Yelü Chucai's surprising ascent

Definitely Glib in Uzbek, already has library and 3 food resources so it can run 2 scientists and grow quite easily.

I'm not sure about market in karakorum when it has all these cottages to work. Maybe a barracks instead?

Construction and kill someone.
 
Not as "definitely" as I would have thought according to some sums I've done with a gazillion assumptions.

Happy to show the math, but the bottom line seems to be that up to Turn 300, we'll come out (surprisingly) with only one more Great Person if we build The Great Library in Uzbek (given a host of assumptions), and given that we've not got the two Scientists operating in a city with an Academy or Oxford although we would be merging Great Scientists into Karakorum a few turns sooner, we end up a tiny shave (i.e. a few percent) behind in terms of total beaker output if we build The Great Library in Uzbek.

Variables include; when we build the National Epic in Uzbek and Oxford Uni in Karkorum, when we switch to the Caste System to allow six Scientists in Uzbek, if we ever switch to Pacifism (assume 'no'), how much tech' trading we do to get to Education quickly, what tech' rate we run at given our unknown treasury, do we always pop Great Scientists (assume 'yes') and how are they used (assumed: Academy in Karakorum > 1 x bulb > merge the rest into Karakorum) and so on.

Arguably there's nothing in it, as Karakorum could very well start popping Great Engineers, or Uzbek a Great Artist or two given the National Epic, throwing the calculations out the door.

Pigswill - if you're still sure that Uzbek's the best option, could you show why? Thanks.
 
Regardless of other variables 2 scientists in Karakorum means working 3 fewer cottages (2 specs +1 food); the beaker production for scientists is unaffected by bureaucracy and is thus location independent, however the beaker production for cottages is affected by bureaucracy and thus it makes sense to me to have a cottage capital even in a specialist economy.

If we run caste (after whipping out our elepult army) then Uzbek can run 5 scientists at pop 8 + 2 scientists from glib while Karakorum can work 11 cottages>towns + 1 eng at pop 12. Karakorum could run 4 scientists + 2 from glib while working 2 corn and 6 cottages>towns at pop 12. Karakorum would get the same gppt with an increased chance of popping a GE instead of a GS, which may or may not be a bad thing.
 
I am assuming that woopdeedoo is planning to continue this set for a few more turns (?) ...

... if so, some thought for contemplation:

I'd look at firstly getting the population in Karakorum up (Corn) and also working Cottages as a priority, albeit Grasslands Horse Pasture isn't a bad yielding tile. I'd actually not hook up that second Ivory tile near Beshbalik in case an AI demands that we give them Ivory, which we don't want I'd suspect. Turfan's lakeside Plains Forest could be chopped maybe into a Lighthouse as we'll be running irrigation from that tile later. A Work Boat out of Visigoth might pay off better than a Granary first - grow with the Fish then whip the Granary. I'd be happy to run at 80%:science: and just get Construction in given our treasury. Trade Metal Casting to Asoka could work.
 
Asoka has no techs. Peter is the only civ more advanced than us at present IIRC. I am happy to hand over the game as well, seeing as it is silly to play 3 more turns. The next person can play the extra 3 turns :)
 
Asoka has Monarchy (and Priesthood), which I'd take for Metal Casting seeing we have unworkable Wine and Metal Casting's known by everyone else.

:confused: I still don't know what the position is regarding the location of The Great Library other than we're divided. On the basis of the calculations that I've done, I don't see any huge advantage one way or the other with Karakorum vs. Uzbek. Pigswill's laid out a rationale for Uzbek. FiveRings's preference is for Karakorum but won't object to Uzbek. woopdeedoo's preference is for Karakorum. If there's a strong reason for Karakorum over the arguably compelling combo of The Great Library - Philosophical trait - National Epic, I'm 'all ears'.

Whipping out a lot of Catapults and Elephants is going to be difficult, with really only Cimmerian, Karakorum, and Uzbek looking too good for a little while yet in terms of 'whippability'. Beshbalik is a small, nice production site, but will be limited to 'natural' production due to lack of food. Nonetheless, I'll see what I can do.
 
On first glance, P's calculations seem convincing. I think, though, that it boils down to the issue of GPTs as compared to research points. TGLIB in Karakorum accelerates the former - due to already extant GPT production - and decelerates the latter, the same thing applies - in the reverse - to having TGLIB in Uzbek. I, sor sure, can't make the math finding no ratio available. It seems that the answer depends on our plans and preferences. As a low-level player, I can't plan that far ahead, so I tend to agree with P: the ads related to getting TGLIB in Uzbek seem tangible while those of getting it in Kara seem vaguer.
The bottom line is then: OK, let's have TGLIB in Uzbek, if Cam doesn't come up with sophisticated ideas about the preferable use of faster-gotten GPs.
Cam's other points seem rational to me.
I also think that we better have a certain assault in mind before we start pumping up all these elephants. Have I missed arguments in favor of invading someone's territory as fast as possible? Sorry, if this is the case!
 
