C2C - Civics Discussion Thread
- Thread starter EldrinFal
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I agree that this is over the top, but having looked at the detail I can't put my finger on any single element that seems wrong. Its just that taken holistically it gets a bit crazy.
To address this I'd like to propose a new concept (which would be very easy to implement). This is food waste (which happens a lot in modern society, so it's not even an artificial concept). I suggest that it would work something like this:
At subsistence levels (no spare food or less) there is no wastage.
As you add extra spare food, a proportion of it goes to 'waste'.
Waste increases as you get more excess - the first point of excess food you get in full. The next point you only get 90% of, the next only 90% of what you got for the previous point (so 90% of 90% = 81%) and so on. The result is that adding more always makes SOME extra contribution but it diminishes the more excess you have. After the first 6 excess each extra food is only adding about half, after 12 only about a quarter...
Net result is very little effect when you are only marginally growing, but severe curtailing of really outrageous excesses like those pictured here.
Opinions...?
EldrinFal
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I don't disagree with that method as a stop gap, but first I think the correct response would be to scale back what caused the problem.
@ThoricFrame what are your Civics settings?
I would probably agree if I could put my finger on what caused the problem, but if you look at the screenshots you'll see it's an aggregate of lots and lots of smaller factors that just get out of control in aggregate. The beauty of the wastage mechanism is that it preserves the ability to design civics and buildings and so on without having to keep in mind detailed knowledge of every other food providing civic and building in existence and the worst case effect of combine them all. If you adjust the individual factors down enough t address the aggregate without such a mechanism you'll have a hard time not crippling earlier game development (unless you see something in the screen shots that is obviously wrong which I missed)
EldrinFal
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Well I was looking at his trade, which was gaining him +10 food for each route listed. And in the first pic it shows that total to be +119, which nearly equals the food he makes from working tiles in the area.
Then he gets a whopping 80% boost from Resources alone! Along with the Capital and Building boost, that puts him over 100%, doubling his food to the 700+ mark.
Is a % boost from local resources a C2C feature? Or something from a building?
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
How in the HECK are you'll getting games like this, i NEVER get a GP Doctor let alone more than three GP's at a time? Infact i have never even gotten over 300
are you playing with Rev On by any chance?
Trade (whether s gold or food, which depends on civics) is proportional to population, so at 140 pop this isn't really wrong (or else it would near useless at more normal populations)
The 80% from bonuses is. Total of loads and loads of small mods (such as butchery etc.) I think.
What specific factor would you change?
EldrinFal
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Did you make the food bonus for resources multiplicative? 80% seems a bit much. (And I just noticed that city isn't even working the full 3 tile radius in all directions.. wow)
His city is also unhealthy by 30
and that should be causing more problems than it probably is. I would suspect a higher mortality rate with living conditions like that. Maybe once the count goes above a certain number or % it would consume 2 or even 3 food each.Your food waste is a good idea too, I was just saying that the other factors leading up to it should be addressed too.
Another option would be that in a "decadent" city where everyone is happy and food is plenty, maybe people start consuming more. Instead of 3 food, maybe they consume 4? Or a % of them consumes more.
Did you make the food bonus for resources multiplicative? 80% seems a bit much. (And I just noticed that city isn't even working the full 3 tile radius in all directions.. wow)
His city is also unhealthy by 30
Your food waste is a good idea too, I was just saying that the other factors leading up to it should be addressed too.
Another option would be that in a "decadent" city where everyone is happy and food is plenty, maybe people start consuming more. Instead of 3 food, maybe they consume 4? Or a % of them consumes more.
Food (supply side) mods are still additive, so it's not that.
EldrinFal
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Then it may be worthwhile to consider changing +% boosting systems to straight +
So as the city grows, the output doesn't increase and it's a diminishing return.ThoricFrame
Chieftain
There we are, no unhealthy... for a turn.
But yeah it's a combination of many things! Unlimited wonders so I have crazy bonuses to trade routes, although I think I was getting +660% from population?
Rev is OFF, it slows the game down and the AI doesn't seem to handle it well...
It is getting 25% from a religion national wonder, kemetism? I don't remember how to spell it, I think that bonus comes from having wheat so it is bundled under resources. I think the rest of the food mainly comes from corporations, I have both mobby's meats and cereal mills in that city which both have buildings that provide food multipliers.
As for the great doctors I got them for getting medical techs first, that's the only way I've got them.
