RBtS1b - The Thief Economy

^^ That sounds like a good analysis ^^

I won't get a chance to look at the save until late tonight, but I'm all for that plan.

Swiss Pauli said:

I don't favour attacking Darius: he already has Monarchy which means he's the tech leader and (probably) on the way to Feudalism and Longbows. He also has Jumbos which, if paired with an Axe, can give us headaches.

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Darius has ivory, and is likely 2 techs from jumbos--they need HBR in BTS.
His lands are way better, and my thinking would be to rush him before he gets too strong. Ivory is huge for us. It is clear Darius is the stronger AI and will be better to steal from--I guess it just comes down to is it better to get a little more tech or whack the main threat. I vote for taking out the main threat.

ungy said:

Darius has ivory, and is likely 2 techs from jumbos--they need HBR in BTS.
His lands are way better, and my thinking would be to rush him before he gets too strong. Ivory is huge for us. It is clear Darius is the stronger AI and will be better to steal from--I guess it just comes down to is it better to get a little more tech or whack the main threat. I vote for taking out the main threat.

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I think Darius will likely have HBR already, which would leave him one tech away from Construction now (assuming he has Maths). He has enough pop to aggressively whip emergency defenders, so my worry - now that we're too late in the timeline for it to be a true rush - is that attacking Darius has a high chance of failure.

Also, remember that Hatty had actually farmed over her horse tile at one point earlier in the game. Granted, she probably has remedied that by now, but it is telling of the technological difference between the two opponents. Better for us to grow stronger by assimilating Hatty, and then when we meet the other continent (? well, at least the other civs) we can take out Darius and change espionage targets. That's the strategy I envisioned from the start, though.

Ok, I support your instincts and are OK with the plan to take out Hatty Swiss.

I think we'd be better off taking out Hatty. Darius might be too strong already.

Ok, guys, thanks for the input. I'll play this tomorrow evening CET, so feel free to chime in with more advice before then.

EDIT: especially about the number of axes to train and strategy to employ. As I see, we should go directly to Thebes, then backtrack for the city on the hill, then review. With defensive bonuses, I reckon at least two axes per defender, and a couple of Holkan to fend of War Chariots. What say you?

First off, keep in mind that we are currently burning 6gpt in unit costs. I would pull as many troops as we can out of other cities, risking a weaker border with Darius. Specifically, there is Holkan out in Mayapan that can be pulled away since there is no fog and it is a back-line city.

Second, scout out Hatties lands for current troop levels. We have open borders. Let's see what she has. We have a chariot in the south that can do exactly this. While you're at it, scout Darius' too just to be sure he isn't building up troops (apparently the AI has an opening behavior known as "The Dagger" where they move to rush someone, and it'd be bad to be caught unprepared).

Third, looking at our economy, keep in mind that we are going to tank our economy by doing an early rush. Which really shouldn't be too bad a thing: if we can complete Alphabet in time, then we will be able to catch up necessary technologies by throwing a pie in Darius' face.

I like the strategy of going for Thebes first. It will have the most troops and break Hatty's back, so to speak. I would bring along: 2-3 holkan, and 2.5 axes per defender. Thebes already has 60% cultural defense and the AI will whip troops when invaded. After we take Thebes and Heliopolis we can see what we will get for peace and go from there.

pindicator said:

After we take Thebes and Heliopolis we can see what we will get for peace and go from there.

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Are we allowed to extort tech with this variant?

6 turns ago Thebes had a single archer defending.

Yes we will crash our economy with this but remember we'll get substantial gold in looting and the captured cities should be a positive carry.

ungy said:

Are we allowed to extort tech with this variant?

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I felt not, but PMed Darrell this morning for confirmation and he replied that we may only extort techs we're allowed to research, which is more or less Alphabet.

As for rushing Egypt, I think sooner is better. We may be able to somewhat decoy the AI by bypassing Helio. So our SOD is next to helio, then moves to the mine next to Thebes, and only WC can then reach Thebes. If we're lucky the AI will reinforce Helio and won't be able to reach Thebes.

We could take Jud as soon as we get our initial rush built to help relations with the rest of the crowd.

If we leave one unit in each city (holkian or war, switch Uxmail to axe, MM Mutal and Lak to get 2 pop whips, I think in 6 turns we can assemble the following force: 8 axe, 3 Holkian, 1-2 char. I think best to go with that. Bring back the Persian scout and try to get the Egyptian scout back. For these things what really matters is the total number of units, not exactly what they are so get the most there ASAP.

