C2C Combat Mod Introduction - Step I (SubCombat Classes)

@Thunderbrd

1. In your document you should list the Boomerang Thrower too.

2. The Hatchet Warrior is part of the Post-Apocalyptic units. It was suppose to be equivalent to an Axeman. However I suppose it could be a throwing weapon as well.

Hatchet Warrior = Post-Apocalyptic Axeman
Wrench Warrior = Post-Apocalyptic = Maceman
Machette Warrior = Post-Apocalyptic Swordsman
Crowbar Guard = Post-Apocalyptic Town Watchman
Urban Crossbowman = Post-Apocalyptic Crossbowman
Urban Horseman = Post-Apocalyptic Horseman

If you don't like the changes, we can either revert to the old ones or we can find some solutions to what it is that you specifically don't like, fair 'nuff?
Click to expand...

I totally agree. That's how things have gone with C2C. We try new things, test and if they don't work we can fix it again.
 
Hydromancerx said:
1. In your document you should list the Boomerang Thrower too.
Click to expand...
Ah... I was getting that sinking feeling I'd missed one. Good point. I'll have to work those out as well then.

2. The Hatchet Warrior is part of the Post-Apocalyptic units. It was suppose to be equivalent to an Axeman. However I suppose it could be a throwing weapon as well.

Hatchet Warrior = Post-Apocalyptic Axeman
Wrench Warrior = Post-Apocalyptic = Maceman
Machette Warrior = Post-Apocalyptic Swordsman
Crowbar Guard = Post-Apocalyptic Town Watchman
Urban Crossbowman = Post-Apocalyptic Crossbowman
Urban Horseman = Post-Apocalyptic Horseman
Click to expand...
Actually, I'd be happy to change it back to a Melee and revert it to its original stats. But this does then beg a new throwing unit for the Post-Apocalyptic stuff and I'd suggest a Molotov Cocktail Lobber for that. Would fit better with its -between Arsonist and Grenadier- power profile. Do we have access to such a unit art anywhere?

For now, I'm happy to revert that Hatchetman then. I noticed his art looks more like a melee as well.

I totally agree. That's how things have gone with C2C. We try new things, test and if they don't work we can fix it again.
Click to expand...
I just don't want to step on the anyone's toes is all. I worry as it is that units in module files need to be tweaked to bring them into harmony with the rest of the layout. That said, if I have your trust enough to try some things (with backups ready) then it could certainly make the design process much easier. I'll still TRY to document new statistics like these as I go though... it can be helpful to more easily see things from a big-picture comparison level anyhow.
 
Thunderbrd said:
I just don't want to step on the anyone's toes is all. I worry as it is that units in module files need to be tweaked to bring them into harmony with the rest of the layout. That said, if I have your trust enough to try some things (with backups ready) then it could certainly make the design process much easier. I'll still TRY to document new statistics like these as I go though... it can be helpful to more easily see things from a big-picture comparison level anyhow.
Click to expand...

If anything in the modules etc that "I" do you'll and that goes for "Everyone" can change them to your hearts content, as long as its a better implementation!:p;)
 
Boomerang Thrower
(Primary AI: UNITAI_CITY_DEFENSE )
(UnitAIs: Attack, City Defense)
(Prereq Tech: TECH_SIMPLE_WOOD_WORKING )
(Prereq Bonus: BONUS_ABORIGINE )
(Cost: 20)
(Moves: 2)
(Combat: 2)
(iFirstStrikes: 1)
(iChanceFirstStrikes: 1)
(iWithdrawProb: 20)
(iEarlyWithdraw: 70)
(iCollateralDamage: 2)
(iCollateralDamageLimit: 5)
(iCollateralDamageMaxUnits: 2)
(City Attack: 0)
(iCityDefense: 20)
(iHillsDefense: 20)
(CombatClassMods: Archer: 25, Animal: 100)
(iConscription: 4)
(iCultureGarrison: 1)
(iAsset: 1)
(iPower: 3)
(Free Warmth I)
I gave them perhaps the greatest power enhancement over their contemporary template (the Slinger) that any of the Throwing CC culture units have received. But then again... my wife IS Australian, as are so many who play and mod C2C, and although there could be some irony in it, I figured this could honor the Aussies among us somewhat ;)

Besides, the Boomerang is such a unique and advanced weapon for its tech level, a truly extraordinary marvel of low tech design. It deserves a place of honor in and of itself. I was even tempted to make the unit an invisible one... perhaps more of a parallel to the Ambusher. For now, this workup does do it serious justice.
 
