World History Mod development thread

Back from my trip. Will be busy tonight and perhaps a little until Friday.

@johnny- I really appreciate the assistance. It sounds like you have a lot that I can use. I couldn't possibly look at it all now, but tommorow I should be mostly free to give it my full attention. I'll update on this within 2 days.

On the missing civs:

Finland- oops, now included but debatable (I like to disclude civs that can somewhat be represented by another. For example, Namibia by South Africa, although this example is on a much smaller scale).
Lapps- doubtable but possible (as a niche civ)
Belgium- oops, now included.
Swizterland- oops, now included (well, I forgot to fix it, so it will be sometime today).
Spain- big oops, now included, although technically I could just have Aragon change its name to Spain.
Portugal- big oops, now included.
Serbia- my bad, included. Though I'll have to decide how I will do Yugoslavia.
Romania- now included but debatable.
Armenia- is already included. This is not a European country.
Georgia- included, and to be debated.

@Gooblah- I am aware of the huge importance of the Pheonecians- this was a big accidental omission; it is now included, and it should be involved in some amount of historical gameplay.

I wonder what I will do for the water peoples (or whatever they were called). They would make for a very interesting twist to the Levant part of the mediterannean history.

And just so everyone (and especially Grishnash) knows, Wolof is, for now, included! I was in a rush and didn't want to bother everyone with another post, so I ended up editing it in, and it may have passed unnoticed.


I'll update soon on the religion resources suggested by Johny smith and the progress I make (if any) troubleshooting. :)

Kevin
 
Kev, I have been working on a new economic/production model that I think you might like to look at, but I cannot be for sure how doable this is, although I am pretty darn confident. My idea is focused on simulating real economics so that other civics and strategies may be built upon it. Sorry that it is a bit long-winded, but if you have questions, I encourage you to ask. Its more complicated on paper than in the game I assure you.

First of all, the entire system may be based on the quantization of resources if you so choose, but it can work without it. The entire old system as we know it would be scrapped, so I won't really go about describing the differences between the two systems as some parts will sound similar.

All production improvements (cattle, wind/watermills, mines, etc.) will generate :hammers:.

Each city will have a sort of production balance sheet in the city window(s).

The city balance sheet will have a column displaying the number of :hammers: that are produced by improvements within the city's borders. Each city will consume a certain number of :hammers: so there will be another column indicating the amount of :hammers: consumed by production and city maintainence (city maintainence would be a new idea). The final column would indicate the balance of :hammers:. In the event of a surplus, you are in good shape. In the event of a deficit, the city cannot build buildings or units and there will be a + #:mad: for decaying infrastructure in the city.

However, having enough productivity to build units and structures in cities will not be enough, because people don't just produce things for free. In this sense, the monetary system will be revamped.

You cannot have gold until you discover it. This makes enough sense for me not to explain it. Until gold is discovered, society will operate off of slavery as it did before gold to construct and build, but this cannot go on forever. When you do discover and mine gold, what gold you produce belongs to the government. When the slavery civic is dropped, cities demand gold for their production, so not only do you need to ensure that cities have the material to be productive, you must PAY for production.

So there will be an exchange system, like 1 :gold: = 2 :hammers:. When you want to produce a building in a city that costs 100 :hammers:, then 100:hammers: will be subtracted from the city's productivity balance and 50 :gold: will be subtracted from your treasury. An important note is that production is not owned by the government but by the cities (unless you are in a nationalization civic which I have yet to work out).
 
Double Post: Continued

However, it doesn't end there. By purchasing something with your gold, you have injected money into circulation. Now you have a real economy. The more gold in circulation (not in your treasury), the quicker your economy and population will grow. At this point, you may begin to levy taxes and bring some of that gold back into your treasury to continue production. Another balance sheet will be near the research bar indicating the amount of gold in circulation, the amount of gold being mined, the amount of gold being brought in by taxes, and the treasury balance.

If the base exchange rate for gold and productivity is 1 :gold: = 2 :hammers:, then inflation/deflation is calculated by:

Total Productivity (GDP/GNP) / Total Gold in Circulation X 2 = amount of :hammers: per 1 :gold:

Deflation Example: 1000 :hammers: / 500 :gold: X 2 = 4, therefore 1 :gold: = 4 :hammers:.

Stable Example: 1000 :hammers: / 1000 :gold: X 2 = 2, therefore 1 :gold: = 2 :hammers:. No Change.

