An alternative Deity Tier List (a.k.a. 'Don't Forget About Conquest')

Yeah CV through conquest is probably the fastest (map dependent though I guess). But on the other hand its only purpose is for HoF games (or GotM) since... it's basically just a domination win in reality with a twist to get it accredited by the submission robot. Not really in my own taste.

Acken said:

Yeah CV through conquest is probably the fastest (map dependent though I guess). But on the other hand its only purpose is for HoF games (or GotM) since... it's basically just a domination win in reality with a twist to get it accredited by the submission robot. Not really in my own taste.

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I totally understand. The mod I'm making is partly designed to make the game function "the way it was intended" by removing some of these shortcuts/exploits/bugs/imbalances.

But, there are two flavors of CV through conquest on Deity. One is the "liberate then GM-Bomb" which is arguably an exploit. The second is "capture great works through conquest" which is IMHO totally valid because of the way Deity currently functions. And it is arguably faster, or at least competitive with, pure peaceful cultural victory. And, I personally don't find it *that* exploitative... I mean, aside from the fact that it's easier than it should be. After all, culture through conquest is incredibly accurate, historically speaking. It doesn't feel at all inappropriate.

Deity is fundamentally flawed because the AI has tremendous advantages which can all be turned into player advantages:
* The AI techs faster? That just makes your trade routes more valuable, and stealing tech more profitable!
* The AI spits out manufactories, wonders, great works? They all become yours when their hapless military falls to a handful of units!
* The AI has lower maintenance cost, lower rush-buy cost and improves resources faster? That's money you can trade for that they won't bother to spend!
* The AI has more cities and population because they can grow and expand faster? Those cities just become yours!
* The AI has a high tech rate? The better for your RAs!

So, the punchline is: Deity is broken because AI "advantages" can be exploited to the point where "harder" flips to "easier".

But, in that context, warlike CV is probably always the best approach unless your civ's Uniques are better-suited towards peaceful play. /shrug

And yes, you can demand anything. Whether they give it has a lot to do with how scared they are.

IronfighterXXX said:

Yeah, this has to change soon

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Hehe yep! I think the only reason it hasn't attracted more attention is that there are juicier tables with gold medals... easier pickins.

There's also not that many people playing HoF to begin with afaik. Rerolling maps is what made me stop. It would so cool if Firaxis added community friendly options in Civ6 and expand with some sort of in game gotm for example. Also add ironman etc.

But they seem so out of touch with their community that this is just a dream at this stage.

So you put together a tier list with conquest in mind as a great determiner of civ power and you rate the Iroquois in the last rung. How am I to take your list seriously?

They're heavily reliant on their start bias and that's the ultimate knock against them and it certainly does warrant dropping them down from top tier. But I mean cmon! You put the highest production powerhouse in the game at ring 5? The civ that can out army any army in the classical era (yes, including Catherine), at ring 5?

Before BNW and G&K (when unit hp was set at 10 and the Hanging Gardens was Game Set and Match) the Iroquois were unstoppable. I understand they've lost some luster since those times but you really botched this list brother.

Klesko said:

So you put together a tier list with conquest in mind as a great determiner of civ power and you rate the Iroquois in the last rung. How am I to take your list seriously?

They're heavily reliant on their start bias and that's the ultimate knock against them and it certainly does warrant dropping them down from top tier. But I mean cmon! You put the highest production powerhouse in the game at ring 5? The civ that can out army any army in the classical era (yes, including Catherine), at ring 5?

Before BNW and G&K (when unit hp was set at 10 and the Hanging Gardens was Game Set and Match) the Iroquois were unstoppable. I understand they've lost some luster since those times but you really botched this list brother.

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The Longhouse requires Metal Casting... by the time I have this tech I've produced almost all units I need for conquest. The combat advantage of a Mohawk Warrior is somewhat moot in a world where ranged units rule. The movement rate bonus is undeniably great though.

Cromagnus said:

The Longhouse requires Metal Casting... by the time I have this tech I've produced almost all units I need for conquest. The combat advantage of a Mohawk Warrior is somewhat moot in a world where ranged units rule. The movement rate bonus is undeniably great though.

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So you win most games by the time you have Metal Casting, is that what I'm to understand? Is that in a 1v1 scenario? This list (as far as I know) has been taking into consideration unique buildings and unique units up to and BEYOND Metal Casting tech. Also, I think this list was compiled with an end game in mind that went more than the number of turns it takes to take out a single adversary.

Mohawk Warriors crush ranged units btw (as do all iron produced units). In Vanilla it was a 10 for 1 damage trade in which a single Mohawk Warrior would crush entire archer armies.

I'm not comparing Iroquois to a single civ or single strategy here. I'm criticizing (heavily) their placement in the lowest of low tiers. It's insane to me that someone would put them that low. I'd like to hear the explanation as to why (beyond the RNG of them getting a forest start).

