Nothing says imperialism like people telling other cultures that they know what's in "their best interest". It's not bending over backwards to not include them in the game against their wishes, it's being respectful. We might not like it, but we're a bunch of virtual tourists, and frankly there are plenty of other civilizations to represent without pissing off people who don't want to have their culture put into a video game.
The Lost Civilization
- Thread starter Louis XXIV
- Start date
That is illogical. If they feel that it is disrespectful to include them as a civ then we should not do so. It doesn't affect ciV's gameplay quality nor is the definition of 'offensive act' limited to just 'hurt physically'. It also covers other aspects such as verbal abuse. There is a reason why we have forum moderators & rules despite of having 'Freedom of speech'.
BTW nobody practices 100% freedom of speech. I can even name dozen of European countries which restrict freedom of speech in their laws to some extent.
So we should realize that freedom has its own limitations & we should understand it instead of exploiting other people just because we can!
I agree that the intention of Civ is not to insult cultures, rather entertain & educate people. But if a certain culture has objection about being included we should respect their difference of opinion rather than forcing our perspective down their throat.
bouncymischa
Synthetic Genie
So in the process of teaching people to be better informed and more respectful of other people's cultures and personal values we should... trample all over those values and be disrespectful for them? A culture finds the act of depicting a venerated ancestor in media objectionable. Therefore, we should depict said ancestor in media in order to teach people the fact that said culture finds the very act objectionable! Sounds like a brilliant plan.
Not to mention there's a certain irony in a company choosing to behave in a responsible and principles fashion and opt not to simply follow the bottom line... and then getting called out for not pandering to the fanbase and the market.
It does seem a sad indictment of modern society, when even simple acts of respect and consideration get termed "appeasement". I'm pretty certain Firaxis has found an adequate substitute for the Pueblo, and I can't really see any argument that the Pueblo would have been somehow superior to any other culture Firaxis chooses to replace them with, so it's not like the quality of BNW will be any less for Firaxis' choice, and I can't see how commercially it'll affect BNW sales. (If anything, the fact that Firaxis chose to make a principled decision reflects better on them as a company than if they hadn't.)
The really odd thing is that it seems to come down to a cultural conflict, between one culture that finds things objectionable and another culture that doesn't... but with the argument being that, rather than tolerate the diversity of cultures and belief, that people should simply forge ahead and steamroller over anyone else in an effort to crush such diversity. But I suppose that is the product of the modern ethos of individualism, where the individual is always right...
Yes, people ought not to do that.
Then again, nobody is.
Such negativity and fatalism here. An attitude of condescension and belligerence is being projected on the mere act of communication. The world is not a Larry David television program where everyone has this huge chip on their shoulder.
Except the post preceding mine does almost exactly that, which is why I even used quotes.
Oh, pokeravi is not talking about telling the Pueblos what's in their best interests. He's basically just saying Firaxis should just refuse to appease them, ignore their wishes, and put the Pueblo out there.
Which I don't agree with, of course. I do feel that actually communicating with the Pueblo Council is alright, if A) it's tactful and B) it utilizes means that the council have made available specifically for the general public to contact them (no jamming one's feet into the door in any sense).
No, I read his post. He said that, then he simultaneously said that it's in the Pueblo's best interest if they were in the game, which is a weird thing to add when his argument is that Firaxis should do what they feel is necessary, and obviously it's really not his call to make.
So yeah, that's what I'm talking about.
Carl5872
Prince
I agree that there's no harm in respectful communication; however I fear that it may not get anywhere to include the Pueblo/leader. Im not sure as to specifically why they're opposed, but think of asking a Christian their thoughts on including Jesus as a leader, or a Muslim as adding Muhammad. Even if it is done out of respect, in my view as a Christian, you would be profaning Christ by lowering Him to be a character in a video game, especially when it involves denouncing people, and ordering soldiers to war, etc. If it is for similar reasons they don't want their culture used in this manner then there is no way to convince them. Even if is done 100% accurate with respect and dignity, they may just not want their remembered Hero/Culture to be profaned by being cast as an enemy you are supposed to invade when playing against him.
No one is really railing against "the mere act of communication" here. Most of us are happy about Firaxis' act of communicating with the Pueblos and the fact that they were cool with the Pueblo's desires re: their inclusion in the game. This seems like a rather uncomplicated issue to me.
Beefie
Warlord
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I agree that we shouldn't inundate the website with our pleas for them to reconsider or worse try to explain to them how they're "wrong". But a single, informed and tactful message for further information will at least show them the fans are sorry that they are not included, although I doubt we will learn much more than what Dennis already told us.
But anyway, if anyone does get a response please keep us posted.
But anyway, if anyone does get a response please keep us posted.
Gucumatz
JS, secretly Rod Serling
- Joined
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If you want a sample of the messages some of us sent... check here on the 2K forums:
http://forums.2kgames.com/showthread.php?217326-Brave-new-world!/page10
Gees, reading this here feels so fatalist, its sort of funny seeing a contrast between forums.
http://forums.2kgames.com/showthread.php?217326-Brave-new-world!/page10
Gees, reading this here feels so fatalist, its sort of funny seeing a contrast between forums.
Gucumatz, my friend, let me share my observations about internet forums.
Some folks are very rigid in their mindsets. If something doesn't snap into place perfectly, it's a no-go. There will be no connecting of dots, no leaping over gaps. If an obstacle of any kind is encountered, then it's a screeching full stop and total rejection of the endeavor.