Inflation Example: 500 :hammers: / 1000 :gold: X 2 = 1, therefore 1 :gold: = 1 :hammers:.

Should inflation spiral out of control (hyper inflation) the player will be able to heavily tax its people (producing anger and instability) to pull gold out of circulation and balance wealth and productivity.

The player will now have real monetary control and begin to use economic strategies that were previously unavailable.

Overwhelmed yet?
 
Also, I just noticed:

Nanzhao and Siam/Thailand should be separate. There's little connection between the Siamese states Sukhothai and successors Ayutthaya and the modern Kingdom of Thailand and Nanzhao. They used to say Sukhothai was founded by ethnic Thais fleeing from the Mongol conquest of Nanzhao but that was disproved.

Also I feel South East Asia, especially Maritime South East Asia, is under-represented. You might like to consider Laos, Shans, Brunei, Malacca, Aceh, Tidore, Ternate, etc, as well as modern Philippines, Malaysia and Indonesia as well. You might also like to include the Khazar Empire (a Jewish empire based in Ukraine and southern Russia) and the Uyghur Empire (very influential in central Asia. Were Manicheans, Nestorian Christians and Buddhists before converting to Islam)
 
I think Indonesia should be in there (it has the highest islamic population in the world). i wouldn't put the others in.
 
Yay!

As for how to implement Yugoslavia:

after the end of World war I, the Treaty of Versailles added to the humiliation of Austria. The Serbs, Montenegrins, and other ethnic groups in the Balkan were lumped into a more powerful Slavic state, Yugoslavia.

(name change: Serbia into Yugoslavia, absorb Montenegro)
(Expand: Yugoslavia should control entire eastern Adriatic coast except Greece)

Everything was fine and dandy until war broke out again, resulting in the creation of Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia/Herzegovina, Serbia, Montenegro (2006), and now Kosovo (2008).
 
@kevinman4404:
Considering your comprehensive resource list I am sure it is just an oversight that you haven't added Buffalo/Bison to it yet. ;)
 
While I do enjoy open debate on subjects like what civilizations would be included, I fear that this debate has been drawn out for too long; with the number of civs to be included, as well as the size of the map, even a powerful PC would struggle. I think it is time to now focus just a little bit more on gameplay and game mechanics.
 
Completely agree, GS. It would be good to have some gameplay stuff set in stone for Kevin to work on after he irons out the bugs he's on atm. to that end, what were you planning on working on next, Kevin?
 
I started working on a Civilization List for the Middle East/West Asia. I'm attempting to keep the number of Civs in the region to 5 at the maximum (until the Modern Age). The Mesopotamian Civs all conquered one another over and over, so at any given time, there was usually 1 large Civ and 2 minor Civs in play there.

Spoiler :
West Asian/Middle Eastern/Iranian Civs:

Mesopotamia:
Sumerian Empire
Akkadian Empire
Assyrian Empire
Babylonian Empire
Hittite Empire
Phonecian Empire
Cannaanite Empire
Judean Empire
Persian Empire
Seleucid Empire
Scythian Empire
Phrygian Empire
Bactrian Empire


Islamic:

Arabian Empire (as well as all other names)
Ottoman Empire
Abbasid Empire
Ummayyad Empire
Safavid Empire

Modern:

Syria
Iran
Iraq
Saudi Arabia
Israel
Palestine
Jordan
Afghanistan
Pakistan
Lebanon
Yemen
Oman

United Arab Emirates (can include Qatar, Bahrain, Kuwait)


Edit: Here's Europe, up to the Protestant Reformation:

Spoiler :
European Civilizations (ex. Russia):

Classical Mediterranean (Greek):
Minoan Empire
Mycenean Empire
Dorian Empire
Ionian Empire
Athenian Empire
Spartan Empire
Theban Empire
Macedonian Empire
Greek Empire (after fall of Alexander the Great, represents part of Empire that was controlled by Greek general)

Classical Mediterranean (Latin/Phonecian):
Etruscan Empire
Roman Republic/Roman Empire/West Roman Empire
Syracusan Empire
Carthaginian Empire
East Roman Empire/Byzantine Empire

Post-Latin ‘Barbarians’:
Visigothic Empire
Ostrogothic Empire
Hunnic Empire
Vandalian Empire
(Note: This entire group could be represented by Barbarians and Independents)


Post-Latin Germanic Civilizations:
Saxon Empire
Slavic Empire
Lombardian Empire
Papal States
Frankish Empire/Holy Roman Empire
Magyar Empire
Viking Empire

