I raised some queries too. I admit there is a logic to it but the "Pretribemaint" bonus is just too extreme and Chiefdom has only very slight advanatges compared to Anarchism
C2C - Civics Discussion Thread
- Thread starter EldrinFal
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I raised some queries too. I admit there is a logic to it but the "Pretribemaint" bonus is just too extreme and Chiefdom has only very slight advanatges compared to Anarchism
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I wanted to look into his adjustment methods deeper, not implement them unconditionally right away. I thought he might've had a few good points. And I think most of us agree he did.
But I also think there were a few areas where he approached some things in less suitable ways than could've been achieved through other means.
If someone else would like to try some things that may work I'm sure we're listening... and right now we have the time before release to give it a good testing still. I'd advise to try to tackle just the 'problems' with the current structure.
But I also think there were a few areas where he approached some things in less suitable ways than could've been achieved through other means.
If someone else would like to try some things that may work I'm sure we're listening... and right now we have the time before release to give it a good testing still. I'd advise to try to tackle just the 'problems' with the current structure.
That building got such a high bonus because otherwise you would start the game with negative
/turn. This shows that BlueGenie simply went to far with his changes.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
That building got such a high bonus because otherwise you would start the game with negative
Would removing the Pretribemaint correct this situation? Or is it deeper rooted?
JosEPh
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
That building got such a high bonus because otherwise you would start the game with negative
Would it be better than just to delete that building that causes this then?
That building got such a high bonus because otherwise you would start the game with negative
buit was that not because he gave a 1
cost to every unit? That cost has been removed but the pretribemaint hasn't.Is it like we (you guys!) have healed the wound but are still giving the medicine?
buit was that not because he gave a 1
Is it like we (you guys!) have healed the wound but are still giving the medicine?
The 1
cost per unit only made you start with even more negative /turn. But not always it was different depending traits.That would mean you start the game with negative
per turn so the maintenance costs must also be reduced.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Would commenting out the XML PreTribemaint Bldg be a simple test of this? Or would that cause a CTD?
JosEPh
JosEPh
Yudishtira
Spiritual/Creative
(copied from Dynamic Names bug thread)
I've been looking at the RevUtils, and they've pointed me towards the XML tags relating to Rev. Many of which don't seem quite right somehow...
bFreeSpeech: All civics currently have this set to 0 (false presumably). It's probably true that no one civic guarantees freedom of speech, but given what we've got to work with, I suggest Democracy (Gov't) and Separation of Powers (Power) - at the very least - should have this set to true (what about Magistrates?).
bNoRealElections: DynamicCivNames is expecting civs to be able to have both 'CanDoElections' and 'NoRealElections'. I suggest that NoRealElections should include all Power civics except Legislature and Separation of Powers.
bCommunism: currently is only on the KEYNESIAN economic civic. What's with that? I suggest instead of querying this value, DynamicNames should say if Labour Freedom > 0 and Democracy Level < 0, that civ is communist. Of course this is a huge oversimplification at best (and just plain wrong at worst) but I think it probably works and that's the main thing.(not relevant here...)
LabourFreedom: values are currently all over the place. I suggest the following changes:
Socialism: +3 (is -1)
Centralized: -1 (is +2)
Serfdom: -3 (is +2)
Nationalist: +1 (down from +8)
Liberal: +2 (currently +10)
Proletariat: +2 (is -5)
Bourgeois: -2 (currently +3)
Organized Labour: +2 (currently 0)
I've been looking at the RevUtils, and they've pointed me towards the XML tags relating to Rev. Many of which don't seem quite right somehow...
bFreeSpeech: All civics currently have this set to 0 (false presumably). It's probably true that no one civic guarantees freedom of speech, but given what we've got to work with, I suggest Democracy (Gov't) and Separation of Powers (Power) - at the very least - should have this set to true (what about Magistrates?).
bNoRealElections: DynamicCivNames is expecting civs to be able to have both 'CanDoElections' and 'NoRealElections'. I suggest that NoRealElections should include all Power civics except Legislature and Separation of Powers.
LabourFreedom: values are currently all over the place. I suggest the following changes:
Socialism: +3 (is -1)
Centralized: -1 (is +2)
Serfdom: -3 (is +2)
Nationalist: +1 (down from +8)
Liberal: +2 (currently +10)
Proletariat: +2 (is -5)
Bourgeois: -2 (currently +3)
Organized Labour: +2 (currently 0)
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
There is one aspect of the buildings I don't like at the moment - burial practices. Currently you can choose Sky Burial with Zoroastrism or you can have the lot. I tend to go for the Zoro option because it removes a lot of buildings from the potential build list.
In general historically peoples tended to have the same burial practices across a nation. These changed over time as the rich tried out something new and it filtered down to the poor or a change in religion or philosophy dictated.
I am suggesting that we could add a bit of depth by adding Burial Practice as something that you choose and that it limits what you can build. I have thought on how to implement it and I think the Civic method is the best even though the burial practices are not intended to be better than each other. There would be no anarchy period for changing burial practices.
The burial practices can be split along the four element line of earth, fire, air/sky and water. There can even be some cross over.
Earth can be further split
Sky - I can only think of two here, the Zoroastrism Tower of Silence and the North American Native practice with a platform of wood.