I'm not sure we've had detailed discussions about invading someone. I have assumed that us not having metal is going to be a major problem in the medium to long term, we may eventually pop metal by working mines long enough but its very unreliable. Its therefore more straightforward to steal someone else's.

On reflection there's going to be a period when having Oxford and Glib in capital will boost overall beakers, the length of that period depends on how long we take between building Oxford and scimeth. Before that period I think its better to keep Gib outside capital. once its obselete then its a non-issue. The issue of getting education will depend on whether we want liberalism badly enough to bulb towards it or instead we could settle GSs for long term benefit in Oxford city.
 
I think that we do need to 'break out' somehow to win this game. We could possibly just sit it our until Military Tradition and go with Cavalry, but we're getting locked in from all sides, haven't got great land, and 'peaceful diplomacy' is going to be difficult.

My inclination is to stick with the earlier plan of Cat's and War Elephants. To me, even though he's Protective, Saladin looks like a good target. He's isolated in terms of religion, and as far as I can tell, his core empire doesn't border any other nation, and therefore would be relatively easy to defend once captured.

In terms of a PPP, I've largely covered the key propositions already in some of the posts above;

Trade for 'Monarchy <> Metal Casting' with Asoka. I'd consider also getting Priesthood, but I'm wary that Qin might go WFYABTA and we could miss out on better deals down the track as a consequence.

Karakorum to grow with the Corn and work cottages. Unfortunately it might have to suffer some whips if we're putting together an invasion force. Thankfully Catapults are only 40:hammers: in Warlords.

Beshbalik can grow with the Ivory, so I'd do that. We could chop out a Forge before units.

Uzbek to get The Great Library, and work on The National Epic. When Construction's in, we can whip units and a Forge with overflow toward the National Epic.

Turfan is food poor, but nonetheless could benefit from a Lighthouse given the Lake - arguably expensive, but I think beneficial overall. Lots of forests for chops.

Cimmerian needs a Barracks, and could be a good unit pump. Should be working the Cow Pasture. It could also benefit from a Lighthouse given the three Lake tiles to assist with whip-regrow cycles.

Visigoth, as noted, perhaps should go with a Workboat, and eventually whip out a Granary.

Ning-hsia's Library build seems sensible in light of needing culture and the Gems' commerce haul. I'd work the forested Grasslands Hill until the Gem Mine is done.​

Tech-wise, as proposed, we could lift our research rate up to 80%:science: and get Construction in 5 turns. We could go different ways from there, but Horseback Riding for the Ger for the War Elephants seems sensible to me, even though Wang Kon has already researched it. Code of Laws would be nice, but I'm guessing that we'll have to use the whip for a little while before considering the Caste System.
 
Thanks for the PPP, Cam, looks OK with me on first reading.
I'd only be checking twice on the time needed to tech HBR and the preferability of another tradable tech, but would most likely come to the same: it has greater value than the Ker itself, being on the way to Cav, and my experience shows it's not gladly traded by the AIs.
 
I wouldn't bother too much with HbR coz I'm not sure how many ellies we'll be building and they'll pick up xp soon enough. I'd rather get CS earlier. We'll be better off building more cats than ellies (2:1, maybe 3:1) coz of collateral and iirc cats can kill in warlords.
 
I wouldn't bother too much with HbR coz I'm not sure how many ellies we'll be building and they'll pick up xp soon enough. I'd rather get CS earlier. We'll be better off building more cats than ellies (2:1, maybe 3:1) coz of collateral and iirc cats can kill in warlords.

Yes, cats kill and take cities in WL. I agree that we'll be better off with a high ratio of Cs vs WEs. It (almost) always helps to build the UBs as fast as possible though, it seems. CS is worthy of consideration, nevertheless. Especially if it can be traded for HBR, as questionnable as this seems to me.
 
Summary

No dramas this turnset - built The Great Library in Uzbek as kind of agreed in some manner.

Construction came in, and we've just about got Code of Laws. The AI's still ahead of us, most with Feudalism while they've all got Horseback Riding. Christianity was founded in Madras, India. The Great Lighthouse was built by China. Nobody's WHEOOHRN. Hinduism floated into our empire, but we're still pagans.

Begun the whipping. We've got a War Elephant and four Catapults. We're one-third of our way toward getting up The National Epic. A Great Scientist will pop in a couple of turns. Added Wine and Gems to our luxuries. The only resource deals we can make is with most people's worst enemy; Wang Kon ... although if we cough up a lot of resources, Saladin will trade us Iron.

Run Through ...
Spoiler :


Opening Turn (113)

Took the Monarchy + 10:gold: <> Metal Casting with Asoka. It's lopsided, but as noted, Asoka was the only leader that didn't already have Metal Casting. Decided to leave Priesthood out of the trade because of WFYABTA.

Whipped the Worker out of Uzbek.

80%:science:

Turn 1 (114)

Uzbek: Worker > National Epic
Turfan: Granary > Lighthouse

Turn 2 (115)

With four turns to go to Construction, and an empire with eventually two seafood to work, I opt for a four-turn Work Boat out of Beshbalik before it gets on with unit production. I did stray from the plan which was a Forge, but I felt we needed to get started on units, so went with the Work Boat rather than undertaking the lengthy Forge build. That Work Boat's currently near Ning Hsia.