Medieval European Civilizations:
Holy Roman Empire (existed, but in a different state of power)
French Empire
Kingdom of Sicily
Aragon
Castille
Leon
Navarre

Portugal
Flanders
English Empire
Scottish Empire

High/Late Medieval Civilizations:
Norman Empire (Viking settlements, conquered Flanders and northern France, then England)
Holy Roman Empire (still there!)
Byzantine Empire
Croatia
Serbia
Hungary

Polish-Lithuanian Empire (to appease those who care, and I think it had some influence)

Renaissance Era/Protestant Reformation Europe:
French Empire
Holy Roman Empire (controlled Savoy, Swiss Conf, Milan, Florence, Corsica)
Bohemia
Swiss Confederation
Savoy

Republic of Venice (also controlled Crete, Ionian Islands, Cyprus)
Papal States
Naples
Sicily
Sardinia

Spain (also controlled Naples, Sicily, Sardinia)
Corsica
Florence

Hungary
Polish-Lithuanian Empire
Hungary
Portugal
Moldavia
Denmark
Netherlands
Sweden
England (dominated Ireland)
Scotland
Ireland
Republic of Genoa

Ottoman Empire
Teutonic Order
Norway
Austria (splits from Hungary and HRE circa 1650)
Prussia (splits from Teutonic Order around same time as Austria)

 
Post-Latin Germanic Civilizations:
Saxon Empire
Slavic Empire
Lombardian Empire
Papal States
Frankish Empire/Holy Roman Empire
Magyar Empire
Viking Empire

What slavic Empire? Also i think the Avar empire should be there.

Medieval European Civilizations:
Holy Roman Empire (existed, but in a different state of power)
French Empire
Kingdom of Sicily
Aragon
Castille
Leon
Navarre
Portugal
Flanders
English Empire
Scottish Empire

Poland should be here, and become Poland-Lithuania at the beggining of the Renaissance.

High/Late Medieval Civilizations:
Norman Empire (Viking settlements, conquered Flanders and northern France, then England)
Holy Roman Empire (still there!)
Byzantine Empire
Croatia
Serbia
Hungary
Polish-Lithuanian Empire (to appease those who care, and I think it had some influence)

As i said, should remain as Poland till the Renaissance. And what do you mean it had some influence? At that time Poland had the MOST influence of all of europe. (although it is partially due to the black death not effecting poland).

Prussia (splits from Teutonic Order around same time as Austria)

Teutonic order should have been long gone by now. i think some German presence in the baltic area remained after that, so how about the Prussians are actually the Germanic peoples in the Baltic Areas, revolting against Poland? Also i disagree with it starting at the same time as austria as at that time it was only an importantless vassal of Poland. I think it should remain a vassal of Poland untill the Partitions of Poland where it becomes indepent. I know in real life it's different, but for gameplay purposes it makes the most sense.

Holy Roman Empire (controlled Savoy, Swiss Conf, Milan, Florence, Corsica)

I think HRE should be an alliance like the Warsaw Pact or Nato, and the states of the HRE should be independent. For example, Brandenburg, Austria, Switzerland, Bavaria etc.
 
I was kidding about Poland.

Anyways, I was debating the Avars. I'm using a high-school textbook (pretty modern), and its maps, so there are big gaps to a point. Anyways, here's the rest (up to Treaty of Versailles):

Spoiler :
Hapsburg Era European Civilizations:
Hapsburg Empire (controls Portugal, Spain, Naples, Sicily, Sardinia, Corsica, Milan, Netherlands)
England
Scotland
Ireland
France
Netherlands (revolts in 1560, gains recognition of independence in 1648)
Papal States
Venice
Hungary
Transylvania
Ottoman Empire
Polish-Lithuanian Empire
Sweden
Denmark
Norway
Holy Roman Empire
Austria
Brandenburg

Thirty Years War Era (1648) Europe
Spain (controls Belgium, Sardinia, Sicily, south Italy, Milan)
Portugal
Austria (controls Bohemia, Silesia, Hungary, Bavaria)
Holy Roman Empire (controls Saxony, Germany; VERY unstable)
Swiss Federation
France
Italian City-States (north Italy ex. Milan)
Papal States
England
Scotland
Ireland
Hungary
Poland
Prussia (Baltic States, Brandenburg, Westphalia)
Ottoman Empire
Transylvania
Denmark
Norway
Dutch Netherlands