Played an interesting handful of turns, before pausing:

Firstly noted that Hatty wants our Copper, but doesn't have any Iron to trade. Very Good. Redirect EPs to her, but didn't touch the slider.

Hit enter, and Shaka declares on Darius. Moved our chariot to the border to see what was going on and saw his puny stack of Impi and Archers being opposed by Darius's sword, axe and archers. I don't think a dogpile would be wise (but I did turn down Darius request to pile in on Shaka).

I was a few turns from being ready to get going when I checked Hatty's relations and saw that Darius is trading Hatty Iron for Clams and won't cancel it! This puts a damper on things somewhat.

Hatty's cities: Heliopolis (6 pop 2 archers), Thebes (7 pop 2 CG archers), Elephantine (1 archer), Memphis (4 pop 2 archers).

Press on, or turn back and finish Alphabet? I'm not much of a warmonger, so I'm for the latter option.

Why do the AIs make such ridiculous trades?

Iron does damper things, but I think we're in a now or never position. I think I would favour pressing onwards.

PS: What does everybody thing about the 3.03 patch? No gameplay changes, should we upgrade?

Are the saves compatable? Could some of us upgrade and others not? Because I'm in the middle of Epic 13: Potluck over at RealmsBeyond, I am standing pat until I finish that game. The policy at RB is to finish with the same version that you start, so I'm adhering to that. EDIT: They are okaying the 3.03 patch since it is confirmed to have no gameplay changes, so I am good to patch if we all choose to.

It is a darn shame about Darius trading Hatty iron. Is there any way we can pillage the trade route between the two of them? (I assume it is by road.) I really like ungy's idea for attacking Hatty.

I don't know if we want to bother giving Hatty any weight with those EPs. Aren't we planning on killing her off? Wouldn't those EPs be wasted then?

I would also finish Alphabet ASAP. Not for the tech extortion, (variant rules say specifically that all of our technology aside from Worker Techs & Alphabet must come from stealing) but because we are going to want to have at least one spy around to steal from Darius the moment our Great Spy comes about. (More thoughts about stealing after we deal with Hatty!)

@pindicator - RB is making a rare exception, and allowing us to patch during the game.

@ungy - I'd like to get your input about the war with Hatty in light of the Iron trade. (I'll see whether it could be pillaged on T1 of the war.)

@team - patching. Does anyone have a problem to download the patch? I've played two SGs where some had, and others didn't have, 1.74 and there weren't any problems. I've not had any DirectX problems, so there's no urgency from my side.

Swiss Pauli said:

@ungy - I'd like to get your input about the war with Hatty in light of the Iron trade. (I'll see whether it could be pillaged on T1 of the war.)

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I'm generally not too concerned about metals in an early axe rush, especially iron. Yes we could face axe/sword/spear now but that might be a net positive. AI is more likely to send axe/sword out of cities to attack us and axe, spear cost 52h and sword 60. If no metal can only build cheaper WC and archer. So AI has less units and not really any better. Axe is better but sword worse and spear much worse for AI.

Decent chance that Darius loses his second iron as if I remember right it's near Zulu and cancels anyway.

I would be more concerned that with the metal Egypt will start producing units and we need to hurry the rush.

@ungy - good analysis, I support your view that we should still atack.

Continue my set and scout around for Hatty's trade link with Darius and can't find it (the road connection you may see in a screenie was built later). Maybe the route is via our lands? Only one way to find out...





Nope. Still Iron for clams. Bugger. Stack feints toward Heliopolis and the chariots come in from the south towards the horses, which I decide not to pillage: rather face a War Chariot than an Axe, seeing as we can counter the former.

The Battle of Thebes






Lose, win, win, lose, win:






Hatty gave birth to a Prophet so we now own the Kashi Vishwanath. Woot. A WC attacked out of Helio and killed our axe (I should have given him Woody I for escort duty).

Moved the stack up to Helio, including wounded CR2 Axes. We have a 2 Holkan, Medic Chariot (he beat Hatty's first WC attack), and a shock axe in the forest to the north.






Now that our shock Axe in Thebes has healed, we could move out an axe and a Holkan to join the Helio assault group, which we might want to move in order to cut the road to Memphis. Another idea would be to let one of the northern holkan fall back in the hope that Helio's WC goes walkies.



Away from the frontlines, Shaka got peace with Darius after D showed battlefield compassion, awwww. Darius got a Pie in his face from us:





http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/96651/RBtS1b_BC-0260.CivBeyondSwordSave

Great turns Swiss! I am away tomorrow without internet access and won't be back until Tuesday. If my turn comes up, skip me.