I can post the save for you tomorrow if you're interested? I can't convert it to maximum compatibility right now.
But yeah it's a combination of many things! Unlimited wonders so I have crazy bonuses to trade routes, although I think I was getting +660% from population?
Rev is OFF, it slows the game down and the AI doesn't seem to handle it well...
It is getting 25% from a religion national wonder, kemetism? I don't remember how to spell it, I think that bonus comes from having wheat so it is bundled under resources. I think the rest of the food mainly comes from corporations, I have both mobby's meats and cereal mills in that city which both have buildings that provide food multipliers.
As for the great doctors I got them for getting medical techs first, that's the only way I've got them.
I can post the save for you tomorrow if you're interested? I can't convert it to maximum compatibility right now.
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EldrinFal
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Wow, now your food from trade SURPASSES your food from tiles worked!
Yeah, post the Max Compat save. It will be good to see the breakdown to figure out what all needs to be addressed.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Should say Communism not Utopia. The tag for Communism is Utopia but the name is called Communism.
EldrinFal
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Ok, thanks. As you probably figured, I was using the xml file to generate that section.
So, ok to go ahead and add a simple wastage system as a back-stop against these excesses, or would people prefer to try to fiddle with the individual components?
ThoricFrame
Chieftain
Hokely dokely! Save included. Looking through what's there for all the multipliers.
Capital +20% from feudalism
Building bonus: Victuallers guild hall: +25%
Resources bonus (80%)
Cereal mills: +6% each for corn, wheat, rice (no potatoes). +18%
Mobby meats: +4% each for cow, pig, deer (no whale or sheep). +12%
Druidism: Nature altar wheat and corn, +5% each. +10%
Shamanism: Shaman temple cow, pig +5% each. +10%
Kemetism: Temple of Osiris, +25% with wheat
Ngai Narok Bless: +5% from pig
Building Ngai Narok Bless requires your state religion to be Ngaiism, which it was at one point. I guess it isn't disabled on switching because I'm still getting a bonus, but I'm not able to build the cow version.
I placed the cow and wheat bonuses using great farmers, and am in the process of planting a rice which will give me another +5% food in that city from druidism.
IMO the bonuses from the religions should probably be flat, because they aren't that useful as 5% when your city is a reasonable size, but when you get corporations that percentage stacks up quickly!
Capital +20% from feudalism
Building bonus: Victuallers guild hall: +25%
Resources bonus (80%)
Cereal mills: +6% each for corn, wheat, rice (no potatoes). +18%
Mobby meats: +4% each for cow, pig, deer (no whale or sheep). +12%
Druidism: Nature altar wheat and corn, +5% each. +10%
Shamanism: Shaman temple cow, pig +5% each. +10%
Kemetism: Temple of Osiris, +25% with wheat
Ngai Narok Bless: +5% from pig
Building Ngai Narok Bless requires your state religion to be Ngaiism, which it was at one point. I guess it isn't disabled on switching because I'm still getting a bonus, but I'm not able to build the cow version.
I placed the cow and wheat bonuses using great farmers, and am in the process of planting a rice which will give me another +5% food in that city from druidism.
IMO the bonuses from the religions should probably be flat, because they aren't that useful as 5% when your city is a reasonable size, but when you get corporations that percentage stacks up quickly!
EldrinFal
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Thanks for posting that breakdown. It really clarifies things. What other Civics are you using? Any that effect food?
I wonder if it might be better for those buildings to provide their % bonus for only a single resource in the vicinity? So instead of Cereal Mills giving the 18%, it would only be 6%. Or a set number as you mentioned. The %s DO add up though when you get so many like this.
ThoricFrame
Chieftain
The corporation ones aren't vicinity bonuses at all. IIRC nothing else effects food, except for small bonuses to farms and extra trade routes (more food from the agriculture food from trade routes)
EldrinFal
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Ah yeah, I picked the wrong one to use as an example. The corp bonuses are civ wide IIRC and additional resources of the same time also add up, don't they? However, I think that is a stock BTS feature. I've seen +40 food from the early C2C guilds in my games, which is an awful lot when also combined with the other % increases. That and the trade food bonus.
Capitals obviously have the potential to be the strongest city in your empire, but a pop of 141 by the time period you're in is obviously overboard. I still think those bonuses should be scaled back a bit and then Koshling's Food Waste or some other measure to slow growth beyond a certain point implemented on top of that.
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