Our Great Engineer arrives in Uzbek.

ibt

Christianity is founded in Madras. China builds The Great Lighthouse.

Turn 3 (116)

Bump up to 90%:science: to get Construction in sooner.



Turn 4 (117)

Cimmerian: Granary > Barracks

Turn 5 (118)

Construction > Code of Laws

Tech' back down to 20%:science:

Beshbalik: Work Boat > Catapult

Turn 6 (119)

Science now up to 30%:science:

Karakorum: Market (interrupt) > War Elephant

Turn 7 (120)

Uzbek: National Epic (interrupt) > Catapult

Cimmerian: Whip Barracks

ibt

Peter picks up the free Great Artist from Music.

Turn 8 (121)

Beshbalik: Catapult > Catapult
Karakorum: Whip War Elephant
Uzbek: Whip Catapult
Cimmerian: Barracks > Lighthouse

ibt

Cimmerian picks up Hinduism, but we decline the invitation to adopt the faith.

Turn 9 (122)

Karakorum: War Elephant > Catapult
Uzbek: Catapult > National Epic

Turn 10 (123)

Beshbalik: Catapult > Catapult
Turfan: Lighthouse > Catapult
Cimmerian: Lighthouse > War Elephant
Karakorum: Catapult > War Elephant
Uzbek: National Epic (interrupt) > Catapult

Science up to 60%:science:

Two pop whips:
Spoiler :

Karakorum ... War Elephant with up to 22:hammers: in the bin, or Catapult with 1:hammers: or 2:hammers: only in the bin due to the Forge.
Other cities ... War Elephant with up to 29:hammers: in the bin, or Catapult with up to 9:hammers: in the bin.


Screen Shots:












Other Stuff:

As noted, there's a Work Boat near Ning Hsia. Great Scientist is due to pop in two turns, and my guess would be to use them to found the Karakorum Academy. There's a Warrior to the north east of Cimmerian that I envisaged would be destined for that city just for a military presence.

One thought was to flip into Organised Religion and run out a Jewish Missionary from Uzbek, and send them into Ning Hsia to spread Judaism for the border pop. After five turns, go back to the cheaper Paganism.
 

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I'd agree with Saladin as our target. There's plenty of forest waiting to be chopped. Raze Khurasan, keep the rest.

I assume that FiveRings is UP.
 
I'll be able to go through Cam's overview and look at the save this evening. Tomorrow at the latest will come up with a PPP. If there are some general or not so general considerations, please, come forth.
 
Well, I guess this will be a turnset of milunit building with an occasional OF into NE except for the development of the Eastern Province.
I'll try to use the two-pop as much as possible - thank you for the explicit guidelines, Cam!
I don't understand well while the workers are chopping outside of our territory around Turfan - isn't this a very low return compared to the forests in our terriroty there? I don't see health reasons to avoid chopping with higher returns, so ?

I don't very well understand the two workers in the Eastern Province, but assume they are on their way to /have been building roard. I'll use them to road Hsi and utilize the one additional resource we have under forest there.

The idea of building a monastery instead of continuing with the library seems to be a waste, asthere is already about 30 hammers invested in the library, so I'll just keep toiling. The idea of getting the second ivory hooked might not be that bad, so once I finish in the East, I'll proceed with it.

I am planning to continue teching on to CS, and I think I won't be able to use whatever elacats I produce and move towards Sal.
 
The idea/proposal was to use Organised Religion to be able to produce a Jewish Missionary without the need to build a Monastery in Uzbek. Once that Missionary spreads Judaism in Ning Hsia, given we're swapping back into Paganism, Ning Hsia will get +1:culture:/turn. Therefore it'll get that border pop for the seafood (sooner than via the Library). Organised Religion is more costly than Paganism, so I'd flip back to Paganism after the 'cooling off' period of the first switch of civics. It's just a thought - opportunity cost also of Uzbek using :hammers: for something else admittedly.

I'm not a fan of hooking up that second Elephant. If we trade it, or cave into an AI demand, it'll give our future enemies the capacity to produce War Elephants themselves, which are devastating at this point of the game. Arguably there are few/no 'super' trade opportunities as it is.
 
The idea/proposal was to use Organised Religion to be able to produce a Jewish Missionary without the need to build a Monastery in Uzbek. Once that Missionary spreads Judaism in Ning Hsia, given we're swapping back into Paganism, Ning Hsia will get +1:culture:/turn. Therefore it'll get that border pop for the seafood (sooner than via the Library). Organised Religion is more costly than Paganism, so I'd flip back to Paganism after the 'cooling off' period of the first switch of civics. It's just a thought - opportunity cost also of Uzbec using :hammers: for something else admittedly.

I'm not a fan of hooking up that second Elephant. If we trade it, or cave into an AI demand, it'll give our future enemies the capacity to produce War Elephants themselves, which are devastating at this point of the game. Arguably there are few/no 'super' trade opportunities as it is.

All right.
I'll post the save this evening.
 
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