn't want every DCL to be so intense, but I appreciate the variety!
 
Im pretty sure this series is open to all and everyone that wants to play however they want to play it. We can not govern if anyone is or is not using exploits or reloads or anything really. It is more for fun and sharing the game together to help the boredom of SP (IMO). I have played other open Deity SP games that someone posts and only 2 or 3 people play and finish, because the land isn't very suitable. So it does not really matter if it is the same host every week or not as you all have mentioned. Personally I like Gren as a host because the starts make me change the usual way I would try to open up the game. I do complain a bit but that is normal. In reality I like it, it just takes me longer to get in there and finish. I just notice a few things that people have said in the past that seems to get more people to play and post. Things like easier starts, easier maps, and a picture of the start seem to help. So as long as someone posts up a Deity Game/Map every so often it will not matter to me I most likely will get around to giving it a try.

Oh and no offense but I really can't believe how many people fell for that obvious cash grab that is called... Civ Beyond Earth!

Up to turn 172

Spoiler :
Ok so 32 more turns and this war is never gonna end :) ... It seems Shaka is at war with everyone but England but for 12 turns or so it didn't seem like he wanted to fight anyone but me lol. I had to fight off 8 impis at my cap and he had a good swarm that took back Ulundi which I got back and held 1 turn later but as you know the damage was done in that city. I almost rage quit again when I seen two swarms comming for my Cap and Ulundi, but I fought because of all the marsh and I do have the GW so I thought maybe I can fight them off.

Moriate brings up a good point that the AI doesn't tech very well with this cluster. That is good for me though now only 6% behind with some 1 turn techs still to come for me. I promised not to steal from Japan but I took Gunpowder from him anyway and moved the spy over to Carthage now. I have not been able to ally 1 CS yet :( ! As long as a CS or other Civs don't attack me I might be ok. I did just make peace with Shaka since he gave me Kwadukza (Im sure the people in that city are suffering from Ebola and that is why I got it ... jk/jk/jk). Kwadukza has artist guild in it so that is interesting, I guess I'll have to keep it unless I want to build my own which I don't see how I'm ever gonna have enough production in my cap to build anything :)

** I do plan to attack him after the 10 turns of peace is up!**

I would like to sell off one of these cities to help out with the gpt/happy issue but Im really not sure that I have a good choice of any to sell. Im gonna take another break, that seems to be the norm for me this game... 10-30 turns and time for a freaking break LOL!

Social Policies: I finished Honor so Full Honor and Im only into Republic still on Liberty so I guess I will go right into Ratio next and most likely will never get back into Liberty since my CPT is very low.
 

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Gaming news for a change as I actually managed to get few more turns into this and this really isn't gonna be the fastest of games. T158.

Spoiler :





Couldn't decide where to send the spy so I kept in Honolulu, killed an Aztec spy, missed the next and some unknown so moved to Carthage which gave me T127 Education with the feeling I've been faster.
T122 Paid Oda to DoW Casimir as Shaka's advance was slower than expected and Oda lacked wars. Monte's stealing became annoying and I saw a prophet so I encouraged Shaka to DoW him T131 and joined T135. T137 stole Astronomy and moved the spy to Kyoto as Oda was 6 techs ahead of the pack - one of those games where one AI techs way faster than anyone else without an apparent reason.
With Shaka doing all the work I took Tenochtitlan on T144, Shaka took few other cities but Monte still thought he had the upper hand. To avoid possible denouncement I paid Oda to DoW Lizzy on the next turn.

Not surprisingly Teno had GMoD but nothing else so I finally built Writer's Guild in Honolulu but at least the dirt was good. IW in Honolulu after which I settled own cities #5 & #6. Bad scouting resulted Sri Pada until few turns before so the location of the 5th city changed and the poor missionary had to swim back & forth between the continents. I also had to make peace with Cape Town before any war between us gave much of anything. CBs vs Knights & Muskets just didn't seem like a fair fight.

T153 Monte was down to one city so I bribed Shaka to DoW Dido who has half the CSs, T156 enhanced my religion even when it doesn't make much sense but surprise came on T158 when Japan chose Autocracy - I didn't even notice he'd gone Industrial. Still 5 techs ahead of the next, weird combo of 2/3 points in Tradition/Honor/Patronage/Piety, 2nd largest army, few CS allies, endless money & few wonders.

I have 7 cities out of which 4 has Unis but only one population to run specialists, not a single ally, no DoFs, no money, not much of an army, no navy, no hammers so pretty much the std stuff. Shaka has the largest army, few k cash and hopefully hungry eyes for Dido's nearby allies - if/when I have money I'll buy Shaka vs Oda war whichever is willing to sell it. Other civs are mostly off the podium already unless Dido's naval force makes a havoc in Zulu coast.