Thunderbrd said:
Actually, I'd be happy to change it back to a Melee and revert it to its original stats. But this does then beg a new throwing unit for the Post-Apocalyptic stuff and I'd suggest a Molotov Cocktail Lobber for that. Would fit better with its -between Arsonist and Grenadier- power profile. Do we have access to such a unit art anywhere?
Click to expand...

If there is I have not found it. However I think that is an excellent idea for a Post-Apocalyptic unit.

Thunderbrd said:
Boomerang Thrower

I gave them perhaps the greatest power enhancement over their contemporary template (the Slinger) that any of the Throwing CC culture units have received. But then again... my wife IS Australian, as are so many who play and mod C2C, and although there could be some irony in it, I figured this could honor the Aussies among us somewhat ;)

Besides, the Boomerang is such a unique and advanced weapon for its tech level, a truly extraordinary marvel of low tech design. It deserves a place of honor in and of itself. I was even tempted to make the unit an invisible one... perhaps more of a parallel to the Ambusher. For now, this workup does do it serious justice.
Click to expand...

Perhaps in the future when equipment is implemented we cvan better represent the power of the Boomerang. I agree it is one of the more powerful weapons for its level of technology. One could even say on par with the atlatl when used by someone who knows how to use one.

Thunderbrd said:
I just don't want to step on the anyone's toes is all. I worry as it is that units in module files need to be tweaked to bring them into harmony with the rest of the layout. That said, if I have your trust enough to try some things (with backups ready) then it could certainly make the design process much easier. I'll still TRY to document new statistics like these as I go though... it can be helpful to more easily see things from a big-picture comparison level anyhow.
Click to expand...

Yeah, its not my toes you have to worry about. In general you and I are on the same wave-link when it comes to modding C2C. However I think both of us are not afraid to tell the other if an idea seems wrong or off or just has a better solution to a project. Not to get all mushy but I am very happy to have you on the C2C team. Your creativity both inspires and excites me to keep modding for C2C. So thank you. :hatsoff:
 
@Thunderbrd

So how soon will you add a separate combat class for Horses, Elephants and Camels? I could see this extremely useful if the Riding School only gave the speed bonus to say Horses (and possibly camels). I was also thinking of making a special Elephant school that would give some other promotion instead of Speed. Having it give to only elephant units would be great.
 
Hydromancerx said:
@Thunderbrd

So how soon will you add a separate combat class for Horses, Elephants and Camels? I could see this extremely useful if the Riding School only gave the speed bonus to say Horses (and possibly camels). I was also thinking of making a special Elephant school that would give some other promotion instead of Speed. Having it give to only elephant units would be great.
Click to expand...

Does Horses include donkey and zebra? Does Elephants include Mammoths?
 
The main problem with the proposed system is that it requires biology tech to make sense! This is OK for late buildings but not for early. As I have mentioned elsewhere the Tapir was considered both a pig and an elephant in early literature. None of the classifications so far help with the :food: and :hammers: from kill and butchering. I have been giving small animals 1:hammers: if they have anything useful - poison, bones that make good needles, feathers etc, and :food: if they are edible.
 
Hydromancerx said:
@Thunderbrd

So how soon will you add a separate combat class for Horses, Elephants and Camels? I could see this extremely useful if the Riding School only gave the speed bonus to say Horses (and possibly camels). I was also thinking of making a special Elephant school that would give some other promotion instead of Speed. Having it give to only elephant units would be great.
Click to expand...
Looks like I may be working with WilliamofOrange to get all these in as soon as we can. I just need us to make sure all the ccs there are as we want them to be. Weapons and Armor can probably hold off for a moment, though Armor and Shields seems sorted nicely. Weapons probably needs more thought as to how to best go about this primary/secondary weapon issue. Of course, the specific equipment issues still have a little work to do before we want to go forward with full devel on that.