Klesko said:

So you win most games by the time you have Metal Casting, is that what I'm to understand? Is that in a 1v1 scenario? This list (as far as I know) has been taking into consideration unique buildings and unique units up to and BEYOND Metal Casting tech. Also, I think this list was compiled with an end game in mind that went more than the number of turns it takes to take out a single adversary.

Mohawk Warriors crush ranged units btw (as do all iron produced units). In Vanilla it was a 10 for 1 damage trade in which a single Mohawk Warrior would crush entire archer armies.

I'm not comparing Iroquois to a single civ or single strategy here. I'm criticizing (heavily) their placement in the lowest of low tiers. It's insane to me that someone would put them that low. I'd like to hear the explanation as to why (beyond the RNG of them getting a forest start).

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Ironworking, in general, is completely irrelevant in the current state of BNW. It is true that this was not always the case. If we were talking Vanilla I'd be on the Mohawk bandwagon. But it is what it is. I spawn my army of either chariot archers or regular archers, and I take over the world with them because ranged > all since they buffed city defense. Now, to be fair, a melee unit has to capture the city, but warriors and spearmen are usually sufficient, and if I need another tech, I much prefer horsemen. /shrug

And yes, I usually do win by the time I get Metal Casting, not because I win blindingly fast, but because I completely ignore that tech, and research in general, except for the most necessary techs. You might need Optics. You might need Construction. You rarely need Ironworking, let alone Metal Casting. But, that is absolutely a function of my style of play. I play to win the game with Classical Units. If you're shooting for an artillery rush, or if you're storming beaches with Denmark, sure, it changes things yes. But Hiawatha's special abilities are not special enough for me to detour from a ranged unit-based strategy.

Even if you need later techs like artillery or navigation... Longhouse isn't what will give you those victories faster than the other civs.

1: You need forests
2: You need to not cut said forests, slowing down your expansions
3: You need enough forests so that the additional hammers compensate for the loss of 10% AND for the loss of chopped wood (which has a snowballing effect)

And that's just to come even with the workshop. Beating a civ with strong, free bonuses is another story. Russia for example is much better, getting free hammers and free money from the get go.

I find this list to be very strange and odd. America is super high. Huh!!?? America is the definition of mediocre. Spain is free win mode and tier 3 what? How in the world is shoshone ranked lower than America? Etheopia, tier 3??? This list is super weird.

Cromagnus said:

Ironworking, in general, is completely irrelevant in the current state of BNW.

And yes, I usually do win by the time I get Metal Casting, not because I win blindingly fast, but because I completely ignore that tech, and research in general, except for the most necessary techs.

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WHOA! Bold claim there my friend. I'm not going to get into the merits of what tech is relevant or not, that's not what this thread is about. I will say that your statement is asinine. The Iroquois specialty unit is in that freaking tech! Cmon man.

Let me sum up what you're posting: "I don't play that civ so that route to victory is irrelevant"

This list isn't about YOUR personal playstyle or preferences! You're missing the mark of my post and that is that the Iroquois don't belong in Tier 5 (especially in a dominance oriented strategy). If you're going to conquer with them then you pick different techs than your silly chariot archer strategy and Iron Working DOES become relevant.

Hard to believe I know, but there are different ways to achieve victory in this game and not everyone plays your civ with your same decisions. I play plenty other than Iroquois but it was a glaring miscalculation in the list that stood out to me right away which prompted me to post in this thread.

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Klesko said:

WHOA! Bold claim there my friend. I'm not going to get into the merits of what tech is relevant or not, that's not what this thread is about. I will say that your statement is asinine. The Iroquois specialty unit is in that freaking tech! Cmon man.

Let me sum up what you're posting: "I don't play that civ so that route to victory is irrelevant"

This list isn't about YOUR personal playstyle or preferences! You're missing the mark of my post and that is that the Iroquois don't belong in Tier 5 (especially in a dominance oriented strategy). If you're going to conquer with them then you pick different techs than your silly chariot archer strategy and Iron Working DOES become relevant.

Hard to believe I know, but there are different ways to achieve victory in this game and not everyone plays your civ with your same decisions. I play plenty other than Iroquois but it was a glaring miscalculation in the list that stood out to me right away which prompted me to post in this thread.

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Sorry, I wasn't specific enough. Let me rephrase: "Swordsmen and the UU based on them are irrelevant in the current state of BNW".. The Colossus can still be nice.

I've played Hiawatha enough to know how annoyingly counterproductive his UB is, (especially when focusing on growth) that his UA is really only good for defense, and that his UU is still inferior to a horseman for *taking cities*, which is really the only purpose of melee units when pursuing early Domination victory.

The only exception IMHO is on tundra maps like Boreal, where if you have a choice between a longhouse and a 1food tundra tile that can't have a farm, you suck it up and avoid chopping that forest with *every* civ *anyway*. But that's just my opinion.

Really, warfare in BNW is *all* about ranged units. There are a few exceptions, but the Mohawk Warrior is not one of them. I might make the case for Berserkers, Samurai and Jaguars, but eh. Ranged > all.

