Starting Next to The Zulus (Again)

They really are, for me, a game breaker. Just- almost- finished a game against them.

It was just one war after another. Eventually I weakened them so much they ceded a city and another AI finished them off, but at that stage I had lost the game.

I had used so much time building walls, units and repairing pillaged tiles that the other players had far outstripped me in science and policies.

I guess if there was a positive, I never had a problem with spies stealing my technologies. They didn't waste their time.

What difficulty?

Why does it matter?

I've just taken advantage of this myself.

In my current game, I had the Zulu to my west and France to my south-west. After less than 100 turns (on Marathon speed), the Zulu declared war on France. This war lasted over 200 turns, only ending when myself and Assyria to the north of the Zulu capital declared on the Zulu.

I swept through the once-French territory then headed for the Zulu capital, while Assyria charged through new Zulu territory to the capital, where we both bombarded its defences.

The long war had left France so depleted of everything (they had a single improved tile in all of their territory, a single worker, 2 Warriors and a Great General), that I decided to wipe them out with the forces I was returning to garrison my cities. This is only on Prince difficulty.

The Hun are causing shenanigans in the middle of the Pangea aswell.

Now the Aztec; they're the ones I don't like. In my first Prince game I got penned in and annihilated before I even made it the Classical era. They must have gone full military from the start, probably getting a Settler from some ruins. That's my excuse anyway.

Shaka is cheap. Gift him 1gpt and/or 1horse/turn. Pure gift. Then ask him to attack X for a lux(*). Most of times he'll take it. If not, add some extra gold. Works in 99 out of 100 times. That 1 remaining case it means hes too weak. In this case *you* attack him.

First gift, then bribe. At this point Shaka will like you (he likes gifts) and everyone else will hate him.

After this you can keep Shaka as your personnal attack dog or join others and exterminate him.


(*) - this is why I don't trade all my luxuries away. I like to save one for this case, to bribe warmongers to go away.

He's also a very good ally if you plan on winning DomV. Just save him for last. When you bribe and join his wars, he'll eventually offer DoF and stay friends forever.

Convict said:

They really are, for me, a game breaker. Just- almost- finished a game against them.

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Okay, by "almost" it sounds like you quit rather than trying to recover?

...they ceded a city and another AI finished them off

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Did you get some expos up before the war started? Sounds like the war ended with you ahead of where you were when it began. Too bad about an AI getting the Zulu cap. But you were at peace with Zulu when that happened, so now you can recall the Zulu to life even keeping the Zulu cap to yourself after you DoW this AI. You are potentially in a very strong position diplomatically!

I had used so much time building walls, units and repairing pillaged tiles that the other players had far outstripped me in science and policies.

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Were you losing very many units? If not, then you are not really much handicapped by your war. If yes, then you need to work on your battle tactics.

Convict said:

Why does it matter?

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Because it would significantly impact the odds for your game being salvageable or not. I am not really a strong player, but even at Deity I have often gone on to win after unwanted and protracted early wars. And those were all without gaining a city and without the opportunity to recall a civ to life. One game even went so badly that I (temporarily) lost an expo (but that is usually a game-breaking event for me).

Convict said:

Why does it matter?

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If it doesn't matter, why are you making a concerted effort to conceal it?

In a recent published game of mine, Shaka was identified as a neighbor early on. Knowing how dangerous he can be and how close he was, I altered my game to revolve around this feature since the cost of doing so far outweighed the cost of not doing so. As a result, he was eliminated and before I met anybody else to know of my deeds. Which also provided me with a free city and 3 free Workers. In other words, what you describe as a problem, I was able to convert into a blessing.

THAT was the point of asking of difficulty. If you're playing on say Deity, there's either little you can do about this or you already realize what you can do about it. Otherwise, there's probably ways you could improve your gameplay so this doesn't continue to be a problem for you. Starting with understanding the way this fundamentally changes the map you're on. I assumed by creating a thread, you were soliciting feedback from others.

Actually difficulty matters a lot as AI prince difficulty or below is much less likely to declear wars than AI above those difficulty, with deity and immortal the highest.

Ive been with zulu next to me. I had started a maya honor on deity and actually took Berlín, i couldnt believe it. However, shaka made a Dow on me after i had made a Dow on Alexander to seek my next capital. I have been wondering what to do next. I didnt continue. Maybe i couldve to see or give the other social policy starts a chance such as piety, liberty or tradition even.

I had a game recently as the Celts and had the Zulus next door to me and America to the North of the Zulus. As soon as I saw him I got defensive, chose the pantheon for gaining faith for winning battles and built a number of strategic units to defend my territory. After losing waves of Impi's to my CB he decided to try and flank me and take a weaker city which meant I had to expend a GG in betweeen my Cities just to take HPs out of him and slow his advance. For the next couple of hundred years I was at constant war with him and each time his units were depleated, he asked for peace. THEN, when his pants were down, America swept in and wiped him out and that made them a huge threat as they were now the new warmonger - they took my nearest CS neighbours and were ahead of me in tech (I had to focus on unit building and suffered on Science). I ended up losing to America because once they got bombers I couldn't defend myself - I was well off getting flight or ballistics.

I agree that the Zulus can be a problem if you don't strike first - they sap your resources and make you change your strategy. The thing that annoyed me though was that America was closer to them and they never DoW them ONCE in hundreds of years. Then when I had worn them down, America marches in and takes the spoils of war from me!! So basically, Zulus were kinda responsible for me being overwhelmed by an America which had three times the amount of cities as me and seemed to be favouring aggressive expansion.

