Indonesia discussion
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Petiscator
King
At first I was perplexed about the Candi, since having several religions in your cities pratically means that your religion sucks.
Then I realized that the (slight) pressure coming from Trade routes allows you to have different faiths without losing the overall control.
That's actually a very smart concept.
Then I realized that the (slight) pressure coming from Trade routes allows you to have different faiths without losing the overall control.
That's actually a very smart concept.
PhilBowles
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It's very feasible to have multiple religions in your cities without any of the others becoming dominant, as long as yours exerts the most pressure (indeed the more religions you have, the less likely any foreign religion will be dominant since the available followers have to be divided a larger number of ways). And yes, targeting cities of other religions with trade will help this (not only in the city directly connected to the trade route; presumably once the religion is in your territory it can spread to neighbouring cities like any other).
I think the candi is the most interesting of the new uniques we've seen, and the religion system as a whole would benefit from having more effects that trigger based on having different religions in your cities, not too dissimilar from the way Civ IV allowed you to build temples to each religion present in a city.
Crafty Bison
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Ya, but one thing it does mean is that you can't go full ICS cos you're gonna need a couple more pop per city than usual (or at least in the fresh water cities). Also The fact that it's GP generation lends itself to a slightly higher pop for specialists as well. Assuming you went wide in the beggining, it'll be difficult to manage your civ structure to stay wide and avoid the 'in between' type civs. Also the number of trade routes seems quite limited (at least early), so It might not be the complete Candi magnifier you might think.
My personal strategy would be to found but keep to 1 city, so it adds the follower pop to the other cities but lets other religions get in too. It means you can pick a founder like interfaith dialogue or a follower like holy warriors and do it all from 1 city. Plus you don't have to compete to get the religious buildings or per city happy followers. Plus you might get something good from other religions. It raises interersting questions about whether it's worth using piety (dunno what the reformation abilities will do, and I think with rationalism they'd make a great mayan or wide korean style science civ, though the cheaper missionaries would be of benefit), and whether to enhance for cheaper missionaries (if Interfaith was taken, or just to manage religion spread) or something else.
Feasible, yes. Optimal? No.
The problem with the traditionnal religion pressure is that it comes from your neighbours. But when your own religion does well it becomes dominant in the surrounding cities which stops to propagate their former religion. In G&K, having a strong domestic faith and being open to foreign cults are 2 options that are somewhat antithetic. I believe that with the religion infiltrating through trade routes you can have your cake and eat it.
Hence the ideal plan for Indonesia:
1) Found your three cities with their unique luxuries near a river;
2) Attract merchants from the whole wide world due to a better ressource diversity in those cities;
3) Some exotic religions coming from some very very far countries appear in your cities;
4)Candies! : more religions, more faith;
5) Dominate the area with your religion without losing the mighty bonus of your candies;
6) Profit.
Good plan if you are not seeking for a religious predominance and use your faith for purchasing great people. ( The Candi is also a normal garden after all.)
Nirosi
Hymenopus Coronatus
Naah, I think they'd be very effective for cultural victory:
1) Play Gigant Archipelage
2) Have 4-7 cities.
3) Tech up to Astronomy, with a Teology priority.
4) Trade with different holy cities.
5) Let your cities convert each other.
6) Make a lot of GWAMs with your Chandies.
7) Unite all the Civilizations under the Greater Good.
8) Space Phase
1) Play Gigant Archipelage
2) Have 4-7 cities.
3) Tech up to Astronomy, with a Teology priority.
4) Trade with different holy cities.
5) Let your cities convert each other.
6) Make a lot of GWAMs with your Chandies.
7) Unite all the Civilizations under the Greater Good.
8) Space Phase
Crafty Bison
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Ya I figure with culture it'll be too tough to build all the wonders (they're the ones that mostly hold the great work slots and themeing bonuses), but with science you naturally make the GP's and beakers from the garden, extra great person buying and (if u got it) the interfaith antics.
Do trade routes that they make also transfer the faith? If so, then yes, more potential
. I dunno if the AI will be smart enough to realise the importance of resource diversity though. As a general rule, I never over-estimate the AI . It'd add yet another layer, cos you'd have to balance being nice enough that they can and want to explore your lands and trade with you, with the whole warring thing that's required by going wide and aided by the UU.The owner of the Trade route spreads the religion of the departure city to the target one, I think.
If so, then yes, more potential
I believe that the AI will be coded with that as a priority, ignoring some more unpredictable parameters.
As a general rule, I never over-estimate the AI
Well, let's say that my plan is "ideal" only in theory for the moment.