Klesko said:

Mohawk Warriors crush ranged units btw (as do all iron produced units).

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Dude, seriously, have you registered just to tell us such truths?

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The only function of pre-Musket non-mounted melee units is to one day get upgraded with promotions. I only ever build them if the civ I'm playing has Tercios, Minutemen, etc.

And even then, a lot of better players question my decision not to build Horses and Knights instead.

Regardless, Mohawk Warriors are really, really poor. I'm really not sure if the poster singing their praises can have tried assaulting a city like Delhi or Moson Kahni with Mohawk Warriors, on Deity, and seen what happens...

I'm pretty sure they would be one-shotted.

Acken said:

Even if you need later techs like artillery or navigation... Longhouse isn't what will give you those victories faster than the other civs.

1: You need forests
2: You need to not cut said forests, slowing down your expansions
3: You need enough forests so that the additional hammers compensate for the loss of 10% AND for the loss of chopped wood (which has a snowballing effect)

And that's just to come even with the workshop. Beating a civ with strong, free bonuses is another story. Russia for example is much better, getting free hammers and free money from the get go.

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Iroquois require a specific start to reap the benefits of their civ. I've already pointed this out. It's a knock against them and it brings them down from top tier for domination style games. So how about we all acknowledge that instead of bringing it up over and over.

In Vanilla, the Iroquois could create Hanging Gardens and it took care of growth rate problems you mentioned. Post Vanilla there is now Temple of Artemis, Faith Pantheon for food from camps, Trade routes for food.... the list goes on. So that's a weak argument you are running there. And no one should rely on clearing forests for their production boost. That's a crutch. Some civs don't even have starting forests to rely on that sort of thing. Weak argument again.

Lastly... this isn't a dick measuring contest. Yes we're judging the civs against one another to an extent. But if you actually read this thread, the Thread Starter specifically stated that we are comparing each civ's chance at victory compared to a Neutral civ that has no bonuses... zzzz. My argument for the Iroquois were not that they should be compared in some categorical way to Catherine or Askia or whoever the hell else you want to bring up... it's that they don't belong in tier 5.

The point being made is that, given the state of warfare in BNW, where ranged units and horsemen/knights suffice (with perhaps a few pikemen as meat shields), the Iroquois amount to a neutral civ with no bonuses. Neither Iron Working (Mohawk warrior) nor Metal Casting (Longhouse) is needed for any tech (including Machinery) that is required to mount an effective domination campaign, until you need Dynamite (if your game even lasts that long). Just as you wouldn't mount a swordsman rush with a "neutral" civ, choosing to detour to pick up Iron Working to unlock a resource-free swordsman is a distraction, not an advantage.

Klesko said:

Iroquois require a specific start to reap the benefits of their civ. I've already pointed this out. It's a knock against them and it brings them down from top tier for domination style games. So how about we all acknowledge that instead of bringing it up over and over.

In Vanilla, the Iroquois could create Hanging Gardens and it took care of growth rate problems you mentioned. Post Vanilla there is now Temple of Artemis, Faith Pantheon for food from camps, Trade routes for food.... the list goes on. So that's a weak argument you are running there. And no one should rely on clearing forests for their production boost. That's a crutch. Some civs don't even have starting forests to rely on that sort of thing. Weak argument again.

Lastly... this isn't a dick measuring contest. Yes we're judging the civs against one another to an extent. But if you actually read this thread, the Thread Starter specifically stated that we are comparing each civ's chance at victory compared to a Neutral civ that has no bonuses... zzzz. My argument for the Iroquois were not that they should be compared in some categorical way to Catherine or Askia or whoever the hell else you want to bring up... it's that they don't belong in tier 5.

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Hey... Take your pills first.

I won't bother explaining the basic principles you got wrong there, you're just in an aggressive mindframe over your favorite toy.

Keep playing the top tier Iroquois idgaf.

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Acken said:

Hey... Take your pills first.

I won't bother explaining the basic principles you got wrong there, you're just in an aggressive mindframe over your favorite toy.

Keep playing the top tier Iroquois idgaf.

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"Favorite toy". That's a nice touch. It's posts like yours, and this little gem here:

IronfighterXXX said:

Dude, seriously, have you registered just to tell us such truths?

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...that make me forget who it is that has the aggressive mindframe and needs to be taking the pills.

I've already said it at least three times, but Iroquois aren't top tier, they have their drawbacks. But don't let that stop you from misquoting me and putting words in my mouth. My argument from the beginning (and going forward) is that Iroquois in the lowest tier for a domination comparison is absolutely insane. Don't let logic or reasoning get in your way either though.

That's the thing, Iroquois are close to a neutral civ with no bonus. So Tier5 is a perfect place.

Acken said:

That's the thing, Iroquois are close to a neutral civ with no bonus. So Tier5 is a perfect place.

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On Standard Maps the Iroquois are worse than a neutral civ, as longhouses are objectively worse than workshops. The only redeeming quality about the Iroquois is that workers can chop forests in one less turn.