Wait & see seems like a nice plan here. There no way I can take out Shaka anytime soon as most of my external non-existent happiness comes from him and I cant't really send caravans anywhere else either. Poland & England are hostile while Dido & Pacha neutral - not being friends with Shaka anymore might help but I'm not expecting much trading with others than Oda & Shaka - not that I'd have anything to sell either.


 
Well, Gren, I still like your game better than my own. Nice job on getting over to the other Cont. to settle in. I like your Capital spot better than mine too, you don't have to deal with as much marsh and you have a nice combo of mines and grass on the southern side. I focused more on army and had no time to build any settlers and I decided to invest more into honor rather than liberty to help with the settlers. Even though in my game I have more friends and I think I am going to take down Shaka soon, my set up makes me a little sick to my stomach :). Im hoping to steal more techs and maybe RA up to help me along with my lack of spt compared to your game. Either way I know your a stronger player and Im going to like what you did over what I did since my plan is usually just winging it with no real math behind what I am doing. Im having a huge problem with this puppet empire in that I am getting Great Merchants rather than GS's :(

The only good news is that Im about to have 4 Xbows with Log/Range so that should help in my wars!
 
I'm still in favour of rotating hosts and it looks like I have some support for that idea, but if people want a regular host, I can certainly submit maps every 2 weeks, and I will always play and submit if that's the case. If people wanted me to be the singular host I would personally make sure that there was something for everyone, and keep the variety up, including some more accessible maps. I'm definitely not all about salt starts and desert folklore/petra.

I have several great maps I have been playing lately, so I can choose one and post it for the next DCL if necessary. I'm still waiting to see if a better player comes forward and wants to take on the mantle. If not, and no one else wants to, I can definitely keep it regular, and update the spreadsheet and everything.

We should definitely hear more from the community at this stage.

And Fluphen Azine, I completely agree. Not only does CivBE look like a pretty crap game to me, but I'm also furious at the developers for not fixing the numerous bugs that make multiplayer Civ 5 unplayable for a large number of players. I am bringing legal proceedings against them for this, so on a side note if anyone wants to be kept informed about this, I can start another thread.
 
up to Turn 215

Spoiler :
The war goes on and to make it worse Japan and the Aztecs decide to double team me for no reason except that sometimes Random things happen! I took another 2 cities from Shaka but Im not so sure it is going to matter in the long term. Yes my Puppet Empire is getting bigger but I fear Japan is going to be a problem. It looks like he is going to take out Poland soon and work on me next :)

I did get two CS allies which is something and maybe Japan is going to be weak after these wars but even troops with low health hit you with 100% damage!

I put the pic up with production options in my Capital and Relations on the other side to show the 3 wars and all the Nat. Wonders I'd like to build but it seems muskets are my best choice or at least that is what I have been building for 18+ turns :)

Im most likely going to lose but Im gonna plow through some of these cities and take alot of troops down with me!!

I did get to open Ratio and at least Secularism is something to look forward to.

** I love to flirt with low spt to make it more even with the AI but this is testing me at +148spt on turn 205!**

I have no idea what VC I can get here, I know for sure Culture is out of the question and not so sure SV is on the table even though that is my go to bail out always!


Edit: 205-215

Spoiler :
Ten more turns in and I lost two Muskets, the 2nd was shear noob play :) I did take Japans Puppet Bulawayo, and the Aztecs gave me Tlax... which is a city on an desert island... so I gave it to Poland for free to help keep him in the game for trades and votes later if I need it for Diplo. 1 turn later I said I should just sell Bulawayo to the Inca and he gave me a very nice deal and I split it up with some gold and 3 luxes to keep me happy till I build some happy buildings.

Im thinking maybe turtle from here and try to tech up. My last war with Japan is going to last for a very long time cause he has no desire for peace. I do know that it is always better to keep pressure on rather than just sit back and wait to defend so that idea is buggin me too.

I decided to annex two of these puppets since they were building useless buildings and I had some xtra happy for a moment.


Up to turn:250

Spoiler :
Well... I was pressing into Japan and all was well till he made peace with England and I didn't get the Memo :) Long story short I had to fall back to Warsaw as I watched his troops get larger and larger. If I would of thought about it more I could of fell back 5 turns earlier and saved a few of my losses. I took Nagasaki and wished I could nuke it like in real life (maybe later)! Anyway I'm about to give him Warsaw for peace. I don't like that idea but Im getting fustrated and it looks like he might be forcing that issue. Either way it is time for a long break and maybe when I come back to it I can decide on the best plan.

