Status: Pending Approval to Community Patch / Community Balance Patch Beta.
Current build notes:
Spoiler:
General
Masters now receive a +33% tourism bonus against their vassals
Vassals can no longer be considered for Choose Host or World Leader – but they still become host of the World Congress upon founding it.
Death of a Vassal's unit inside his territory now counts for failed protect score
Death of a Vassal's unit inside enemy territory no longer counts for failed protect score
Pillaged vassal territory now applies a small failed protect score
Notifications related to Vassalage have received an upgrade to be more descriptive.
Upon capitulation (forced vassalage as part of a peace treaty), the new vassal will reset negative diplomatic modifiers similar to civ resurrection. Voluntary vassals are not affected by this.
You can declare war on your vassals, but other teams cannot declare war on your vassals. This provides two options of breaking vassalage: declaration of war, and peaceful liberation (see Vassal Liberation section).
Extended range of failed protect score near vassal cities to 3 hexes away.
Added a new Vassalage Overview – see the Vassalage Overview section
Technology Trading has been moved to Scientific Theory
AI
AI Vassals can denounce their masters – the weight is determined based on how well you've treated your vassal.
AI Masters will never denounce their vassals
Retooled AI evaluation on the following:
Wants to capitulate
Wants to become your voluntary vassal
Wants to end vassalage with master
Wants to accept human's bid to end vassalage
Now evaluate a few flavors (expansion, offense, military training defense, culture, wonder) when determining whether a vassal wants to become a voluntary vassal or not.
For example: Ramesses is 22, Enrico is 10, Shaka is -34, Attila is -14
Note to modders: if you delete those flavors, then the flavor mod difference for that flavor is 0
Common sense evaluation: If an AI is going for diplomatic victory, and the United Nations has started, then they will never accept voluntary vassalage and will attempt to leave vassalage immediately.
New Feature: Vassal Overview
In an effect to provide a unified and easy to manage screen for all things related to Vassalage, I have created the Vassal Overview
If you have vassals, you can select each one individually to receive more details about them
The Vassal Overview provides a concise description of the type of vassalage, how long the vassalage has lasted (and the turn it started) as well as helpful tooltips to provide more meaning to things that can be unclear to the player.
On the left side of the Vassal Details box, you can see basic stats (similar to the top panel for your own civ) for your vassal. You can also see what tech they are researching, and how long
On the right side of the Vassal Details box, you can set your vassal taxes and view details on how they view your vassalage and why they feel that way. You can also liberate your vassal (when applicable, see Vassal Liberation section)
New Feature: Vassal Taxes
You can set vassal taxes on intervals of 5% (from 0%-25%).
Vassal taxes are applied per vassal, but distributed evenly amongst teammates.
Vassal taxes are calculated at the beginning of the vassal's turn and are a percentage of their gross (positive gold) income.
The heavier you tax a vassal, the more they will hate you.
AI teammates will never set taxes for human players.
AI opponents will set taxes based on a number of factors, including how much they like you, and how both of your financial situations are.
New Feature: Vassal Liberation
Masters can now liberate their vassals after a certain period of turns (50 turns on Standard).
Liberation of vassals acts as a peaceful removal of vassalage, and grants a huge positive modifier for liberating a vassal
You may liberate vassals when eligible through the new Vassalage Overview
You may request independence from masters through the new Vassalage Overview
AI masters will liberate you if they like you, and they do not deem you a threat to them
This is not the same as resurrecting a player, so you will not receive a reset in negative diplomatic modifiers.
Bugfixes
Fixed a bug where voluntary vassalage was not being correctly set
Fixed a bug where you could call the LUA function DoBecomeVassal() with invalid civs (for example, could set a civ to be a vassal of itself)
Reversed the function for canBecomeVassal() to be actually sane. This mostly affects modders:
Team1.canBecomeVassal(Team2) now checks if Team1 can become Team2's vassal, was Team2 can become Team1's vassal
Added new function CanMakeVassal() which is simply the reverse of CanBecomeVassal()
Fixed issue where DealAI did not send offers to revoke human vassals
UI
Complete pass on tooltips on the Diplomacy Trade screen related to "Vassal State", "Capitulation", and "Liberation" in an effort to provide more clarity to the player
Hi. Let's talk vassals.
Please understand it has been about 3 years since I've worked with them, so I need time to relearn the functionality (especially since they've been changed from my original design).
What is your current concerns / desires in terms of vassals? What would you like to see? How do you feel about vassals? Are they worth the investment? Do they provide a meaningful benefit to your experience?