An example that's relevant to this forum: whenever we have a poll, there will invariably be several responses that amount to "I picked other, because none of the choices offered matched my preferred answer perfectly". There might have been a choice very close, but compromise is unthinkable, so it's "other" or "none of the above". Of course, it is generally impractical to have a poll that offers every conceivable choice in the universe, but that's the level of exactitude some insist on. To them it's vital to maintain those strict standards, even if it means their contribution is nil.
Now, the concerns raised here are valid: it does no good to be pushy or pedantic in efforts to communicate. But the divide here is between those who believe that there's something positive to gain versus those who dwell on the worst-case scenario. Perhaps the lack of trust is reasonable, because they haven't been party to the discussion on the other forum where there were a few guys hammering out the specifics on how to be tactful and measured in the message. But personally, I don't think it's a "grave insult" to try to sow a change of heart.
pokeravi
Warlord
It IS in their best interests since the majority of Americans don't know a thing about Pueblo history and culture. They just don't understand that and they are more concerned about being insulted rather than having their culture/history shared.
But the ultimate decision should be up to Firaxis and they shouldn't have to appease the Pueblo just because they might be insulted. Whether the Pueblo (or any other group of peoples for that matter) support or oppose the inclusion of the civ in the game shouldn't matter. It sets a bad precedent for other video game companies who might want to include sensitive material in their games but will refrain from doing so because of controversy. I mean, where do you draw the line? Do you not depict slavery in games because it might offend African Americans? Do you refrain from depicting God in game because it is offensive to religious people? Honestly this isn't that different from the South Park episode where Mohammed wasn't shown even though he was originally supposed to be (except this time the Pueblo aren't threatening to behead the Firaxis devs).
The presumption that you know what's in their best interests and that "they don't understand" is pretty problematic to me. Do you think that the Pueblo people did not hear the same spiel from the Firaxis people?
Firaxis could have probably ignored them and included him anyways, but given how much they try to make their games in a way that is educational, respectful, and intelligent, it would have been kind of hypocritical for them to do so. Hell, I'd still buy the game, but all these people in this thread acting as if they've had something taken from them are hilarious.
Before PAX, we didn't even consider the Pueblo a possibility, they showed up in hardly any polls I saw. Suddenly, people are looking to start letter-writing campaigns. If you feel that strongly about it, I say go for it, it can't hurt. Personally. I'd love to play as the Pueblo, and I do think that Civ has some educational/culture value to it. But when we starting pretending to be aggrieved because we can't play as the spiritual leader of a people that most of us know relatively little about, it starts to look like the most ridiculous kind of privilege.
P.S. It's not "appeasement," ffs.
.
cybrxkhan
Asian Xwedodah
You know, we may think that they don't understand that their culture/history could be shared and that they're more concerned about being insulted.
But maybe, you know, from their perspective, they may think that we don't understand how we're utterly mocking their existence and culture and that we're more concerned about commercializing off their existence for edutainment?
Thinking about things from different perspectives is difficult, yes, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. It's hard, but our perspective is not the only one, nor is it the obviously correct one.
And anyways, the fact that Firaxis announced they were thinking of the Pueblo probably means a lot of people will read up on them now, so there'll still be more people learning about them, thinking, "Hey, who were these Pueblo folks Firaxis wanted to include? What's so special about them? What sort of cultural reasons might explain why they would prefer not to be depicted in a video game?". Heck, I learned a thing or two after Firaxis announced them.
Gucumatz
JS, secretly Rod Serling
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And if you checked the link I provided, each one of the people who wrote in certainly didn't take a stance Pokeravi did. I know I didn't. But Civilization sells millions of copies. I suggested in my message that it would be a way for them to reach more people, but that it would be a message they could control. But certainly its just a message and its often hard to understand for many people how different cultures are... simply different.
I am half Kaqchikel myself and I can say that certainly some of my family has different ways of thinking than what some would call "standard" thinking in the west.
I am half Kaqchikel myself and I can say that certainly some of my family has different ways of thinking than what some would call "standard" thinking in the west.
ferretbacon
Obsessor
I'm sure it occured to the Pueblo that the game was a good medium for "spreading their story" and "sharing their history."
Perhaps they don't have that agenda though? Just saying, not everyone cares that much to talk about themselves.
Perhaps they don't have that agenda though? Just saying, not everyone cares that much to talk about themselves.
Gucumatz
JS, secretly Rod Serling
- Joined
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Perhaps.
But there are also another 10,000 hypothetical perhaps situations. Thing is you can never find out the complete truth unless you try, so [I and others] might as well write them and see why personally. Everything else is just speculation of what they think, without any actual way to think the way they think.
cybrxkhan
Asian Xwedodah
Heck, I'm full-blood Asian myself (Vietnamese, though there may be a bit of Chinese blood far, far back), and even though I was born in the states I still find aspects of Western culture puzzling at best and downright terrible at worst. In some ways, even though I was more vocal about my distaste for aspects of Western culture when I was younger, I feel like I've actually become slightly less "Western" as I grew up. Maybe because I've grown more and more aware of how the media can bastardize Asian cultures. I can see how Native Americans would likewise not be pleased with the media as well.
It could have occurred to the Pueblo that the game would have been a medium to share a bastardized version of their history and spread a mockery of their story.
I'm not trying to flame you or anything, but I'm just saying that that's how the Pueblo could have seen it. It might be obvious to us that video games are great for learning, but it might be obvious to them that video games are just another medium for bastardizing native american cultures.
Or maybe indeed as you say they just have no interest in sharing. Who knows.
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