Not much else to report. I Oxforded Dynamite and stole some 1-2 turn techs. Im still 5% (64% to 59%) behind Dido, the leader, but I feel more like 12% behind her. I need some help with Japans troops but nobody is willing lol! Once again it is very close to a rage quit but I really want to finish this one out win or lose since not many have played it and so far only Shark has pulled out a victory. Im 99% sure Gren is going to win as well, it is just a matter of time. I guess once you play these maps and win on them all the time like Gren this seems like childs play, however I need to fine tune my game for this mess!

I did sell Warclow to the Inca and I should of sold Nagasaki instead of Razing it. I think I may have made too many mistakes this game and a Puppet Empire is something that might not be viable but it was something I never tried before and the only thing I could think of at the start of this game. I'll have to read up on how Shark and Gren tackled this map. I remeber seeing they both sent settlers off to islands and the other Cont to take advantage of Hawaii's UA but I never like that idea in my own mind but it seems to be the better strategy.

Oh and nobody opened Ratio yet and I did build the PT on turn 236 or so. I think that is the latest turn time ever for me to build that.


I hope you do well with your fight Consentient_2. Fight the power! Stick it to the man... always!! :)
I really just do not understand why they would make a Sci Fi Civ game other than a cash grab. I remember when I read that game was green lighted and I was thinking WTF! That is not a Civ game. The changes in Civ V (Van, G&K, and BNW) were bad enough compared to Civ IV but I could live with them since they were working on making the game more complex and the 1unit 1Hex is a plus for me but seriously a Civ game with no sense of realistic history will never get my money. Like I said before Id rather play Civ Rev or even go back to Rise Of Nations or Age of Empires lol!
 

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Fluphen Azine said:
Well, Gren, I still like your game better than my own. Nice job on getting over to the other Cont. to settle in. I like your Capital spot better than mine too, you don't have to deal with as much marsh and you have a nice combo of mines and grass on the southern side.
Click to expand...

Spoiler :

Well, for me this wasn't a DCL by the time I rolled the map so I had my game plan ready which included Tradition, religion, cross-continental satellites etc and instead of restarting I continued from the T38 save where I was before I made this a DCL. Had I started this as a std DCL I would've gone for Liberty start as usual but I was glad to see the Tradition nerf which came right after I played one - I should've done that months ago to spark this change...
So, in short - while I'm not having much of self set rules this isn't the game I'd have played had the DCL been started by someone else.

The starting position didn't look too tempting nor did the warrior see the sea but after moving the settler that spot gave 1-ring stone & deer, still riverside and quite a few forests to chop and when Casimir's troops came I was quite happy hiding behind the marsh. The capital's spot is ok but the 2nd city is crap in every means and only serves as a harbour, the 3rd city is near 1st NW I found and only with 4-ring lux, 4th city is in good spot, 5th & 6th besides NWs out of which I should've found Sri Pada 100 turns earlier.
Settling ~T150 doesn't make much sense especially since those are not for securing resources but I wanted to keep playing as planned and with some luck those cities will have some use later but they are seriously screwing any plans to build Nationals but that's nothing new.

I didn't have hammers to spare for units and fighting against Jags in the forest didn't seem tempting either so I took the safe option being friends with Shaka which allowed me to pretty much skip the army. Besides there's no military way of stopping T65 Impi carpet if Shaka really wants your head - any other civ can be dealt with some luck.
 
Yes, and out of the regulars I think Shark Diver is on Mac so in case you'll encounter some problems he might be able to help out.
 
I use a mac and have never had any difficulty loading saves. If you have difficulty, it probably means you have DLC missing, in my view. Or are using non-Steam.
 
Another crossroads at turn 268

Spoiler :
So as the title suggests... I had to sell off something to help out with my happy problem. After choosing Autocracy to stay friendly with Dido, the pressure from England's Freedom put me at -10 happy. England is a monster in the way of Culture but Dido has enough to hold her at bay for now.

I had to fight off a storm of rifles, cannons, lancers and GWI's! If the AI would of just kept rushing in I might of lost alot more troops and Warsaw but instead they held back long enough for me to pick them off one by one. I also got some loan gold to partner up with Wellington and that distracted the Japs till I was able to counter attack.

So this time I almost just plain out resigned but I thougt hey wait a minute maybe I can sell a city or two and Dido can help be a buffer for the possible attack of the Inca but ofcourse she decides to give me 205gpt but is razing the 2 cities. Umgund has Petra in it too but I wasn't using it for anything anyway and I am trying to win the game so I am doing what I think has to be done no mattter how drastic. Many times I almost gave the Japs Warsaw just to get some peace but I really didn't like that idea at all.