Here's an idea to start. Taxing your vassals. You can choose to tax them, or give aid to them. They'll be nine levels to this, each level taking a certain % (maybe a slider from -25% to 25%. Your diplomatic hit/bonus is exponential to the amount of taxes or aid you provide to your vassal. This is a straight percentage of your total GPT.
The goal of this change would be to provide some interaction to your vassals. Although I'm not sure how much interaction currently exists.
Please through around any ideas you might have.
Current ideas:
1. Vassal Tax (see OP)
2. Reset opinion on capitulation (wartime vassalage)
3. Must have a certain "war score" to initiate capitulation.
4. Vassals always vote for you for "Choose Host" and "World Leader" if not already - do a cursory check.
5. Modifier to make vassals more likely to think your resolution is in their interests (unless it directly conflicts - Embargo me, for example)
I always have them enabled and feel it adds a lot to the game. Civ is best when there's lots of players interacting, so having the option of vassaling someone rather than wiping them out keeps things interesting.
The caveat there is I'll never vassal someone who founded a religion since I won't be able to get rid of it. Of course, that's somewhat fitting historically.
So my primary desires out of a vassal are military, religion, then diplomacy. I'm not sure how much of an economic boost they'd have to provide to make that a factor. But I look forward to what you come up with.
One of my biggest concerns would be the fact that your vassals often talk big to you, their, master. They're very, very hostile right after you force them to capitulate, which doesn't make sense. They should feel grateful to you for sparing their lives when you were in the position to completely wipe them off the map. Sure, your vassals can't denounce you nor can they declare war on you but their general attitude still breaks immersion.
One of my biggest concerns would be the fact that your vassals often talk big to you, their, master. They're very, very hostile right after you force them to capitulate, which doesn't make sense. They should feel grateful to you for sparing their lives when you were in the position to completely wipe them off the map. Sure, your vassals can't denounce you nor can they declare war on you but their general attitude still breaks immersion.
What do you think about capitulation resetting their opinion of you (all modifiers reset to 0)? They are now subservient to you, but if you continue to piss them off (through new taxation maybe?) they will turn against you?
Modifying the strategic AI will probably suck, but it may be possible to make a vassal that hates their master focus on a military to try to rebel against them.
What do you think about capitulation resetting their opinion of you (all modifiers reset to 0)? They are now subservient to you, but if you continue to piss them off (through new taxation maybe?) they will turn against you?
Modifying the strategic AI will probably suck, but it may be possible to make a vassal that hates their master focus on a military to try to rebel against them.
That sounds like a great idea! Resetting their opinion of you seems to be the simplest solution.
As for being able to directly declare war with enough hatred though. Right now, it's true that they can still eventually request independence after many turns (not sure how many), and if you deny their request, it automatically leads to war. Presumably, they should've already gathered a sizable army before making such a request. I guess they should just speed up their mustering of forces if they hate their master that much so they can request independence as soon as possible.
I also like the idea of capitulation resetting vassal opinion.
On a different note, I was fighting a joint war recently and have been vassalage turned off ever since. What I realized was: what's stopping me or my war partner from negotiating for capitulation and putting an end to things? Who gets the vassal...whoever makes a deal first? I'm not a big fan of that.
It's the first and simplest thing I could come up with, but how about if a civ is at war with multiple majors, only the civ with the highest warscore at a given time can negotiate for capitulation?
I also like the idea of capitulation resetting vassal opinion.
On a different note, I was fighting a joint war recently and have been vassalage turned off ever since. What I realized was: what's stopping me or my war partner from negotiating for capitulation and putting an end to things? Who gets the vassal...whoever makes a deal first? I'm not a big fan of that.
It's the first and simplest thing I could come up with, but how about if a civ is at war with multiple majors, only the civ with the highest warscore at a given time can negotiate for capitulation?
Don't know if I necessarily agree with you, though. How are you defining "war score"? Don't you think its rather arbitrary whether or not you have the largest "war score"? Or at least unintuitive? It seems really complex for an issue I personally do not consider a high priority.
My opinion is more general: whatever you add to the present formula, the AI MUST be able to handle it. I prefer simplicity with AI proficiency over a nice, juicy design that the AI does not know how to use. Please keep this in mind.
Don't know if I necessarily agree with you, though. How are you defining "war score"? Don't you think its rather arbitrary whether or not you have the largest "war score"? Or at least unintuitive? It seems really complex for an issue I personally do not consider a high priority.
Ah, I guess I've been playing CBP enough that I've forgotten some things weren't in the base game.
