Modelling population growth, population density, emigration and immigration. etc.

They really need to do better with this as it is a large part of the history of humanity and civilization. Whether it be brain drain from third world countries and overpopulation or the mass migration of Europeans to the US and Latin America in the 1800s, we have next to nothing to model this with in Civ3. It would be nice to be able to show, how distinct ehtnic groups move about, often beyond their original civilization's borders. Anyhow, just my thoughts. Does anyone have any ideas on this?

How would you model it in game? Random events? People moving to civilizations that have a higher culture?

Higher culture would count but also overpopulation in one civ's cities would lead to people leaving and going to other another civ's relatively empty cities IF that civ was in the same culture group or if something like lots of gold, diamonds, or other important resources were discovered. Some of it would be random, such as a famine in one country leads to starvation and emigration out to somewhere else. I'm not sure what all should influence whether people move out of one civ and to another and that is why I wanted others' ideas as well. Also, the issue of whether the new arrivals are loyal or not to their old civ would be important. Perhaps, they might try to revolt and join the civ from which they emigrated. It would add a new dynamic to the game that became especially important after the age of sail makes transport of goods and people across the seas and oceans possible.

Cities and Rural Areas-could help in a migration from rural to cities idea.

People would leave because:

- things are crappy
- a war broke out
- overpopulation
- a new government they don't approve of
- to find new life and prosperity

People would come because:

- your culture is great
- you are more accepting of immigrants and refugees
- you have great health care and education
- you have more living space
- you have a growing population of their ethnicity (and they come live in "little italy", "china town", or whatever district they want to create)

The strategic benefit: faster growing population
The strategic cost: greater chance of war weariness (if you fight their homeland), possibility of civil war or just corruption, and even greater hazards if your wealth becomes distributed unequally (unequal rights, discrimination, etc.)

I think this also ties, invariably, to jobs... which are not yet modelled in Civ.

an interesting idea to add to civ.

I guess you could make new immigrants more difficult to keep happy, and unhappy citizens have a possibility to emmigrate.

And some civs would welcome immigrants and others would block their borders from allowing their people to leave.

searcheagle said:

And some civs would welcome immigrants and others would block their borders from allowing their people to leave.

Click to expand...

Depending on the type of government... And also the tech level as an early despotic government wouldn't be able to control it's entire population... Would perhaps mean that anarchy would need reworking as otherwise huge amounts of people could emigrate whilst you were changing governments.

A portion of the unhappy part of your population would leave because:

• a war continues for a long time
• unhappiness for a long time
• overpopulation
• economic poverty (unemployment)

When immigrants leave, a city loses one population. Immigration from a border town decreases that town's chances of changing allegience to another civ for a period of time until another civ has a sizeable community of your expats. In that case a cultural flip would be more likely.
This could also result in your cities not growing, and the number of unhappies would remain the same until you change something.

People would come because:

• your culture is great and willing to accept immigrants
• your culture is poor but still willing to accept immigrants
• your gov't allows new immigrants and refugees
• your cities are still small and have great growth potential

Immigrants would come and build you an aquaduct, for example, instantly. A random event would give an immigrant-friendly country little bonuses.

Actually, I am not sure this is necessary.

I would like to see emigration within a civ. Namely when citizens become disaffected because "its too crowded", they can move to another city within your Civ that has enough improvements, wonders, etc until equilibrium is reached. Perhaps limit one population point per every few turns.

Hmmm....

Emigration:

Things which increase it:
1) High Population (city overcrowding).

2) Disease and plagues.

3) Low Sufferage and/or Libertarianism, high Legalism.

4) Low Nationalism.

5) High War Weariness, Pollution and/or Crime/Corruption.

6) Low Culture and/or Happiness.

7) Currently in Most shunned Government/Religion Type.

8) Large numbers of your ethnic group in a foreign civ.

Immigration:

1) High Culture and/or happiness.

2) Low Nationalism.

3) Having large population of a particular ethnic group in your cities.

4) Low Pollution and/or crime/corruption.

5) No/low disease/plague levels.

6) Currently in an potential 'emigre's' most preferred government/religion type.

7) High Sufferage and/or libertarianism, low legalism.

8) Currently at peace.