I have 2 GW bombers and some troops at Nagasaki again. I did capture Izumo and sold it to the Inca but pretty much everyone denounced me except for Dido after that sale. I saved Poland from genocide and they go and denounce me now :(

I guess the only reason I keep pushing on in this game is because Im only 3% behind in Tech from the leader but I really feel like Im wasting my time but since I came this far I might as well either see the victory or defeat screen pop up eventually. Im the only Civ who has even opened up Rationalism so Im guessing that is the main reason they are teching slow. I did put Dido to war with Japan but she is still trying to get through the land of the Inca and doing a horrible job at it :)
 

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Up to T206 and things took an unexpected turn - not to my benefit which is comforting.

Spoiler :

After Friendships with Oda & Shaka ended the world became nicer place and Casimir even offered DoF T166 which I didn't take. T171 stole Indu from Oda amd Dido took Autocracy to my surprise. T178 Oda took Warsaw and wiped Poland off the map so next turn I bribed Dido to attack Oda but that was a crappy war. She had the largest army as Shaka & Oda were at least losing units between themselves. As Dido was friendly I voted her to host the WC expecting some gratitude but that came in form of DoW supported by Lizzy.
Few turns earlier Carthagian unescorted settlers made a mass invasion on the 2nd continent and happily planted a city beside barb camp amongst other things. Had my Knight been 1 tile closer to one particular settler I could've prevented 2 cities settled on next turn but that happens. The worst part of the DoW was her 9 CS allies so some of my TRs got pillaged as my tiles - highly effective proxy war again. My ally didn't do anything and then Japan bought it off. Almost lost a city but the imbalance of ranged vs melee saved me with the need to buy walls which I really couldn't afford anyway unlike Dido - every settled city I saw and there were 5 of them had walls, frigate and lancer/cannon on the same turn.

T184 3rd factory finished and time to open Order but I don't know what game I was playing earlier as Japan already had Order - I thought he had taken Autocracy but nevermind this actually suited me better as I wasn't going Freedom anyway and Oda offered DoF T189 which I gladly took. T194 PT, T195 white peace with Lizzy and T202 shaka joins the Order club which was extremely lucky.

T206 Monte, Pacha & Lizzy have only city each so they are off. Oda has 22 cities which should hamper his tech rate a bit, Dido has 16 cities, endless cash and by far the largest army so as soon as the cooling off period is I need to get Oda and/or Shaka to DOW her.
Some 25 turns ago my plan was to get arties & take Shaka out while keeping the rest of the bunch happy but that's all gone now and it's more about immediate survivalism of the satellites. The other problem is happiness as even without unhappiness from ideology it's not easy to keep floating above 0 while CSs are pillaging the luxes. Also the lack of culture makes adopting policies a rare event and with Oda & Dido going deep in Patronage getting & keeping allies isn't that easy either.

So in short I got what I was hoping for with the map.
 
Spoiler :
Just hit renaissance. This map is a beeatch. My first 4 attempts were all failures. On my 5th attempt I tried something new, moved my settler to between Ulundi and the Incans, as it looked like a nice secure spot. Quickly built another settler and sent him off to a spot I chose from another attempt. Got lucky in that everyone wanted to go to war with Zulu so I just made sure I had enough troops and was the person who could attack when there are zero HP. After that I made more troops and went down to kill Monty. On the way, HE DoW'ed me and saved me the diplomatic hit. It took a lot of effort to take his capital, and perhaps it was my undoing. While my army was all the way south, I noticed Incans coming to my doorstep, so went up to investigate, paid Oda to attack them, and he took Tiwanaku while I cleared a path to Cusco. Was 2/3 turns from taking Cusco when Oda backstabbed me and he just has way too many troops.

I'm sorry, I gave everything I could to this map. I thought outside the box, I remembered stuff from previous games (which is basically cheating), and I used diplo really well at the start and had a pretty sweet army that was about to conquer the 3rd AI capital before T150. But the backstab was the straw that broke the camel's back.

With a decent starting position, or if this was pangaea with more room and the AIs were less psychopathic, I could maybe win this map. But it was really an absolute stinker. If you can win on this map without cheating then Firaxis should make a whole new difficulty level for you.
 
Pretty impressive that you actually restarted this map 4 times after your inital 1st game! I have put many hours into this game already. 3x more than I usually do on Deity and if I lose I lose... I will not be trying this game over for a second time lol! Actually I hardly play a map more than once but there have been times where I have. I remember a pretty fun GOTM that I rolled over and over. I must of played that game out 10+ times!

I took the day off away from this map/game but I'll get back in there and play 10-30 turns very soon. I think 30 turns a session is my max on this map :)
 
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