I admit, I should have taken action sooner but I thought if I just fought a defensive war I could hold them off (which I did) - I didn't anticipate another AI wiping them out so swiftly

Bribing Zulu is always cheap, so you should've bribed them against America and they wouldn't even DoW you until they make peace with America. Wait until their army is away then you can strike. Alternatively you can ask them to join your war with America, but not send any units, then backstab them afterwards.

Sclb said:

Bribing Zulu is always cheap, so you should've bribed them against America and they wouldn't even DoW you until they make peace with America. Wait until their army is away then you can strike. Alternatively you can ask them to join your war with America, but not send any units, then backstab them afterwards.

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To be honest, I never even considered the bribing thing - they declared war on me so early that they hated me forever afterwards and I don't think they would have even accepted a bribe from me lol! But I didn't see America as an immediate threat as they were fairly far away. Good tip though, next time I am next to Shaka I will consider this course of action!!

Just to give an example, in my current game of continents, there are 4 warmonger civs on my continent: Japan to the east, Ottomans to the SE, and Carthage to the east of Ottomans. Obviously if I don't do anything, either one of my neighbor will declare on me guaranteed. So to set this up, I gift one of my luxury to Japan, so that they would like me and be friends, then I join their request to war with Carthage. There is no need to send any troops, as they were far enough away. Also, send the first caravan to Japan. Now that 2 things happens, Japan likes me now and will offer DoF because we fought in the same war. While doing this, I forward settle Ottomans to prepare for the eventual attack. Later, I also bribed Ottomans against Carthage. After Japan makes peace, we also make peace with Carthage, then bribe him against Ottomans and we both attack Ottomans. Ottoman falls, but no warmonger penalties because they fought against all other known civs on the continent and were hated. Next, attack Carthage, and later Japan, when the DoF expires. We could've gone for Japan 2nd, but Carthage has high tendency to backstab and it is not efficient movement of troops.

All of the civs involved here behaves similar to warmonger civs such as Zulu, but are often less loyal. In fact these are one of the most likely civs to backstab.

I tried that in a game yesterday; I started next to the Zulu and since they sent out an unescorted settler right when my scout was passing by, they didn't exactly like me either (extra workers are always useful). So I bribed them to attack Brazil. Two birds with one stone, really; since I was planning on a CV it helped to keep the competition down.
I had to make them declare war a second time on Brazil later because they were just incompetent the first time around. But when they finally conquered Rio, I had a DoF with Napoleon and immediately bribed him to declare on Shaka. Worked nicely, because I was sandwiched between the two and Napoleon neede Open Borders to reach Shaka, which went well with my CV aim.
I almost got caught with my pants down, though, when the two made peace and then made a joint declaration of war against me the very next turn. I didn't expect their relations to be good enough after the war to do that. But luckily, I was just a few turns away from Rifling and thus the hordes of Impis were no problem, while Napoleon had to work his way through my city state allies to reach me.

Entilzha said:

I tried that in a game yesterday; I started next to the Zulu and since they sent out an unescorted settler right when my scout was passing by, they didn't exactly like me either (extra workers are always useful). So I bribed them to attack Brazil.

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Was it their first Settler? In my Spanish Mesa Gibraltar series, I saw Shaka was my neighbor. So I took my Warrior over there, as well as a Scout (since knowing I might fight Shaka, I didn't want to meet too many people). I was able to grab his first Settler and contain him long enough to just take him out.

Here's the initial play: https://youtu.be/Rgk2rDDrG24?list=PLq46mc4m-emD1CzO-k0mpZqcsC5Wp-U8t

And here's the refined attempt to test how fast a win I could achieve on that map (t120 CV): https://youtu.be/wuu6t7OUDIE?list=PLq46mc4m-emD1CzO-k0mpZqcsC5Wp-U8t

Dushku said:

Was it their first Settler? In my Spanish Mesa Gibraltar series, I saw Shaka was my neighbor. So I took my Warrior over there, as well as a Scout (since knowing I might fight Shaka, I didn't want to meet too many people). I was able to grab his first Settler and contain him long enough to just take him out.

Here's the initial play: https://youtu.be/Rgk2rDDrG24?list=PLq46mc4m-emD1CzO-k0mpZqcsC5Wp-U8t

And here's the refined attempt to test how fast a win I could achieve on that map (t120 CV): https://youtu.be/wuu6t7OUDIE?list=PLq46mc4m-emD1CzO-k0mpZqcsC5Wp-U8t

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Yes, it was his first settler.

Entilzha said:

Yes, it was his first settler.

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stealing the AI first settler is a great way to cripple them early with little consequence if you can get away with it.

Be careful taking Shaka or other warmonger's settlers, as some of them will not make peace until very much later on higher difficulties and will continue to send carpets making it difficult to develop infrastructure. Either you have to make enough troops to conquer them, and suffer diplo penalties or divert enough resource to slow down your own growth.

Sclb said:

Just to give an example, in my current game of continents, there are 4 warmonger civs on my continent: Japan to the east, Ottomans to the SE, and Carthage to the east of Ottomans. .

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I've never really considered Carthage to be a warmonger! Nowhere near to the same extent as Japan, Zulu, etc....