Fire most crossover with others as cremated remains may be buried, scattered on the wind or waves for example. Allows the Funeral Pyre set of buildings.
Water eg boat burial on a river or at sea. Often used with fire.
The South American practice of mummification in cliff caves probably fits into the Sky category.
To these basics are added variations for "grave goods" and mummification.
Such a choice should be made at the nation level not the city level with the old methods going out of use when the new is introduced.
In general historically peoples tended to have the same burial practices across a nation. These changed over time as the rich tried out something new and it filtered down to the poor or a change in religion or philosophy dictated.
I am suggesting that we could add a bit of depth by adding Burial Practice as something that you choose and that it limits what you can build. I have thought on how to implement it and I think the Civic method is the best even though the burial practices are not intended to be better than each other. There would be no anarchy period for changing burial practices.
The burial practices can be split along the four element line of earth, fire, air/sky and water. There can even be some cross over.
Earth can be further split
- Sacred Cave - bodies are placed in a cave. Later the bones are separated into types that are stored elsewhere in the cave.
- Graves or Crypts
- Necropolis or Catacombs
Sky - I can only think of two here, the Zoroastrism Tower of Silence and the North American Native practice with a platform of wood.
Fire most crossover with others as cremated remains may be buried, scattered on the wind or waves for example. Allows the Funeral Pyre set of buildings.
Water eg boat burial on a river or at sea. Often used with fire.
The South American practice of mummification in cliff caves probably fits into the Sky category.
To these basics are added variations for "grave goods" and mummification.
Such a choice should be made at the nation level not the city level with the old methods going out of use when the new is introduced.
Sparth
C2C Team Member
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2013
- Messages
- 2,314
Check this Tibetan burial practice:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sky_burial
Beware for drastic pictures
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Sounds like another interesting development there DH!
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Where would say cryogenics fit in? Or soylent green type practices?
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
The Gold/turn hit of moving from Chiefdom to either Despotism Or Monarchy is too much. It stunts the AI's growth more than it does the player who can cope. The AI can not cope with this massive change. This is why it is very easy for the player to have twice the number of cities the AI will have when these Civic options come up.
Please remove this Pretribement "condition" and Restore the previous Maint system that was in effect before this AI crippling change was made. Or make serious adjustment to the Costs of moving on to the other Gov't Civics (Despotism and beyond).
If you would do this you would see the AI Back at a competitive expansion level and a more robust Civ to contend with. These Pre v35 changes have caused nothing but balance issues that did not need adjusting prior to v35. As a decent balance had been achieved.
JosEPh
Please remove this Pretribement "condition" and Restore the previous Maint system that was in effect before this AI crippling change was made. Or make serious adjustment to the Costs of moving on to the other Gov't Civics (Despotism and beyond).
If you would do this you would see the AI Back at a competitive expansion level and a more robust Civ to contend with. These Pre v35 changes have caused nothing but balance issues that did not need adjusting prior to v35. As a decent balance had been achieved.
JosEPh
Hear hear
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
I am not seeing this. Changing from Chiefdom to Despotism always gives more money in my experience.
I do play with city limits on and usually stop at 12 cities while I wait for Despotism.
I agree that the Civics need checking and adjusting and that the steep change from Chiefdom to Monarchy and later Govt Civics.
Despotism though should possibly be just as expensive as it is, but with greater military bonuses.
Because, simply enough, I do not understand why Chiefdom should go through Despotism before reaching Monarchy.
When one changes too matters. A player can gather up and change a few Civics that all in all help the economy even if the Govt civic alone is more costly, an AI might not look for those before switching Govts.
This, about needing to adjust Civics due to changes in the MaxNumCity, I have brought up before but I have not had the time to come with proper suggestions, and no one else has offered to look them over and come with suggestions. Maybe Mac and Joe can do that?
Cheers
Despotism though should possibly be just as expensive as it is, but with greater military bonuses.
Because, simply enough, I do not understand why Chiefdom should go through Despotism before reaching Monarchy.
When one changes too matters. A player can gather up and change a few Civics that all in all help the economy even if the Govt civic alone is more costly, an AI might not look for those before switching Govts.
This, about needing to adjust Civics due to changes in the MaxNumCity, I have brought up before but I have not had the time to come with proper suggestions, and no one else has offered to look them over and come with suggestions. Maybe Mac and Joe can do that?
Cheers
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
The second civic I would like to add is about religion
These are about the funerary practices of the nation. Cryogenics probably does not fit in at all since it is about extending life not about end of life. In the Soylent Green movie you said goodbye to the relative before they died so the funerary practice is that I suppose. My main aim was at the early period.
I am currently stuck on the grave goods issue with this.
- Animism
- Pantheism - divine is everywhere and everything is divine
- Polytheism - many divine entities
- Mystery cults - secrets of the divine are revealed as you progress up the hierarchy.
- Monotheism - one divine entity
- Non-theism - we can't directly communicate with the divine so it is about how we treat others and the world that is important. Our actions are how the divine judge us.
- Atheism
These are about the funerary practices of the nation. Cryogenics probably does not fit in at all since it is about extending life not about end of life. In the Soylent Green movie you said goodbye to the relative before they died so the funerary practice is that I suppose. My main aim was at the early period.
I am currently stuck on the grave goods issue with this.
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