There are two possible ways this emigration/immigration could work. Either the population disappears from one city and an equivalent population appears in the destination city. This might occur even in the second model IF the two cities are next door to each other. The second model (and the one I prefer), is that an 'Emigre' or 'Refugee' Unit might appear outside the appropriate city, and start moving towards the closest city/civ that matches its 'Immigration Criteria'. This model is preferred because then you can 'turn back' or even 'kill' the emigre unit-either to prevent their entry or their exit. Doing so, though, should carry heavy diplomatic penalties, especially to the civ the unit belonged to (if appropriate!) When the unit appears at the borders of a civ it wants to enter, a pop-up of your domestic advisor will warn you of this fact, and ask what you want to do. You could either turn them back or let them in. If you choose the latter, then they are automatically transplanted to the closest city to your borders, and they will retain their nationality. Warning, though, if you have your nationality settings quite high, then accepting refugees may cause an increase in unhappiness!
Lastly, many of the above criteria could also apply to intra-civ migrations. With many of the same effects.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

I think immigrants should be made into a unit. The unit would be out of your direct control(i.e. you cant tell it what to do, but it keeps your colors until it joins another Civ's city), but your military units can interact with it.

Tile A has a immigrant unit. Tile B has a cavalry unit.

You drag the cavalry unit to Tile A. A prompt appears:

What are your orders, sire?
- Escort immigrants to destination
- Retake and order them home
- Eliminate them
- Nevermind, my bad

There would also be a sea immigration unit as well, a transport with immigrants onboard. Immigrant units would travel to your coastal cities then board these ships. You would have identical interaction with your naval vessals and immigrant ships as you did with land units above.

collin_stp said:

an interesting idea to add to civ.

I guess you could make new immigrants more difficult to keep happy, and unhappy citizens have a possibility to emmigrate.

Click to expand...

I would strongly oppose the idea of new immigrants being harder to keep happy, they are often much easier to keep happy. For example somebody living in your civ already might be protesting about not having enough rights or too high of taxes while the immigrant is happy thinking thank god I escaped that evil despot this is great here I don't have to fear for my life everyday.

I think the whole immigration idea is lame for this game, unless they're willing to remake America out of immigrants. A civ can form out of immigrants more often than it can out of an indigenous nationality. Just look at all the countries in the Americas, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, etc.

So.
To immitate the historic processes, countries with a large population of undesirables - unhappies, religious and ethnic minorities, criminals, etc. - should resettle such ppl in far away lands to get benefits in core cities. Naturally, such distant lands will some day separate and form new civs - it's guaranteed. Just like some wonders expire so will large empires, especially those stretching across the oceans, will break up after certain techs are discovered. This doesn't mean you don't have to develop such cities, development brings you stability, revenue, and postpones separation.

Furthermore, at the time of separation, you have the choice to choose which part you will control from that point. Also, both civs will most likely speak the same language, so there is a big chance for cultural friendship in the future.

The immigrants themselves should just get up and leave from towns that don't have enough food to grow or jobs (high corruption?) and automatically join a successful city in your civ or another civ. You will just get a message about this event.

Well, Beloyar, there is nothing in my model to prevent exactly what you are describing. Essentially, if your 'emigre' unit can't find a city that meets its criteria OR if no-one will let them into their nation, then said unit could travel off into 'unknown' territory and found its own city.
If this happened often enough, then you could get a pseudo state appearing-one which might break away later in the game if you don't treat it right!
In addition, there would be nothing to stop you from creating settlers with a specific nationality or religion-sort of the way you can in Civ3!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

Aussie, if you're still confused why I called the idea lame, don't take offense, because I was a proponent of the idea as well.
But sure, your own ideas also make sense. I was thinking the same. Immigrants went on their own and founded cities in new lands, which were later joined to some country in the area or formed their own. Minorities always were on the move from gov'ts that didn't approve of them.

Aussie_Lurker said:

Well, Beloyar, there is nothing in my model to prevent exactly what you are describing. Essentially, if your 'emigre' unit can't find a city that meets its criteria OR if no-one will let them into their nation, then said unit could travel off into 'unknown' territory and found its own city.
If this happened often enough, then you could get a pseudo state appearing-one which might break away later in the game if you don't treat it right!
In addition, there would be nothing to stop you from creating settlers with a specific nationality or religion-sort of the way you can in Civ3!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

Click to expand...

As I've said in your thread, Beloyar, I didn't take offense at all. As it happens I didn't explain my idea well enough and your query gave me an opportunity to expand on what I had said previously.
Anyhow, I definitely feel that SOME kind of immigration model is in order!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.