"War score" is now a number ranging from -100 to 100 that represents how well a war is going. Taking cities and killing units improves the value, and bonus points are awarding for razing cities. If it weren't an objective value I would agree that it's an arbitrary idea, but as it currently stands I would have no problem tying capitulation to war score.
I just really hate the idea of a civ jumping into a war against a major clearly seeing its last days, contributing little, and coming away with a vassal out of it (meanwhile leaving the civ(s) who actually did most of the work with peace forced upon them and nothing to show for it).
I also like the idea of capitulation resetting vassal opinion.
On a different note, I was fighting a joint war recently and have been vassalage turned off ever since. What I realized was: what's stopping me or my war partner from negotiating for capitulation and putting an end to things? Who gets the vassal...whoever makes a deal first? I'm not a big fan of that.
It's the first and simplest thing I could come up with, but how about if a civ is at war with multiple majors, only the civ with the highest warscore at a given time can negotiate for capitulation?
I guess I'm thinking of how Civ 4 worked. If civs A and B were at war with C, and A made peace with C (making C their vassal in the process), B was no longer at war with C through no choice of their own. Is this not how it works with C4DF?
I guess I'm thinking of how Civ 4 worked. If civs A and B were at war with C, and A made peace with C (making C their vassal in the process), B was no longer at war with C through no choice of their own. Is this not how it works with C4DF?
So in the stated example, B would have peace with C forced upon them? If so I don't like that. I (or an AI) could be fighting a one-sided war, and a 3rd civ could jump into the mix (or could have been 'fighting' all along without contributing), demand capitulation, and force me out of the war without even getting peace treaty compensation.
Edit: What might bother me even more in that scenario is that the only thing determining whose vassal 'C' becomes is whoever made a deal for capitulation first. That seems kind of silly imo, and I would rather see the civ who carries the biggest stick hold all the cards at the table.
I don't necessary agree with the proposition that vassals can't hate their masters, I mean being forcibly vassaled shouldn't exactly make you like the person.
On the other hand your vassal should probably know its place and not go around publicly denouncing you. Hard topic really.
So in the stated example, B would have peace with C forced upon them? If so I don't like that. I (or an AI) could be fighting a one-sided war, and a 3rd civ could jump into the mix (or could have been 'fighting' all along without contributing), demand capitulation, and force me out of the war without even getting peace treaty compensation.
Edit: What might bother me even more in that scenario is that the only thing determining whose vassal 'C' becomes is whoever made a deal for capitulation first. That seems kind of silly imo, and I would rather see the civ who carries the biggest stick hold all the cards at the table.
But it sounds quite right. A civ loses a war, and seeks protection. And rather than to submit to the one who it loses to, it would rather be protected by a friend (or at least a neutral party).
Too bad for the winner, but well played by the loser.
I don't necessary agree with the proposition that vassals can't hate their masters, I mean being forcibly vassaled shouldn't exactly make you like the person.
On the other hand your vassal should probably know its place and not go around publicly denouncing you. Hard topic really.
Nobody said vassals can't hate their masters. In fact, they should if you piss them off as their master.
However, I agree that keeping old grudges as a vassal when they submit is incorrect behavior, so wiping the slate clean (good or bad) on capitulation sounds about right. They are now under your protection. If you tax them hard, do stuff to piss them off, etc. then they should rightfully hate you.
Nobody said vassals can't hate their masters. In fact, they should if you piss them off as their master.
However, I agree that keeping old grudges as a vassal when they submit is incorrect behavior, so wiping the slate clean (good or bad) on capitulation sounds about right. They are now under your protection. If you tax them hard, do stuff to piss them off, etc. then they should rightfully hate you.
Nobody said vassals can't hate their masters. In fact, they should if you piss them off as their master.
However, I agree that keeping old grudges as a vassal when they submit is incorrect behavior, so wiping the slate clean (good or bad) on capitulation sounds about right. They are now under your protection. If you tax them hard, do stuff to piss them off, etc. then they should rightfully hate you.
But it sounds quite right. A civ loses a war, and seeks protection. And rather than to submit to the one who it loses to, it would rather be protected by a friend (or at least a neutral party).
Too bad for the winner, but well played by the loser.
Yep, if a civ is losing a war and becomes a voluntary vassal of another civ, I see no problem. If another civ declares war or contributes nothing to a war yet is able to force capitulation just because they made a peace deal first, this is a bug. Please report if this happens.
Unrelated:
How can I resize the image in the OP to be smaller? I forgot how to use this forum.
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