Dancing Hoskuld said:
The main problem with the proposed system is that it requires biology tech to make sense! This is OK for late buildings but not for early. As I have mentioned elsewhere the Tapir was considered both a pig and an elephant in early literature. None of the classifications so far help with the :food: and :hammers: from kill and butchering. I have been giving small animals 1:hammers: if they have anything useful - poison, bones that make good needles, feathers etc, and :food: if they are edible.
Click to expand...
It still makes sense from kill and butchering and so on perspectives. We'll have size CCs too and they could stand as your modifiers to bases derived from more specific CCs. I realize what you're saying about the Tapir so in that kind of case, the animal buildings would be tough to assign via CC alone unless you wanted to create Myth CCs which I'd advise against as I'm soon to be putting in a Generic Categorization mechanism that can be used for units where CC is not an appropriate way to group units in a category (this would be a good example.)

But for the yield derivation and using CCs to build formulas for that? I think it'd work quite well once the units have been assigned all appropriate CCs.
 
Dancing Hoskuld said:
The main problem with the proposed system is that it requires biology tech to make sense! This is OK for late buildings but not for early. As I have mentioned elsewhere the Tapir was considered both a pig and an elephant in early literature. None of the classifications so far help with the :food: and :hammers: from kill and butchering. I have been giving small animals 1:hammers: if they have anything useful - poison, bones that make good needles, feathers etc, and :food: if they are edible.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily horses act differently than say deer or camels. That would be something a skilled hunter would notice and if they were domesticating the species they would get very familiar with the behavior of the creature.

For instance with Hannibal's War Elephants vs Roman Horses ...

Hannibal led his tens of thousands of troops representing parts of Carthage's allies and about 40 war elephants across the Alps. The Romans were even more surprised when they witnessed the arrival of his elephants. Hannibal quickly won several battles including the Battle at the River Trebia where Hannibal effectively used his elephants to derail the Roman legions. However, the Romans soon caught on. They discovered that by cutting their own horses' throats, Hannibal's elephants would sense the blood, turn around, and charge into Hannibal's army. Therefore, war elephants was very bold soldiers, but they were a huge risk. By the time Hannibal victory against the eight Roman legions in the infamous Battle at Cannae, nearly all his expensive and vital war elephants had died.
Click to expand...

One other interesting factor is unless you have a huge Clydesdale horse, Camels are a bit larger than horses. And can be a bit more intimidating in full war gear. Likewise an Elephant is bigger than both. Imagine what a war mammoth would look like in battle. :eek:
 
Sure. Not modding much today as I've got a guest coming over but I'll add that to my list right up top so tomorrow or later tonight I'll address it.

Do you have any issue with making Chariots and War Wagons Riding AND Wheeled (currently only riding)?
 
Thunderbrd said:
Do you have any issue with making Chariots and War Wagons Riding AND Wheeled (currently only riding)?
Click to expand...

That's actually a good idea. :goodjob:

You may want to double check any promotions wheeled units specifically get and make sure they require a modern tech (ex. Motorized Transportation) if they were made to be a modern promotion.
 
Hydromancerx said:
That's actually a good idea. :goodjob:

You may want to double check any promotions wheeled units specifically get and make sure they require a modern tech (ex. Motorized Transportation) if they were made to be a modern promotion.
Click to expand...

I think we're safe there but I'll do a quick review check to make sure. There's not much that being a wheeled unlocks yet I think as its a newer (relatively) CC that came into play in AND and I don't think got much in the way of unique promos made for it (though there are a number of promos that combat them.)

On that note, I've got some plans for promos for them.
 
@TB

1. Cool. Yeah that would be cool to have new promotions both for Modern Wheeled units but early Wheeled units like Chariots and War Wagons.

2. When you bring up a unit do the promotions listed at the side mean anything anymore? Because I bring up a unit like a Humvee and it lists random promotions like all the Canine ones, Bamboo Armor, Medic Promotions and even Red Field Commander promotions. All of which I know should not be possible for the unit to get. And from my experience units don't get, yet they are still listed on the civpedia page for the unit.
 
I think that part of the pedia's been broken for some time but it's really in DH's court to resolve it and I believe he is aware of the issue. A proper fix would also involve access rules via promotionlines being taken into full consideration as well.

But yes, at the moment it's broken and shows access to all promos unfiltered on all units in the pedia.
 
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