Crafty Bison
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You think tall would be better than wide? I thought about it cos Candi's a garden, and UA stops after 3 of the right cities. If you went tall then it'd be cultural over science, cos (I imagine anyway) the GWAMs will be on different counters. If you have the land perfect for you then it sounds good, but if not then you might not be able to get your 3 cities easily going tall, you might not get many fresh water cities and you might have a hard time getting iron for the UU. Also you'd have fewer Candi's. However tall civs that pump out the faith are few and far between, and religion can be so so good for cultural games. I think if you find yourself with great Indonesian land to do it then it'd be a fine option, but otherwise it'd be tough.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
I have no idea which victory they're best for, all I know is it'll probably involve getting great persons from faith. My guess is cultural would be best if Great AWM all count separately when purchased by faith. If not, science could very well be valid if you just go for a bunch of Great Scientists. Use the Reliquary Enhancer belief, build Candis that get a bunch of religions, and you'll be set. In fact, you probably want the Candi cities to get another civ's religion first so it can build missionaries and spread that religion to other Candi cities.
ETA: I suspect wide is better for them. More cities = more opportunities for religions and more places to fit great work slots.
ETA: I suspect wide is better for them. More cities = more opportunities for religions and more places to fit great work slots.
Nirosi
Hymenopus Coronatus
I think it's better to have some big core cities with freshwateer and colonies for delivering different religions to them.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
I guess that makes some sense. You'd have to be more diligent that way.
Either way, the unraisable cities with the luxuries need to be on the periphery. The reason is to attract trade routes to your unique resources (which they'll benefit from) from which they will spread their religion.
Either way, the unraisable cities with the luxuries need to be on the periphery. The reason is to attract trade routes to your unique resources (which they'll benefit from) from which they will spread their religion.
seancolorado
Deity
@turingmachine (from the thread that got closed)
Indonesia is part of Southeast Asia, not South Asia. (But I understand what you meant - in civ terms you take what you get from the neglected South/Southeast Asian area)
Indonesia is part of Southeast Asia, not South Asia. (But I understand what you meant - in civ terms you take what you get from the neglected South/Southeast Asian area)
FYI, how to pronounce Candi is [ch]-[ʌ]-[n]-[d]-
actually, C pronounce not as [ch], because in Indonesian theres no phonetic [ch] just [c] but not as in [k]
Candi is place of Indonesian worship in kingdom era, it similar as wat.
as far as i know, there 3 religion that build Candi as place of worship; Hinduism, Buddhism, and Catholicism.
example Hindus Candi : Candi Prambanan
it is built surrounding with mythic story.
There is a prince, who wants marry a Queen. And queen agree as long as prince make a thousand Candi in one day. Using supernatural power, the prince have made 999 Candi, and Queen have plot to stop him. Queen tell maid to pounding rice and make fire. Because of that, the rooster began to crow. The prince was fooled. Prince cursed Queen and become the thousandth Candi.
example of Buddhist Candi: Candi Borobudur
example of Catholic Candi: Candi Hati Kudus Yesus (Sacred Heart Jesus Candi)
no other Indonesia's state religion that have Candi (Islam and Protestant)
actually, C pronounce not as [ch], because in Indonesian theres no phonetic [ch] just [c] but not as in [k]
Candi is place of Indonesian worship in kingdom era, it similar as wat.
as far as i know, there 3 religion that build Candi as place of worship; Hinduism, Buddhism, and Catholicism.
example Hindus Candi : Candi Prambanan
it is built surrounding with mythic story.
There is a prince, who wants marry a Queen. And queen agree as long as prince make a thousand Candi in one day. Using supernatural power, the prince have made 999 Candi, and Queen have plot to stop him. Queen tell maid to pounding rice and make fire. Because of that, the rooster began to crow. The prince was fooled. Prince cursed Queen and become the thousandth Candi.
example of Buddhist Candi: Candi Borobudur
example of Catholic Candi: Candi Hati Kudus Yesus (Sacred Heart Jesus Candi)
no other Indonesia's state religion that have Candi (Islam and Protestant)
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
The fact that there are three religions that have used them explain the UB's effects to me. Now I understand most of Indonesia. Really a well-thought out Civ even if a very eclectic one.
What make me think is, why Candi replacing Garden?
make Candi producing great people faster.
as i know Indonesian not producing so many great person.
great engineer? I dont know single great architect.
great scientist? Indonesian falling behind from western technology in colonisation era
great merchant? hmmm... i dont know.
great musician? nope
great painter? only Affandi that i know
great writer? Chairil anwar
Well, we have stuff in the game like coffee house replacing windmill so whatever reason Firaxis have is more gameplay related.
seancolorado
Deity
There are actually many great people born out of the ancient eras and Majapahit era, but it is difficult to distinguish who did what sometimes because the documentation and stories are not always clear
Modern times, yes there are not really any scientists and engineers (Thanks a lot Portugal, Netherlands and Japan...
). Merchants, I have no knowledge about.There are plenty of 'great' musicians, painters and writers however throughout the entire Indonesian history - from early kingdoms like Srivijaya, to later on such as within Mataram Sultanate, and even currently modern day Indonesia.