Post-Thirty Years War Era (1700) Europe

England (controls Scotland, Ireland)
France (shaky, will become highly unstable soon)
Spain (now controls Swiss Federation, Belgium, South Italy, Sicily, Sardinia)
Portugal
Prussia
Poland
Sweden (now controls German Baltic coast)
Norway
Denmark
Italian City-States (now controls Papal States)
Holy Roman Empire (now 360 principalities; still unstable; will remain like this until Bismarck comes round)
Ottoman Empire
Netherlands
Swiss Federation

Napoleonic Europe
French Empire (controls France, Corsica, Elba, Papal States, Illyrian Provinces, Netherlands, Belgium, vassalized Spain, Conf. Rhine, Switz. Italy, Naples, and Warsaw)
Spain
Portugal
United Kingdom
Austrian Empire (allied with France)
Confederation of the Rhine
Switzerland
Kingdom of Italy
Kingdom of Naples

Sardinia
Sicily
Prussia
Kingdom of Norway and Denmark (allied with France, controls Iceland)
Sweden
Grand Duchy of Warsaw
Ottoman Empire
Montenegro

Post-Napoleonic Europe (1815):

France
United Kingdom
Spain
Portugal
Switzerland
German Confederation
Prussia
Austrian Empire
Montenegro
Ottoman Empire
Papal States
Kingdom of the Two Sicilies
Kingdom of Sardinia
Italian City States (north Italy)
Denmark
Kingdom of Norway and Sweden
Netherlands (incl. Belgium)

Revolutionary Europe (1848):
All nations above (all are unstable), plus
Belgium
Greece

Post-Industrial Revolution Europe

Germany
France
Belgium
Netherlands
Switzerland
Austria-Hungary
Italy
Spain
Portugal
United Kingdom
Norway
Sweden
Denmark
Montenegro
Greece
Serbia
Romania

Ottoman Empire

Pre-WWI Europe

United Kingdom
France
Portugal
Spain
Switzerland
Luxembourg
Netherlands
Belgium
Norway
Sweden
Denmark
Germany
Austria Hungary
Serbia
Montenegro
Romania
Bulgaria
Greece
Albania

Ottoman Empire (reduced to current Turkish claims in Europe)



Post-WWI Europe

United Kingdom
France
Luxembourg
Netherlands
Belgium
Spain
Portugal
Switxerland
Italy
Austria
Hungary
Czechoslovakia
Germany
Poland
Lithuania
Latvia
Estonia
Finland
Norway
Sweden
Denmark
Yugoslavia
Romania
Greece
Albania
Bulgaria


Also, I agree with your points about Prussia. Finally, the HRE became pretty unstable following the Protestant reformation. It still held, but people became Bavarian or Saxon or Brandenburgian rather than Holy Roman. Soon, ti dissolved into tiny principalities loosely bound by the HRE. To make life easy (gameplay terms), I think it should stay the HRE but be really unstable.
 
I personally think the Holy Roman Empire should be a United Nations Equivalent for the Middle Ages, or an alternative/part of the Apostolic Palace. i.e. it shouldn't be a civ as such, rather a concept that unites civs into a loose, unstable alliance. Something like the UN, or perhaps a Civic (See Council of overlord/underlord from FFH. Having said that, I've never seen what that does, so I may be off base there).
 
I wouldn't include the Grand Duchy of Warsaw. To small and it was just a vassal. Perhaps there could be an event during Napoleonic Europe when Napoleon is invading Russia for Polish troops to join him? even though there is no Poland?

Also at that time, Poland was having a major revolt against prussia, austria and russia ounce every decade. So some instability in the area is a must imo.
 
Again, the Holy Roman Empire basically represented....

Bohemia, Flanders, the Netherlands, Florence, Savoy, Switzerland, Milan, Genoa, Austria, Brandenburg, and hundreds of small German principalities. Having this many Civilizations represented in addition to all of the other Civilizations (Papal States, Spain, Navarre, France, England, Scotland, Ireland, Poland-Lithuania, Hungary, Moldavia, Ottoman Empire, Teutonic Order, Denmark, Sweden, and Norway) would make it an extremely crowded map.

I think the Holy Roman Empire should be a Civilization, but different parts of it should wax in and out of its borders, and it should really unstable as soon as the Black Death and Protestant Reformation hit.

Again, I don't know too much about European History, so I'll do some research on Wikipedia and in the public library. If all else fails, I could get a friend to check some books out from a university library.
 
I don't really see the point of having all those small german nations if HRE is just gonna come in and take all their cities.
 
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