Great Musicians & Open Borders

I'm curious, one thing that really annoys me is that you are very easily crippled by being unable to get those musician into the pesky territory of people you SOMEHOW managed to upset (who, you know, ganged up like bullies on you (yes Washignton, i'm talking to you, and yes Pedro, I'm ALSO talking to you, and yes.. even you Gajah Mada, the three of you ruined my good attempt at Portugal Autocratic Culture Victory)

So, I'm curious

Would be game-breaking or does it irritate you that you can't move a Musician into an enemy territory because they hate you and they simply refuse to grant you open borders.

So, German musicians were allowed to perform at the Royal Albert Hall during WW2?

I think it would break some immersion to allow them to roam freely without open borders. You know you can just DoW to get them in there, don't you?

Cheers.

manu-fan said:

So, German musicians were allowed to perform at the Royal Albert Hall during WW2?

I think it would break some immersion to allow them to roam freely without open borders. You know you can just DoW to get them in there, don't you?

Cheers.

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The "Royal Albert Hall" analogy doesn't work since, as you pointed out yourself, you can actually perform concert tours in rival lands that you're at war with. It does seem a bit odd that you can perform concert tours in the land of people you're at war with, but not in land of people you're at peace with, but don't share open borders.

Regardless, I think the way it is now works fine and I'm not opposed to them leaving it the way it is.

manu-fan said:

So, German musicians were allowed to perform at the Royal Albert Hall during WW2?

I think it would break some immersion to allow them to roam freely without open borders. You know you can just DoW to get them in there, don't you?

Cheers.

Click to expand...

As pointed out, you directly contradict your own example since you can do tours during war but not during peace with no open borders. I would think that you shouldn't need open borders for it but maybe need to be at peace makes more sense.

If you are going autocracy, just Dow them and send your musicians in.

I think it makes sense - governments can (and have) deny foreign musicians entry.

Using them when there's a war on is obviously questionable, but simply removing the ability would make them way too hard to use.

Given that you get a tourism bonus just having open boarders; your borders are going to be open anyway if you are sending Musicians on concert tours.

It's Great Phophets that need to be subjected to the hostile missionary penalty.

i'd be in favor of relaxing it to where you only need Friendly + Embassy (maybe a DoF instead?) to send a Musician into their border. but the reason behind it for me is to actually make AIs more of a threat to me with Tourism than they currently are. downside is now you have both Missionaries/Prophets AND Musicians mucking you up.

the Autocracy strategy above is interesting. hadn't thought of it but i try to not think of Musicians anyway.

i've always been in favor of a choosable Founder Belief maybe called "Religious Isolationism" that just locks out non-yourreligion Prophets/Missionaries into the borders of any city following your religion. religious pressure would still apply.

I declared war on Babylon to get my musician into his territory, and won upon clicking the concert tour button. Very Dethklok, very metal. Startings a wars just to dos a concert? That ams totalies brutals. Requiring open borders is irrelevant because the tour is the last thing you do and this is how most culture victories end.

And teach the AIs to do this, I'm sick of seeing "+40" and "Exotic" float over every concert tour an AI performs.

Musicians are kind of odd. A concert tour sounds benign, but in game terms it's an offensive weapon. So I think there needs to be a defense against it peacetime. Not necessarily open borders, but it doesn't bother me as is.

It's fine as it is. If you have open borders already (as you should do when going CV), there is no problem. If you don't have open borders, you have probably pissed the enemy, and you can just DoW him and send musicans then, escrted by your military ofc.

I definitely think Musicians should require open borders, and in order to make the Royal Albert Hall analogy work, they should also NOT be allowed to perform a concert tour if you're at war. It already doesn't make sense that the cultural victory is the second most warmongering victory condition. That would alleviate it. But then cultural victories will be harder, so perhaps some tweaks would be necessary to re-balance it.

Also, I think open borders should be required to be mutual, like defensive pacts. It's kind of silly that I never allow open borders to the AI after Industrial. I'd rather just pay 1 or 2 GPT for their open borders. Even if they don't like me and demand like 20 GPT for their open borders, they don't value my open borders enough to make it worth decreasing 20 GPT to 18 GPT. But if open borders had to be mutual, then in going for a cultural victory I would have to open myself up to their tourism as well.

yeah On Tour is just a hilarious game mechanic and nothing else. but the imagery is priceless (if at war)

kind of conjures the USO concert scene in Apocalypse Now

Dralix said:

Musicians are kind of odd. A concert tour sounds benign, but in game terms it's an offensive weapon. So I think there needs to be a defense against it peacetime. Not necessarily open borders, but it doesn't bother me as is.

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Wouldn't great writers be considered as anti-great musicians? After all, they offer culture bombs or does that not counter cultural influence?

As for musicians and open borders, in terms of gameplay, it should remain as is, so as not to make cultural victories too easy.